Question regarding salvage bans

[Spiritreaver]

Wow, came back to see if the OP ever gave a reason for this thread and find some dude carrying a torch for his long-lost banned homies.....

[Rohelius]

Cheaters should stay banned and they should track their payment methods more aggressively so that they don't come back ever again to FFXI. ( or get tossed to FF14)

Fact is those type of people will always be looking for a way to cheat the system and there is no lesson learned from a temporary ban even if its 5 years they will do it again if the Gil is high enough because being in a elite LS or being a Elite geared player is more important then anything or anyone and is their #1 goal in the game.

[Kiba]

I think really the main consensus came to the following facts:
1) The players who committed act in the salvage exploiting the bug were wrong - no matter what factors, circumstances,
even accounting in SE's responsibility for not fixing the bug for more than a year. There is no point in arguing as the players broke the terms of service. No one forced them to do so. So wrong is wrong.
2) A lot agree however that SE could of handled the salvage issue a lot better considering the inconsistency in who they decided to suspend, ban, and warn. Yes, I do recall at the time there was a very well-known player among the community who confessed he had actively engaged in the salvage item duplications yet was only issued a warning. This questions up to date the fairness of the bannings.

So my inquiry about the salvage bans for our wonderful community representatives Camate, Rukkirii, Bayohne, Mochi to address to the appropriate department would be as follows:
The salvage bans that took place in January 2009 was an event memorable to date for being the first instance of Square Enix taking serious action on legitimate players breaking the terms of service involving abuse of exploits. Many players agree to date that the decision to punish was proper as it was an expected consequence for breaking the terms of service. In other words if you don't follow the rules, you don't get to play. Simple as is. However many also feel the punishments for the salvage exploits could of been handled a lot better in terms of fairness in issuing temp bans, permanent bans, and warnings. At the same time the event made it more visible that Playonline Center representatives are not very helpful nor professional towards answering calls, which make Square Enix as a company look very bad in terms of customer service. Two years have passed. While the salvage bans are nothing more than history now it would be very nice to hear from SE with an official response to concerns many players have about the incident. Like a fellow poster had mentioned the banned have been punished for 2 years, etc. Life is short. Are they really be willing to be punished another 2 years? Chances are even by that time interest in the game would not be the same. The fortunate case at this time is that most likely they are still interested in the game which means possibly more re-subscribers more revenue for the company. Many other MMO's have more lenient policies in place for breaking terms of service by utilizing penalties as ways to punish but maintain good customer service and subscribers. Only if the offending player commits act detrimental to the whole player base that a permanent ban to be enforced. Can Square-Enix review this as a possibility to implement in the future? And can something be done about the notorious negative customer service at the service center(call/chat)? The way of business practiced in Japan has a lot of honor and is respectful, however on an international global scale customer service is very important. Just like how SE responded by handling misconduct, it would be appreciating to have a response like this as an example to alleviate current concerns regarding stuff like job adjustments, relic/mythic/emp 99 implementations : that SE really is listening and is thoughtful on what the player base really thinks. Perhaps implementing a customer support area with support tickets in forums like most developer companies would be very great here. Thank you for forwarding my inquiry. /bow

To all fellow players. I have friends who were banned but also I have friends who strongly engage in arguments over who was right and wrong during the incident. Which is why I try to speak from both perspectives. I hope my inquiry does get to the proper channel at SE so we can have a response that they really care about players and how they as a company intend to improve on their customer service. To the players who were banned, if out of the slightest luck you are given return please consider carefully what you have done wrong and not do it again as it really is not worth it to lose so much work over greed and lose integrity. Thanks for reading.

[SNK]

In a nutshell they cheated and got banned.

For those of you needing some laughs...

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/688...read?highlight=

[Alhanelem]

If a player was banned during the salvage bannings and they then went on to create a new account, would this account be libel to be banned ?

I have a reason for asking and i will share that later.

Why would getting banned on one account automatically predispose you to being banned on another?

And why are you specifically naming Salvage bans? Wouldnt the answer be applicable to any and all bans?

Why the hell is this topic coming up again anyway? Make another account if you want to play that badly, and suck up the fact you got banned and you deserved it.

1) The players who committed act in the salvage exploiting the bug were wrong - no matter what factors, circumstances,
even accounting in SE's responsibility for not fixing the bug for more than a year. There is no point in arguing as the players broke the terms of service. No one forced them to do so. So wrong is wrong.
2) A lot agree however that SE could of handled the salvage issue a lot better considering the inconsistency in who they decided to suspend, ban, and warn. Yes, I do recall at the time there was a very well-known player among the community who confessed he had actively engaged in the salvage item duplications yet was only issued a warning. This questions up to date the fairness of the bannings.

This is pretty much accurate. I don't think anyone disagrees that it could have been handled better, but the fact is, the people who were banned did violate the ToS/user agreement/license agreement/whatever.

[Kitkat]

If a player was banned during the salvage bannings and they then went on to create a new account, would this account be libel to be banned ?

I have a reason for asking and i will share that later.

To answer your question, directly from the Terms of Service User agreement you "agree" to every time you log in:

In addition, SQUARE ENIX shall be entitled to terminate any FINAL FANTASY XI Service Account (immediately and without notice) of any User who (1) was previously suspended or terminated by SQUARE ENIX and who SQUARE ENIX believes (in its sole discretion) re-registered using different registration information in order to circumvent or bypass such suspension or termination, or (2) SQUARE ENIX believes (in its sole discretion, based upon any information available, including registration and account information) that such User is enabling or assisting another User to conduct any Prohibited Activities of any kind.

@Zikon
Exploitation of a flawed game mechanic (AKA a bug that unexpectedly duplicates items by breaking alliance as items drop into pool) is considered a cheat. Heck, SE banned for less (mule accounts growing grass then selling to npc were banned during RMT circumvention tactics, whether they were actually RMT or not). It also states in the ToS that they can and will ban you outright if they find through investigation methods that you created an unfair advantage through exploits, hacks, bugs, or other forms of cheating.

2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software designed to modify the Game and gameplay. In addition, you may not take advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay.

No matter how much you sugar coat it to make it seem "alright" the fact remains that it obviously wasn't "alright" or they wouldn't have been banned in the first place. The fact you are trying to misconstrue the meaning of "Unfair advantage" is interesting also. Because a person has 2 accounts and possible 2 sources of which to log into FFXI, they are creating an unfair advantage by playing 2 characters at once? This is not true, if anything a person playing one character has a better advantage than you do because they have undivided attention to one character. Someone playing 2 has divided attention between the two. The only real advantage they have over anyone else is controlling the speed in which they get status cures, cures, or buffs, and controlling hate in a mininal conflicting environment. These are all standard game mechanics we all abide by every time we play, the only difference with 2 characters is you directly control what the 2 characters do as opposed to 1.

So because someone can Alt+tab to another window, or sit next to another machine (or even hold it in their lap) and play two characters they are automatically cheating? I'm not sure how that will work out for you seeing as you are lumping everyone into a 3rd party software using group when that is not always the case. This makes arguments using this as evidence inaccurate. However...once again bringing up the TOS in light of 3rd party usage:

2.4 Private Servers. You may not create, operate, participate in or use any unauthorized servers intended to emulate the Game.

2.5 Data Mining. You may not intercept, mine or otherwise collect information from the Game using unauthorized third party software.

2.6 Hacking and Circumvention. You may not hack, disassemble, decompile, or otherwise modify the Game or server computer code, whether the Game code is located on a DVD, Blu-rayTM disc, your computer/console or on SQUARE ENIX’s servers, except as expressly permitted by SQUARE ENIX or applicable law.

2.7 Modifying or Creating Derivative Software. You may not modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game or Service in any way not expressly authorized by SQUARE ENIX, and may not make any derivative works of the Game.

By definition, use of any 3rd party software is grounds for suspension or termination of an account, yes. In this instance you are correct, but not for the reason you think. It isn't so much that it gives an unfair advantage (at its base widower was only just what the name implies...a way to play in windowed mode allowing PC users to alt+tab nothing more), but because it is not SE authorized software being used in conjunction with their software. Something they don't have direct control over nor can monitor directly. Now, this section also includes anyone who has ever created dat mods, done dat mining for information, or even simply swapped dats to make finding something easier (golden salvage chest anyone?) an offender. Meaning just about any PC user is guilty in one form or another and should be banned by this standard alone (whew, then developers wouldn't have to kill this game slowly).

Further more, to refute any "Those didn't exist at the time and shouldn't have been used...." etc banter, you should read the agreement carefully before clicking agree each time you play. Very good reasons as to why:

The terms of this User Agreement supersede any conflicting terms in any edition of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Manual.

SQUARE ENIX may update the list of License Limitations at www.playonline.com/ff11us/support at any time. The current License Limitations are as follows:

Meaning, that as they revise, change, amend, or otherwise add further restrictions on this, you are agreeing to follow the ToS each time you click "Agree" before being able to log into your character on FFXI. Additionally, this agreement, in virtual form, supersedes any initial agreement you signed up with that may have been missing these restrictions, such as the 2003 agreement which was very bare compared to agreement we all acknowledge every time we log on now.

[Tagrineth]

There's many, many ways to play more than 1 account at a time that doesn't involve cheating. You can use seperate systems, and even partition your hard drive, and run a separate FFXI off each one on the same PC without using windower. Anyone who thinks the only thing someone could be doing was using windower is obviously just dumb.

You don't even need to partition. The client allows multiple instances to begin with.

[Tamoa]

Guys.... It's been THREE years since the salvage bans, not two. :P

Anyways - yes, Kiba's post hits the nail on the head more or less. It could definitely have been handled a lot better by SE. But the people that took part in salvage/Sandworm duping, had to know the risk - ignorance is no excuse really, it was pretty obvious what they were doing was wrong in SE's eyes.

However, I doubt that we will see a post by a SE rep in this thread - other than explaining why it's been locked, if things get out of hand. And I also doubt we will see a post by a player saying "I got banned for salvage duping but obtained a new char using the same info as with the banned one". So yeah, again not sure what exactly the OP wants to achieve making this thread.

[Vagrua]

Also no way in hell they will reverse old bans, it's hard enough to reverse mistaken banning let alone this.

Well, if they had more than a years worth of logs (as they stated) to perform the bans, I'm sure they might still have those logs laying around somewhere to unban.

550 player bans doesn't sound like too much of a blow to a game with over 500k subscribers at the time?

(November 22, 2008) Now in its sixth year of service, FINAL FANTASY XI has a robust community of 500,000 subscribers and more than 1.7 million player characters from around the world. The series continues to evolve and expand, offering newcomers and fans alike an immersive, engrossing and engaging universe to traverse, defend and explore. source

[saevel]

The reason they got banned wasn't that they were abusing a game mechanic, it was because they were deliberately trying to hide it from SE. That is why some got banned but others didn't, SE went looking for evidence that they tried to hide it or told others not to report it. They searched through the games logs which are stored on the server, this doesn't include things said on private vent servers, messengers or through forums. So just because someone was spouting off on an outside channel doesn't mean they were spouting off inside the game.

Lesson learned: don't try to hide things from SE.