Real PvP can we have it PLEASE S.E

[Jackaverted]

Sleepga is used because not only does it wipe shadows, but it also cause's the sleep status effect. Even with a DoT on it will take one game tick to wake up, meaning that for approx 3s your standing there slept. This gives the RDM time to apply silence / paralyze to block reapplication of utsusemi and to force you to go onto the defense. After you wake up the RDM's next move will be Sleep 1, followed by bind or grav.

If your intent is to wipe shadows, as a Red Mage you have Diaga which has a casting time of 1.5 seconds (half the sleepga casting time) for 12 MP and a very quick recast timer. Because of that, you shouldn't need to worry about landing Silence /immediately/, instead your first move should usually be Gravity. Even if you silence an opponent that relies on shadows, they can just flee away in attempt to waste the duration partially. With Gravity they cannot flee away, nor can they get close enough to you in order to start pressuring you into defensive action. This is also a wonderful time to implement Saboteur, as it enhances Gravity to the point of near-immobility. And if they get shadows up again, oh look Diaga is back up and now all shadow timers are down, allowing for enfeebling without needing to immediately silence. Addle+Slow combination sends recast timers straight to hell. Or, you can even Diaga > Break (since the DoT damage from Diaga does not cancel Break) and have enough time to land every enfeeble you wish.

Then it turns into a slow drawn out kiting match where the RDM is keeping you debuffed (silence / para / slow / poison II) and leeching your HP away with Drain / Aspir. Eventually you will die, it's only a matter of time. Sab Poison II is 20hp/tick, followed by Bio II for 5~6 and three of the ele debuffs for 5~6 each. That much -HP/tick is going to kill even the Aegis PLD tank from earlier, the one that sat there and had a HF VS MNK beat on him for five min while disengaged.

DoT kiting is also not a very reliable option for PvP. Even if you can successfully keep a target away from you for a while, resistance to Gravity/Bind would skyrocket too quickly to be able to maintain distance for fifteen minutes. There is really no "eventually," the longer the fights last, the weaker an enfeebler will become. To be honest someone could even allow a Red Mage to kite him at the beginning, just to build resistance to major enfeebles and be able to attack without being impeded.

Sab Poison II is 20hp/tick

What is this, I don't even.

[saevel]

Did some Brenner last night with LSmates one of which went rdm. Sure while Rdm is beastly in PvP it is hardly unbeatable, especially as was mentioned previously. "Teamwork." Although I suppose it is too much of a stretch to expect people to work together in PvP when they are clamoring to do everything else in a MMO by themselves with their 3 mules. Well news flash... that sort of playstyle isn't going to help you in PvP.

Anyways we had a blast last night. Nothing in FFXI will ever give you the rush you feel when facing another player(s). It almost feels like a different game, because your strategies, and approach are so different from the mindless zerging/procing of normal PvE. It is a fantastic way to get to know people, and really gives the game experience a new leash on life for players bored to tears with repetitive collection of magian blah blah blah.

If you don't like PvP fine. Congratulations even. The fact is though if it was given some attention, and revamped to be more accessible with less hassle people would do it more often. W/e resources spent on it pay dividends, because it is the epitome of "reusable content" a.k.a. MMO gold.

No matter how many times you have PvP'd when you face someone using a different strategy or job combo it is unlike previous experiences.

Let me guess .... they tried to melee.

RDM should never melee in PvP, they should be kiting and treating other players as NM's with 1600~2000HP.

"Teamwork" means jack squat because no matter what you do on one side, the other side can do as well. It won't be three vs one RDM, it'll be three vs one RDM + two BLU, or some other combination. What your saying is that multiple people beat a single RDM, but you completely forget that the RDM / BLU / PLD has two other players with them.

The whole point of all this is that FFXI is balanced around PvE, players teaming up vs horribly overpowered monsters. PvP isn't going to work due to how the abilities and specializations were divided up amongst the jobs. Right now PvP seems "fun" because there is no reward. The moment they include someone on the level of a VWNM body's into the event, you'll see a flood of players. Players will quickly figure out that if they play as groups of RDM / BLU / PLD's they will win the most and therefor get the most points for their gear. Players who do not have those jobs leveled / geared will feel bad as their left out / behind and get beaten constantly.

[Urteil]

A whole bunch of illogical shit.

I'm talking about a single person killing a single Red Mage.
As in 1 vs. 1
In case you can't understand that's a single person fighting another single person.
If you aren't still on board, let's represent people as oranges. You'd have two oranges in your basket.
And to get more specific, my Dark Knight vs your mythical invincible nonsense.


You haven't transferred to get your easy 41 100 byne bills yet. Fuck it. I'll give you 61 I was going to turn them in tonight to the Goblin anyway.




*** There's also a lot of items in this game that make very little sense. I call them Ballista items, go look at equipment like the Jurfu's cloak or Arete Del Sol, or the weird ass augments they put on Abyssea items - there's more balancing than you think.

[saevel]

If your intent is to wipe shadows, as a Red Mage you have Diaga which has a casting time of 1.5 seconds (half the sleepga casting time) for 12 MP and a very quick recast timer. Because of that, you shouldn't need to worry about landing Silence /immediately/, instead your first move should usually be Gravity. Even if you silence an opponent that relies on shadows, they can just flee away in attempt to waste the duration partially. With Gravity they cannot flee away, nor can they get close enough to you in order to start pressuring you into defensive action. This is also a wonderful time to implement Saboteur, as it enhances Gravity to the point of near-immobility. And if they get shadows up again, oh look Diaga is back up and now all shadow timers are down, allowing for enfeebling without needing to immediately silence. Addle+Slow combination sends recast timers straight to hell. Or, you can even Diaga > Break (since the DoT damage from Diaga does not cancel Break) and have enough time to land every enfeeble you wish.



DoT kiting is also not a very reliable option for PvP. Even if you can successfully keep a target away from you for a while, resistance to Gravity/Bind would skyrocket too quickly to be able to maintain distance for fifteen minutes. There is really no "eventually," the longer the fights last, the weaker an enfeebler will become. To be honest someone could even allow a Red Mage to kite him at the beginning, just to build resistance to major enfeebles and be able to attack without being impeded.



What is this, I don't even.

You don't have a clue on RDM for PvP. Have you ~ever~ fought a MNK or BLU before?

The gradual resistance is very slow. You'll get more then enough spells off to kill the target before resistance every becomes an issue. The whole point of those spells is to reduce the options available to the player and force them to spend their time on items and not combating you. You deliberately avoided addressing the real reason you use sleep, the stun effect. If the other player hasn't used a poison pot, that's just a bonus. You kill them with drain / aspir and DoT's over time, typically within 5 min but someone with a ton of items can last 10 min.

Poison II is 10hp/tick for 120 seconds, 40 ticks for 400 damage.

Sab doubles both the duration and DoT effect of Poison II. You get 20hp/tick at 240 seconds, 80 ticks for 1600 damage. Combined with drain spam it means your target eventually dies. This is for a one vs one contest where your just running them around. Which is ridiculously easy to do. In a team vs team fight, you would Sab Paralyze II onto the MNK, DNC, SAM or whomever on the other team relies on JA's the most.

[Urteil]

You don't have a clue on RDM for PvP. Have you ~ever~ fought a MNK or BLU before?

The gradual resistance is very slow. You'll get more then enough spells off to kill the target before resistance every becomes an issue. The whole point of those spells is to reduce the options available to the player and force them to spend their time on items and not combating you. You deliberately avoided addressing the real reason you use sleep, the stun effect. If the other player hasn't used a poison pot, that's just a bonus. You kill them with drain / aspir and DoT's over time, typically within 5 min but someone with a ton of items can last 10 min.

Poison II is 10hp/tick for 120 seconds, 40 ticks for 400 damage.

Sab doubles both the duration and DoT effect of Poison II. You get 20hp/tick at 240 seconds, 80 ticks for 1600 damage. Combined with drain spam it means your target eventually dies. This is for a one vs one contest where your just running them around. Which is ridiculously easy to do. In a team vs team fight, you would Sab Paralyze II onto the MNK, DNC, SAM or whomever on the other team relies on JA's the most.

/sch Sublimation wakes you like poison.
Its called resist gravity, erase and poisona.

You are terrible at PvP because you seem to not understand the power of resistance gear.
While you're draining/aspiring the other person does it too, the fact that you tote poison over silence is blows my mind, can you even tie your own shoes?

You don't have enough pride to not turn down a 61 100 byne bill offer to put your money where your mouth is? Make a mule, I"ll show it to you in a trade.


Is the person fighting the RDM standing still? You're an idiot, transfer over here so I can smack you around, this grows tiresome, I doubt anything bigger than the prospects I've just offered you has come your way.

O great PvP RDM master of the ages.

[Zaknafein]

Let me guess .... they tried to melee.

RDM should never melee in PvP, they should be kiting and treating other players as NM's with 1600~2000HP.

"Teamwork" means jack squat because no matter what you do on one side, the other side can do as well. It won't be three vs one RDM, it'll be three vs one RDM + two BLU, or some other combination. What your saying is that multiple people beat a single RDM, but you completely forget that the RDM / BLU / PLD has two other players with them.

The whole point of all this is that FFXI is balanced around PvE, players teaming up vs horribly overpowered monsters. PvP isn't going to work due to how the abilities and specializations were divided up amongst the jobs. Right now PvP seems "fun" because there is no reward. The moment they include someone on the level of a VWNM body's into the event, you'll see a flood of players. Players will quickly figure out that if they play as groups of RDM / BLU / PLD's they will win the most and therefor get the most points for their gear. Players who do not have those jobs leveled / geared will feel bad as their left out / behind and get beaten constantly.

A) They never once engaged. Was completely enfeeble/Dot/nuke a.k.a. your "doomsday scenario" lol. It is a lsmate who has excellent gear, and is a very accomplished player. As I said earlier she got me good a few times, however my rabbit had it's share of kills as well. As did the other participants a Blm, and a Sam.

B) You talk in absolutes about what the "other" team will be comprised of. Is it possible that you don't even know that brenner randomizes the teams?

C) I tried to respond to your posts logically, but I have the feeling that you are a tool like has been mentioned earlier. Bottom line is if you hate PvP so much, and it is so awful why are you even participating in this thread?

[Urteil]

Y You deliberately avoided addressing the real reason you use sleep, the stun effect. If the other player hasn't used a poison pot, that's just a bonus. You kill them with drain / aspir and DoT's over time, typically within 5 min but someone with a ton of items can last 10 min.

The real reason you use sleep, is the STUN effect?

You mean not to immobilize a person to spam dispel, get ahead in the aspir cycle, or buy time to recover?


What is this, I don't even. I keep re-reading this . . . I don't know why.

[Keinn]

I would have liked FFXI to have a PVP server option, but unfortunately, full world PVP would never happen.
SE has based the story of the game all around everyone being the children of Altana, and how they all have to band together to face the evils and such. Having people fighting each other all over the place just doesn't match their theme.

A dedicated Colosseum would be great, though.

[Urteil]

I would have liked FFXI to have a PVP server option, but unfortunately, full world PVP would never happen.
SE has based the story of the game all around everyone being the children of Altana, and how they all have to band together to face the evils and such. Having people fighting each other all over the place just doesn't match their theme.

A dedicated Colosseum would be great, though.

I don't want full world PvP, a /duel when bored outside of towns or even them just increasing the EXP reward from OM's to 20,000 that also gives you some Conquest Points or Cruor would be enough.

The ideal fix would be that every person on the winning team gets 15,000~ CP which could be used to fuel Voidwatch etc.

Or EXP.

Or Cruor, or the ability to pick.

[Xantavia]

I barely pvp and I can tell you Saevel that is an over simplistic view of pvp so much can easily can wrong in your battle plan there, break, sleep, getting your mp aspired away, etc. also why use asuran claws, there are cheaper faster spells to do the same job like delta thrust which comes with a handy plague. BLUs are a powerful job don't get me wrong but any good pvper will know blus weakness is range, its very easy to run out of range of most of our spells or to just aspir our limited mp pool away. Even the one "broken spell" we have in pvp absolute terror is easy to just run from.

Not only that but you neglected water bomb which is a solid silence spell that does a bit of knowledge and decent range. And you didn't mention pinecone bomb which gives you times to set up aa spell or give time to put up occultation or barrier tusk or cocoon.

You forgot to toss out regurgitation to help with the range issue. (unless bind doesn't work in these PvP fights. I've never done them myself)