[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

[Tile]

A trophy system could work like that. Like the one used in Abyssea. Rank 1-5. The highest most difficult NM's giving everyone a 1st tier trophy when defeated. Only difference would be you can only trade trophies down. That would prevent spamming, and trading up to get T1 trophies. I would have no issue with that sort of model.

this sounds pretty good. each item would then cost a different amount of trophies, bodies and weapons would cost the most. while the random rings etc. would only take afew trophies

[Mahoro]

If you had actually read my post instead of hitting reply after the first three sentences you'd know this.

Again, I marvel at the assumptions and condescension rife in your posts. Just because I only quote the first part of your post in an effort to minimize wall o' text for other readers on this forum as a COURTESY, does not mean I did not read your post and merely hit Reply after the first three sentences. For the record, look up. I did it again.

I actually did read your post. However, I did not wish to enter into a debate over the ethical qualities of operant conditioning chambers and video game addiction, thus I did not address the remainder of your post. What I WILL say on that issue is that our society has not yet recognized gaming addiction to be on the same tier as gambling addiction or chemical-induced addiction, which have quantifiable and severe social impacts. Maybe the tides of societal mores will change as we get more and more stories of kids collapsing from exhaustion after 24-hour marathon sessions. Who knows?

On a side note, it's important to recognize that gaming isn't addictive in the technical sense of the term. Some people with addictive personalities are more susceptible to becoming addicted to gaming, gambling, etc. Some people are probably addicted to VW in the hopes of having that Toci's drop "on the next one, I can feel it." Just as some blue-haired grannies in Atlantic City are more susceptible to pulling the lever of that slot machine because they will win "on the next one, I can feel it." Or someone betting the lottery Quickpick because "my lucky number will come, I just know it." I would probably argue that the blue-haired granny is being damaged more from a financial and social standpoint (losing her money, isolated since slots are a solitary activity, probably ordering drinks from the casino waitress, etc.). Yet the casinos or the lottery commission have not really been taken to task for their ethical transgressions because they derive revenue for the state. Ultimately, we as a society seem to be fine with having a certain amount of tempting activities out there, and leave it to the individual/social workers/support groups/clinics to come to grips with their consequences.

In any event, to get back on topic, I note that yet again you are creating a strawman argument by continually referring to Voidwatch drop rates in your responses to me, which I have expressly said REPEATEDLY in this thread that I am not in support of with respect to Legion. As I have said, I would support Abyssea-type drop rates, which you admit is a "non-Skinner system" (which is a bit of a misnomer since it still contains facets of an operant conditioning chamber). Although I'm sure the devs will not use Abyssea drop rates again since they probably think people got their items too fast and abandoned the content, so I guess I would be fine with slightly lower drop rates than those (15-20%?).

[Mirabelle]

Someday I'd like them to code into VW a system whereby the more times you've killed an NM the more likely his rare drops will fall. This would mitigate against the poor sap that is statistics misfortunate one.

Say a random drop is set at 1%. After 25 kills it goes to 5%. After 50 kills it goes to 20 %. After 75 kills it raises to 50%. After 100 kills it becomes a 100% drop. That way in the end you do no worse than 1/100 for something that has a 1% drop rate to start. And the odds are you'll get that item somewhere in the 30-40 kill range if you have even average luck.

[Ravenmore]

Someday I'd like them to code into VW a system whereby the more times you've killed an NM the more likely his rare drops will fall. This would mitigate against the poor sap that is statistics misfortunate one.

Say a random drop is set at 1%. After 25 kills it goes to 5%. After 50 kills it goes to 20 %. After 75 kills it raises to 50%. After 100 kills it becomes a 100% drop. That way in the end you do no worse than 1/100 for something that has a 1% drop rate to start. And the odds are you'll get that item somewhere in the 30-40 kill range if you have even average luck.

While this is a great idea Rune has pointed it out many times they found a event they can milk with little effort on their part. Any adjustments to drops won't come till the event is bearly done. Really look how much and fast voiddust moves on the AH, the devs won't mess with it.

[Camate]

Heya everyone

I got word back from the development team about the point system.

It's as most have been saying, you will receive points for every monster that you defeat. Regardless of how many players are participating, everyone will receive the same amount of points and the amount gained will not change based on difficulty (18 person/ 36 person).

[saevel]

Again, I marvel at the assumptions and condescension rife in your posts. Just because I only quote the first part of your post in an effort to minimize wall o' text for other readers on this forum as a COURTESY, does not mean I did not read your post and merely hit Reply after the first three sentences. For the record, look up. I did it again.

I actually did read your post. However, I did not wish to enter into a debate over the ethical qualities of operant conditioning chambers and video game addiction, thus I did not address the remainder of your post. What I WILL say on that issue is that our society has not yet recognized gaming addiction to be on the same tier as gambling addiction or chemical-induced addiction, which have quantifiable and severe social impacts. Maybe the tides of societal mores will change as we get more and more stories of kids collapsing from exhaustion after 24-hour marathon sessions. Who knows?

On a side note, it's important to recognize that gaming isn't addictive in the technical sense of the term. Some people with addictive personalities are more susceptible to becoming addicted to gaming, gambling, etc. Some people are probably addicted to VW in the hopes of having that Toci's drop "on the next one, I can feel it." Just as some blue-haired grannies in Atlantic City are more susceptible to pulling the lever of that slot machine because they will win "on the next one, I can feel it." Or someone betting the lottery Quickpick because "my lucky number will come, I just know it." I would probably argue that the blue-haired granny is being damaged more from a financial and social standpoint (losing her money, isolated since slots are a solitary activity, probably ordering drinks from the casino waitress, etc.). Yet the casinos or the lottery commission have not really been taken to task for their ethical transgressions because they derive revenue for the state. Ultimately, we as a society seem to be fine with having a certain amount of tempting activities out there, and leave it to the individual/social workers/support groups/clinics to come to grips with their consequences.

In any event, to get back on topic, I note that yet again you are creating a strawman argument by continually referring to Voidwatch drop rates in your responses to me, which I have expressly said REPEATEDLY in this thread that I am not in support of with respect to Legion. As I have said, I would support Abyssea-type drop rates, which you admit is a "non-Skinner system" (which is a bit of a misnomer since it still contains facets of an operant conditioning chamber). Although I'm sure the devs will not use Abyssea drop rates again since they probably think people got their items too fast and abandoned the content, so I guess I would be fine with slightly lower drop rates than those (15-20%?).

I haven't insulted you a single time, only mentioned that if you didn't understand who Dr. Skinner was you should go look up his work. All you did was look up a single wiki article, you didn't actually look up the various reward schedules nor the results of those studies and how their being applied in MMO's. When you call people arrogant you might want to look in a mirror nearby first, and wait an hour or two before pounding keys.

Video Game addiction ~is~ a recognized medical condition now. It doesn't form a chemical addiction but instead forms a behavioral addiction in the same manor gambling does. There are some very bad "F2P" games out there that capitalize on this and have found optimal ways to extract revenue from a human beings irrational desire for a reward. In other words, the game is technically "free" but to get a better chance at a reward you must spend real money, the ratio's are optimized in such a way that players can and will spend upwards of $100 USD a month on these games.

Voidwatch is blatant application of behavioral science to a video game with the intention of optimizing content endurance.

Sound so nicer when you use business terms. It's just using an artificially low drop rate to ensure a lower developer budget for higher profit margins. Especially as there is very little to do in FFXI other then VWNM and Abyssea (for those still working on things).

These methods in and of themselves are not bad, but its the associated reasons behind them that are unethical. Humans are not rats and shouldn't be conditioned in video games. Its identical to the tobacco companies targeting teens for advertisements and altering the content of their product to make them more addictive.

[Kalilla]

What about the quality of items?

Will they be lower quality than what you can receive inside? Will they be entirely different? Will you be able to use the items you buy points with for crafts or synergy?

[Mahoro]

I haven't insulted you a single time, only mentioned that if you didn't understand who Dr. Skinner was you should go look up his work. All you did was look up a single wiki article, you didn't actually look up the various reward schedules nor the results of those studies and how their being applied in MMO's. When you call people arrogant you might want to look in a mirror nearby first, and wait an hour or two before pounding keys.

Never said you insulted me, just made assumptions about my knowledge base (which you are doing again now) and accused me in a condescending tone of not reading stuff but hitting Reply after three sentences, in effect having the attention span of Joe Average Forum Poster. Also never mentioned one word about Wiki, or that I've only read "a single wiki article", so at this point you might be confusing me with someone else (at best) or making more random assumptions (at worst). Notwithstanding all of this, you do make some good points about video game addiction, which at this point we should probably leave to the wayside for fear of derailing this thread further.

[Glamdring]

Heya everyone

I got word back from the development team about the point system.

It's as most have been saying, you will receive points for every monster that you defeat. Regardless of how many players are participating, everyone will receive the same amount of points and the amount gained will not change based on difficulty (18 person/ 36 person).

so it's leech-friendly, good to know, bad to play, got it.

[Alhanelem]

Video Game addiction ~is~ a recognized medical condition now

Behavioral, and Chemical Addiction are recognized medical conditions. Not Video Game, or <insert anything else here>. What you get addicted to doesn't matter much, the core of the treatment process is the same. You can become addicted to anything from video games to tiddly winks given the right conditions. MMOs in general promote certain behavioral patterns, the issue you are questioning is not specific to Voidwatch. It's part of any and every MMO as a whole.

All of this crap is really irrelevant to the topic at hand, though. Whether or not Voidwatch is designed to addict us to the game (as if people who have played the game long enough to be doing voidwatch aren't already addicted anyway) has nothing to do with why we don't like it. We don't like it because the reward level is so low that it actually prevents most of us from getting the proverbial carrot on the end of the stick. The tasty addicting nuggets are dispensed at too low a rate for people to get hooked in. I've only done a few VW fights, and while the fights themselves were kind of interesting, I have no real drive to stick with it because I don't see it as rewarding.

P.S. if you're going to lecture people on medical science, make sure you at least use spell check and then also verify that spellcheck corrected to the right word (manor, as in a house, vs manner, as in a method)