[dev1049] New weapon skills

[saevel]

You must have never used Ruinator 5/5 with a good WS build.

Ruinator has 3.33 times higher WSC, 100% vs 30%. With belt and gorget Ruinator has a higher fTP. Ruinator has an attack bonus. The only thing rampage can do is crit.

Get a WS build with at least 150 str, elemental belt and gorget. Then try it again, or just do the math.

Or you can stop blowing smoke up everyone's arses.

Four hits, 100% STR WSC, fTP transfers across all hits. Absolutely ZERO attack bonus.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ruinator

Assuming off hand weapon you have 4+1 hits. With gorget / belt you get 6.0 of ftp (+0.2 x 5).

Rampage is 5+1 hits 30% STR WSC and can crit. It's first hit is only 0.5 fTP but all other hits are 1.0. With DW you have 6 hits for 5.5 fTP. You'd be using the rancor gorget over anything else, and the Attack +15 / Acc +15 DA +1% on the waist. So 6.0 vs 5.5 fTP for 9% more fTP, up to two DA's can proc to further reduce the fTP difference. Now here's the kicker, Rampage can crit and your going to get 2~3 crits on average. Those crits are what bring Rampage's average damage inline with Ruinators, especially on T+ targets when your not capping ratio and level correction is being tossed in.

Ruinator is just a more consistent Rampage. And when you have limited choices, spending one for a side-grade isn't very wise unless you have no other options.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Forgot alpha, it's 85% STR mod on Ruinator. Pretty sure SE stated Ruinator's attack bonus was being reduced for 'balance'.

Found it:

Hey everyone, we’ve been looking over your feedback and wanted to give more details in the thought process behind our changes and some of the weapon skills themselves.
　　
Axe Weapon Skill “Ruinator”
We will be lowering the attack modifier value and changing it so it’s half of the current value. The amount of damage dealt to high level enemies (those that have high defense) will be reduced, however, being able to deal damage easier than other axe weapon skills will remain unchanged.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Rampage if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. (This is when both of them are executed at 100 TP. There is of course more damage that can be dealt depending on gear and food.)

We are making adjustments so that you can pick Ruinator if you want to deal more consistent damage, or Rampage if you want to try and deal large amounts of damage.

[Theytak]

Or you can stop blowing smoke up everyone's arses.

Four hits, 100% STR WSC, fTP transfers across all hits. Absolutely ZERO attack bonus.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ruinator

Assuming off hand weapon you have 4+1 hits. With gorget / belt you get 6.0 of ftp (+0.2 x 5).

Rampage is 5+1 hits 30% STR WSC and can crit. It's first hit is only 0.5 fTP but all other hits are 1.0. With DW you have 6 hits for 5.5 fTP. You'd be using the rancor gorget over anything else, and the Attack +15 / Acc +15 DA +1% on the waist. So 6.0 vs 5.5 fTP for 9% more fTP, up to two DA's can proc to further reduce the fTP difference. Now here's the kicker, Rampage can crit and your going to get 2~3 crits on average. Those crits are what bring Rampage's average damage inline with Ruinators, especially on T+ targets when your not capping ration and level correction is being tossed in.

Ruinator is just a more consistent Rampage. And when you have limited choices, spending one for a side-grade isn't very wise unless you have no other options.

The math says they're equal, but in practice it's a shitton easier to gear for ruinator to get the same results, so it's not surprising most people that are getting ruinator are seeing it put out numbers that trump rampage on average. If the godmodeukkowars were the ones playing with ruinator vs rampage, their available gear pool would allow them to see much higher rampage damage in general, such that ruinator and rampage would be a wash. Ruinator is basically a slightly weakened, multihit Tachi: Gekko, for axes.

That, and they apparently didn't nerf ruinator nearly as much as we thought they did, because it was a LOT stronger than most initially realized.

[darkhorror]

The math says they're equal, but in practice it's a shitton easier to gear for ruinator to get the same results, so it's not surprising most people that are getting ruinator are seeing it put out numbers that trump rampage on average. If the godmodeukkowars were the ones playing with ruinator vs rampage, their available gear pool would allow them to see much higher rampage damage in general, such that ruinator and rampage would be a wash. Ruinator is basically a slightly weakened, multihit Tachi: Gekko, for axes.

That, and they apparently didn't nerf ruinator nearly as much as we thought they did, because it was a LOT stronger than most initially realized.

I would love to see that math that puts rampage equal to Ruinator and in what situations. The tests and calculations I have done show that ruinator is much better in nearly all situations.

[darkhorror]

Also my tests show that it has at least a 10% attack bonus, my guess closer to 25%. Not sure how much yet. Been testing vs DC wardon beetles. On BST with 129 str, 74 dmg main hand 64 damage off hand, 687 attack and 8% damage boost from killer effect, and no gorget or belt. did about 1300-1600 damage with normal tp return.

Then changed to MNK, 137 str, 127 dex, 80 damage H2H base without fstr, 730 attack. Shijin does about 1100-1500 dmg on normal tp return. Shijin is supposed to have about a 10% attack bonus. Lots of variables, but IF fstr is capped on both axe and H2H they will both have 91 dmg on mainhand, and axe will have 81 on offhand, and axe is most likely still far from cap. When counting attack bonus you will end up with about 800 attack on shijin vs 687 on axe. Shijin also has slight ftp bonus over axe ws.

Yet with all of that which should put shijin way ahead of Ruinator, once you take into account the 8% damage boost on bst they do similar damage with those setups.

Edit: still needs more testing, didn't do all that many WS's but that's what I got there. and once I did put WS gear on BST and used ruinator did 2k-2.5k damage with normal tp return. Where the highest rampage I saw was 1.5k.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Shijin's Attack bonus is 5%.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm pretty sure all of this stuff has been tested and posted somewhere in this forum.

[saevel]

Also my tests show that it has at least a 10% attack bonus, my guess closer to 25%. Not sure how much yet. Been testing vs DC wardon beetles. On BST with 129 str, 74 dmg main hand 64 damage off hand, 687 attack and 8% damage boost from killer effect, and no gorget or belt. did about 1300-1600 damage with normal tp return.

Then changed to MNK, 137 str, 127 dex, 80 damage H2H base without fstr, 730 attack. Shijin does about 1100-1500 dmg on normal tp return. Shijin is supposed to have about a 10% attack bonus. Lots of variables, but IF fstr is capped on both axe and H2H they will both have 91 dmg on mainhand, and axe will have 81 on offhand, and axe is most likely still far from cap. When counting attack bonus you will end up with about 800 attack on shijin vs 687 on axe. Shijin also has slight ftp bonus over axe ws.

Yet with all of that which should put shijin way ahead of Ruinator, once you take into account the 8% damage boost on bst they do similar damage with those setups.

Edit: still needs more testing, didn't do all that many WS's but that's what I got there. and once I did put WS gear on BST and used ruinator did 2k-2.5k damage with normal tp return. Where the highest rampage I saw was 1.5k.

And your still blowing smoke up everyone's arse's.

As much as I loath BG, their very good at testing numbers and figuring potentials out. Ruin's already been looked at and it has NO attack bonus. Your just talking out your fifth point of contact. It's just four hits at 100% STR, that's it. Rampage is 4.5 hits at 30% STR that can crit, those criticals will nearly double the damage on those hits.

Your comparing a high STR Ruinator vs a non-critical Rampage on low defense EM targets and calling it a day.

[saevel]

The math says they're equal, but in practice it's a shitton easier to gear for ruinator to get the same results, so it's not surprising most people that are getting ruinator are seeing it put out numbers that trump rampage on average. If the godmodeukkowars were the ones playing with ruinator vs rampage, their available gear pool would allow them to see much higher rampage damage in general, such that ruinator and rampage would be a wash. Ruinator is basically a slightly weakened, multihit Tachi: Gekko, for axes.

That, and they apparently didn't nerf ruinator nearly as much as we thought they did, because it was a LOT stronger than most initially realized.

Well Gekko has an attack bonus which usually auto-caps ratio and being one hit has 95% acc on that first hit. Ruin has neither the attack bonus nor the super-acc of being a one hit WS. Ruin would only be better if your fighting weak mobs without good gear swaps. Which just described most of the games population.

[Theytak]

I would love to see that math that puts rampage equal to Ruinator and in what situations. The tests and calculations I have done show that ruinator is much better in nearly all situations.

Assuming both being used while dual wielding;
99 war/nin, galka (because that's what I am and have easiest access to stats for); 97 base STR
99 bst/nin, galka; 89 base STR
Assuming main hand is Astolfo (99 STR trial axe), offhand, for the sake of ease of calculation, will be the same (99 str trial astolfo)
so main and offhand are both:
Dmg 74 Str+11 (delay and atk aren't relevant to the numbers because capped pDIF is assumed, fSTR is also assumed to be capped)

For the war,
Rampage set: +75 str, matching belt and gorget, crit damage +18%, ~25% double attack
Ruinator set: +90 str, matching belt and gorget, ~25% double attack
For the bst,
Rampage set: +75 str, matching belt and gorget, ~10% double attack
Ruinator set: +90 str, matching belt and gorget, ~10% double attack

Rampage: 6 hit ws, 30% STR mod, total fTP: 5.694 (gorgets don't add exactly 0.1 fTP, they add 0.097), Critical hit ws
Ruinator: 5 hit ws, 100% STR mod, total fTP: 5.485, acc varies ws

so WD = 75, fSTR = 16 (going to shorthand this and add it now, 91 damage before WSC), fTP = 2.05 (max randomized pDIF for 1h weapons)

War Ruinator:
(91 + floor((97+90)*0.85)) * 6.582 * 2.05 (fTP is not a typo, 25% DA means an extra hit will be common, though I can't remember whether the whole "fTP spreads to all hits also includes double/triple attack procs. For the sake of the argument, I'll assume it does) = Best Case Scenario (outside of abs max str): Ruinator damage = 3359 (one double attack proc)
Bst Ruinator:
(91 + floor((97+90)*0.85)) * 5.485 * 2.05 = Best Case Scenario (outside of abs max str): Ruinator damage = 2799

War Rampage:
(91 + floor(floor((97+75) * 0.3) * 0.85)) * (1*x + 0.694) * (pDIF) (1*x = number of hits, such that I can easily calculate for a given number of non/critical hits)
No crits: 1838 damage (1 double attack proc)
3/7 crits: ~2536 damage (1 double attack proc, damage will dip depending on which three hits crit)
All crits: ~3333 damage (1 double attack proc)
Bst Rampage:
(91 + floor(floor(89+75) * 0.3) * 0.85)) * (1*x + 0.694) * (pDIF)
No crits: 1564 damage
3/6 crits: ~2280 damage (damage will dip depending on which three hits crit)
All crits: ~2403 damage

Basically, the reason bsts are all reporting awesome returns compared to rampage is that they lack the large natural increase in critical hit damage that war has. I'm a war, not a bst, so when I say the math says they're even, I'm thinking about it from a warrior's perspective, that's probably why you didn't see what I saw.

Regardless, this is a damage potential scenario, not damage in practice, because this doesn't account for variability in randomized pDIF values, accuracy levels, etc. As far as damage potential is concerned, they're effectively the same, but it is interesting that SE said they wanted rampage to be the stronger ws in terms of higher numbers, and ruinator be more consistent, when realistically, ruinator is more on par with high end rampages than average rampages. That, and ruinator is still a lot easier to gear for, making it a far more forgiving ws in terms of lower gear quality players using it.

Basically, if you're a warrior, the worse your gear, the stronger ruinator will be compared to rampage; the better your gear, the more even they get. If you're a bst, ruinator pretty much wins regardless.

Well Gekko has an attack bonus which usually auto-caps ratio and being one hit has 95% acc on that first hit. Ruin has neither the attack bonus nor the super-acc of being a one hit WS. Ruin would only be better if your fighting weak mobs without good gear swaps. Which just described most of the games population.

That was my point in using gekko as a reference example.