DRK and MP and Damage Dealing.

[Theytak]

Haha at that joke, unless you were serious then get off the game ^^

Scythes have the highest damage out of all the weapons(if you really didn't realize what he meant). just compare any lvl of Ukon with any similar lvl of Redemption, or a better example, Apocalypse. The scythe will have much higher damage than the GA. Why can't scythe do more damage than any other weapon in the game(outside of Apoc where it's normal TPing swings can crit for 4k+ on high tier NMs) is rediculous~. And the reasoning: SE despises DRK and it's community and favors the simple melee jobs(WAR SAM MNK) that can "face-roll" and do massive damage.

Highest damage rating ≠ strongest weapons. The part I bolded is only slightly accurate. The scythe will have a higher damage on any individual hit, yes, but the great axe will always be faster, and in this game, it's not high damage ratings, but low delays, that determines true weapon strength. Mind you, both are a factor, but delay has a much larger weight.

Compare:

Redemption 95: Dmg: 150 Delay: 502 DPS: 17.93

Ukonvasara 95: Dmg: 144 Delay: 482 DPS: 17.93

Caladbolg 95: Dmg: 132 Delay: 430 DPS: 18.42

Verethragna 95: Dmg: 87 Delay: 331 DPS: 15.77* (using 412 h2h skill from merits, mnk95 for MA7)
*Note that verethragna always attack at least twice per attack round, so the dps will be higher than this realistically

DPS values only show the ratio of Dmg to Delay with delay converted to seconds, and don't account for aftermath,

While Redemption's 150 dmg will allow it to have the highest average damage per hit, it is also the slowest weapon of the bunch.

Before the RNG (Random Number Generator) gets a hold of the actual numbers to cause variation, if you (generously) assume capped fSTR and pDIF, you would see this:

Rounding note: All seconds values are truncated to the thousandths place (rounded down) due to the commonality of the floor function. All DPS values are truncated to the hundredths place.

Redemption: ~382 damage per hit, every 8.366... seconds (before haste), every 5.02 seconds (40% haste, gearcap+haste spell), or every 1.673... seconds (capped 80% haste)
Raw DPS: 45.66 DPS
40% Haste: 73.46 DPS
80% Haste: 228.33 DPS

Ukonvasara: ~369 damage per hit every 8.033... seconds (before haste), every 4.82 seconds (40% haste), or every 1.606... seconds (capped 80% haste)
Raw DPS: 45.93 DPS
40% Haste: 76.55 DPS
80% Haste: 229.76 DPS

Caladbolg: ~338 damage per hit every 7.166... seconds (before haste), every 4.3 seconds (40% haste), or every 1.433... seconds (capped 80% haste)
Raw DPS: 47.16 DPS
40% Haste: 78.60 DPS
80% Haste: 235.86 DPS

Verethragna: ~198 damage per hit, twice, or 396 per round every 5.5166... seconds (before haste), every 3.31 seconds (40% haste), or every 1.77 seconds (capped 80% haste, accounting for Martial Arts) (note that when you account for h2h's natural 2 hits, Verethragna deal more damage per attack round than redemption, at half a second slower than redemption with 40% haste (the delay difference is due to martial arts, if there were no martial arts, h2h would trump scythe as the slowest weapon in the game for all but a select few weapons)
Raw DPS: 35.89 DPS (1 hit), 71.79 DPS (both hits)
40% Haste: 59.81 DPS (1 hit), 119.63 DPS (both hits)
80% Haste: 111.86 DPS (1 hit), 223.72 DPS (both hits)

Due to martial arts counting towards the haste cap, Verethragna has both the highest DPS (no haste~high haste) and the lowest DPS (capped haste) of the group. Once Vere hit the haste cap (they will a good deal earlier than the other weapons), everything else starts to catch up, and then pass, vere, but looking purely at melee damage potential, I won't try to argue that it being significantly easier for a mnk to cap haste than a war gives vere an edge, especially since drk has just as much ease reaching it due to desperate blows.

tl;dr: Scythe is not, and has never been, the strongest weapon.

[Selzak]

Redemption 95: Dmg: 150
Ukonvasara 95: Dmg: 144
Caladbolg 95: Dmg: 132
Verethragna 95: Dmg: 87

Everything else is just you being defensive and missing the point that he was trying to make.

[Saiken253]

Everything else is just you being defensive and missing the point that he was trying to make.

why do people either not read everything, or completely segment each sentence to not be connected in any form in discussions? xD

But yes, he clearly missed my point and to clarify: Scythe Damage ratings > all and why does that =/= greatest WS damage? clear hating on SEs part, or they really don't know how anything works in this game(outside war mnk sam whm blm), or as someone has said on another thread, "I believe they truly do like bad ideas".

[Economizer]

But yes, he clearly missed my point and to clarify:

To clarify, even arguing that Scythe is the lowest damage weapon when compared to other 2handers is wrong too, he was using the Empyrean stats, which are favorable to his argument. Bust out the Relics, which are higher damage, and his argument falls flat on its face.

I'm not even going to argue that you were right (or wrong) here, I don't really care for the sake of this discussion whether Dark Knight is a crappy DD or not, or whether Scythe is a bad weapon choice or not - even if it is the numbers he used were wrong. He might be able to argue whatever else about Scythes and might even be right, but when it comes to down to it, the highest damage rating two handed weapon in the game is a scythe, and the highest flat DPS two handed weapon in the game is a Scythe.

[Theytak]

Everything else is just you being defensive and missing the point that he was trying to make.

Care to elaborate on how my explanation that scythe isn't the strongest weapon misses the point when in reply to some one saying scythe is the strongest weapon?

I'm not saying anything negative about drk, or even that I disagree about scythe needing stronger ws (I agree with that), I'm just explaining how BNS isn't ever correct ever.

[Theytak]

why do people either not read everything, or completely segment each sentence to not be connected in any form in discussions? xD

But yes, he clearly missed my point and to clarify: Scythe Damage ratings > all and why does that =/= greatest WS damage? clear hating on SEs part, or they really don't know how anything works in this game(outside war mnk sam whm blm), or as someone has said on another thread, "I believe they truly do like bad ideas".

I didn't miss the point, I was correct in my assessment. That you mispoke isn't my fault ; ;

To clarify, even arguing that Scythe is the lowest damage weapon when compared to other 2handers is wrong too, he was using the Empyrean stats, which are favorable to his argument. Bust out the Relics, which are higher damage, and his argument falls flat on its face.

I'm not even going to argue that you were right (or wrong) here, I don't really care for the sake of this discussion whether Dark Knight is a crappy DD or not, or whether Scythe is a bad weapon choice or not - even if it is the numbers he used were wrong. He might be able to argue whatever else about Scythes and might even be right, but when it comes to down to it, the highest damage rating two handed weapon in the game is a scythe, and the highest flat DPS two handed weapon in the game is a Scythe.

What is this I don't even

Haha at that joke, unless you were serious then get off the game ^^

Scythes have the highest damage out of all the weapons(if you really didn't realize what he meant). just compare any lvl of Ukon with any similar lvl of Redemption, or a better example, Apocalypse. he scythe will have much higher damage than the GA. Why can't scythe do more damage than any other weapon in the game(outside of Apoc where it's normal TPing swings can crit for 4k+ on high tier NMs) is rediculous~. And the reasoning: SE despises DRK and it's community and favors the simple melee jobs(WAR SAM MNK) that can "face-roll" and do massive damage.

He said to compare the empy weapons, so I compared the empy weapons. I didn't use Relics because I was just doing a quick number crunch.

I'm not trying to insult or berate anyone, I'm not calling anyone stupid, inept, ignorant, or otherwise. I just posted some math that disproves the assertion that "Scythes have the strongest damage out of all weapons" where in damage is read as "damage output" not "damage rating" because no one ever says "damage" and means "damage rating" except when the conversation is about weapon stats. Who pissed in all of your cheerios?

Never is a strong word, 93.3% Haste cap says Hi

Oh and this...


Selective memory~

Touche, sir. I'd totally forgotten about that.



also: I'm a girl, dammit.

[Selzak]

...because no one ever says "damage" and means "damage rating" except when the conversation is about weapon stats.

That's exactly what this conversation was about lol. I don't think anyone is mad (they shouldn't be). You just didn't understand the context of the thread/his post and made a huge, irrelevant post that came across as you defending MNK when the discussion was simply about the fact that big, high-powered weapons should do more WS damage than smaller, less powerful weapons. Strong can be ambiguous I guess. Think of it like a skinny guy hitting someone 100 times and doing more damage versus a professional boxer hitting someone once and doing less damage (overall). Still, we're calling the professional boxer stronger in this context. It's not that hard to understand I don't think...

Either way, this is getting very off-topic and it's really not worth discussing here.

Reduce the recast/casting time by a static amount.

Both are worth considering and honestly I'd be happy either way. The reason I'm more on board with Quick Magic is because it resets recasts completely, and a lot of our spells have not aged well so casting an instant one followed immediately by another one causes them to have a real impact (i.e. with Drain). I don't know if you're thinking more in terms of PvP or something here, in which case a static thing would be a lot better and the above problem doesn't even apply. I'd also argue that the notion of "tactical input" or "skill" in either of these cases is pretty silly. It's not like we have to solve a puzzle to make the spell available or something either way. The only difference is that one is random, which I'd argue requires more skill (adapting) to deal with. This game isn't hard.

Like I said though, I'm on board with either one and I'd assume that a simple alteration of the casting times and recast times is what's actually going to happen.

[Solrath]

I think that DRK's elemental magic (Tier I-III) could be eliminated and replaced with a set of elemental spells similar to some found in other square-enix games, notably the "Dark -ga" spells like Dark Firaga, Dark Blizzaga, etc. In fact, you can look no further than a certain mission boss in FFXI that uses Dark Flare, Dark Freeze, Dark Tornado, etc. These spells are either conal or radial, are cast instantly (however, they are "TP moves," not spells,) and inflict debilitating status effects.

I think DRK should get a set of "Dark -ga" spells that cost a relatively low amount of MP (100-200), have very short casting times (1-2 seconds) and inflict 1-2 status effects related to its element (i.e. Amnesia with Dark Firaga.) It goes without saying that these spells should also be Area of Effect. To boost their damage, these spells could either a.) be affected by Souleater: Take 10% of the user's Max HP and add that total (or double) to the damage of the spell, or b.) do high damage and always require 10% of the user's Max HP as part of the casting cost.

I would only hope that these spells have unique animations.

[Urteil]

Both are worth considering and honestly I'd be happy either way. The reason I'm more on board with Quick Magic is because it resets recasts completely, and a lot of our spells have not aged well so casting an instant one followed immediately by another one causes them to have a real impact (i.e. with Drain)

The real reason why Drain has not aged so well is because Dark Magic after 300 skill no longer adds potency.

If the spell was on a 40 second timer before haste and gained all the potency it was meant to from skill + gear you are looking at 500~ unresisted drain I every 20~ seconds.

Right now with Appetence Crown and Bale Flanchard +2/Nethervoid I can easily do 1100+ unresisted drain II's to targets without severe magical defenses. If the potency was increased to match the sill + all of my +% gear it would be much higher.

So instead of a trait that randomly effects us, a straight reduction in timers in conjunction with the almighty appetetence crown/hirudinea earring/excelsis ring etc. Is more than enough and would in the long term add 100x more calculated survivability rather than missing the true problem (damage scaling) and trying to fix it with an atrocious amount of RNG.

[Rohelius]

Think of it like a skinny guy hitting someone 100 times and doing more damage versus a professional boxer hitting someone once and doing less damage (overall). Still, we're calling the professional boxer stronger in this context. It's not that hard to understand I don't think.

Oh my god man how about we get each of the Devs in a line to take a punch from this guy so they can understand that concept.


And then line them up again after they stop puking to take one from this guy~

I mean, after that they should have a decent grasp of the concept you explained and hopefully knock(pun intended) some sense into them lol