Whats your favorite subjob for RDM? What is your least favorite?

[ManaKing]

You're still weighing out opportunity cost. If you're not going to be melee'ing the whole time, then you lose out on a ton of magic-specific buffs when you're in the backline by being on Ninja sub. Even then, if someone were to only run in and do 3 CDCs in a fight for 2k each, I could easily outdamage them overall by just staying in the backline on RDM/SCH and tossing out nukes while supporting the party.

People like to throw out Rdm's nuking potential pretty quickly, and you're most definitely not hitting that potential on /Nin with swords equipped. Likewise, if you are using swords, ditching your TP even only decently often is a huge hit to your damage. Just ask any Thief that gets conned into swapping in Thief's Knife and they'll tell you the same thing.

I've never advocated against melee on weak targets. In fact, it's significantly more efficient than nuking on weak enemies, and always will be. But if you're in a situation that warrants backing out or switching weapons, you will contribute far more damage by just being on the backlines and fully utilizing your magic.

Inb4: "Saevel>> You don't have any magic. Just Dia 3 and Cures. How pedantic."

As soon as I retreat back to the back line, I switch out my swords. I have 2 Magian MAB swords at +3 and a Dark sword that I'm in the middle of. I know most people that play RDM don't have 6+ Magian Swords at +2 or +3, but I do. I love that damn things and it is what I do when I get bored of group play. I would have liked to be on the daggers, but I guess they really didn't want us using daggers after all unless we acquire really good ones.

When you retreat, you should continue to add direct damage in the form of nukes if you don't have anything better to do with your MP, aka curing. But if you don't have a decent MAB set that you macro, then yeah you are going to look like a bad RDM. A good Nuking set can make your Tier IVs do the equivalent of TP moves. But the thing is, melee is still better DPS than nukes. So if you spend half the fight up front conserving your MP by meleeing, when you step back or start to nuke, you will have more MP to play with.

Also, when you are at the point where TP moves gets worse because mobs generally get better TP moves below 50% or 25%, then you really do need to re-evaluate where you should be in a fight. I nuke every fight. I don't melee every fight. RDM is still a mage, if anyone missed that, then they completely missed the point IMHO. Nukes are great if you have a good MAB set, but until then your are going to feel like they are trash. Melee is good if you have a good Haste/WS set and you get access to decent WSs. Between the two, MAB is generally easier to work on to get to a good place where as melee is unpleasant and most of the best items you can get are difficult to acquire. I don't think you are playing RDM is you aren't using both sides because SCH and BLM are both much stronger for Magical Damage and utility. Until Enfeebling gets put back to where it is supposed to be I don't think a RDM can contribute enough from just nuking to outweigh the benefits of coming as any other mage.

[saevel]

Notice how he hasn't actually listed what he would be casting or doing with all that MP and time. Casting debuffs before they wear has no effect. So really ... it's ... Cure and ... Cure and ... Nuke. Hence the very same people who scream against "lolmeleeRDM" are the ones demanding and threatening to slash their wrists if SE doesn't give them Cure V.

Enfeebles have ALWAYS been a joke. Do not kid yourselves or try to see the past with rose tinted glass's. Since 2003 RDM has been used as a mini healer. SE patched it to add "enfeebles" to the job due to JP player dissatisfaction. I've already listed the "enfeebles" available to the job and all but one are either useless or mediocre. The few ones that are actually useful are defensive enfeebles in a game where offense rules, killing it faster results in less total damage taken then killing it slower. I've shown how Slow suffers from exponentially worse returns, how Blind II won't lower their rate to below the monster acc cap (80%). Para II is actually really good, but only on weak NM's that we would destroy anyway. On anything hard its just resisted or the target has direct potency reduction. Silence / Bind / Gravity / Sleep / Break are all useless now on NMs. Poison II is less damage then a single nuke. Addle is good in theory, but the scaling is so poor that it won't make a difference on NMs. The reason Dia is so good is that 1, the defense down effect is unresistable and always takes effect, 2 defense down effects scale exponentially like haste does, and 3 this game favors offensive buffs / debuffs and effects over defense ones. You only need to reduce damage to the point where your healers can maintain your HP, any further reduction (at the trade off of offensive power) only suffers to extend the fight needlessly. This isn't a good / bad RDM BS argument, SE has never made enfeebling a priority nor a functional area of specialization. To think otherwise is just delusional. Now if SE chooses they can fix this, adding several more debuffs similar to Dia in that that directly reduce a stat, scale well and don't get resisted to uselessness. Anything else faces the problem of being weak to the point of futility (Addle) or having the sh!t nerfed out of it to prevent it from being used where it would really help (Bind/Gravity/Break/Silence/Sleep).

It's also funny how the posters assume that a RDM/NIN with swords is somehow afflicted by the hidden status ailment "WoW", where their unable to change our their gear during a fight. Heck SE even created a sword for us specifically for healing without needing to switch weapons. And I'm deeply laughing at the idea of a RDM being forced to use the magian cure staff ... that the job has 0 skill on ... and only Cure IV. Seriously we all know that you just go as WHM, in all likely hood your RDM hasn't seen the light of day since halfway through abyssea. Seriously ... "ignore 33% of your job because you absolutely positively need this 13% cure potency on Cure IV", pretty much proves that you guys just want RDM = WHM-1.

Anyhow, this is all moot. SE stated long ago they wanted RDM on the front lines, they created a JA and spells specifically for that purpose. They then went so far as to create a high damage sword that was a light staff. Talk about an obvious hint. The job belongs on the front lines, not because players think so but because the developers have made it so. They don't want RDM to be exclusively on the front lines, the job is designed to be in either place depending on the situation and strategy being used.

Ohh and let me correct something right now, out of all the jobs in this game, RDM is the 2nd hardest to kill (first being PLD). Between our native MDB, buffs and gear, we'll survive when most other DD's would of been killed. This is undeniable as so many youtube video's clearly demonstrate. Thus any situation where a RDM would be forced to the sideline due to aoe's, every other melee would also be forced to those same sidelines. The difference is we have the option to switch into mage gear and contribute vs sitting there with out GAXE shoved where the sun don't shine.

Nuking depends on the monster, CDC spam will beat nuking no contest unless the target is physically resistant yet magically weak. Some fights you just don't want to be within melee range due to the nature of the fight, in that case nuking is a great alternative. Currently there is only one area where a RDM would be forced to the sidelines, and that's some of the high tier VWNMs. Then your really just helping the BLM's hit as many magic procs as possible and possibly running in to melee during the blitz for bonus light values. I melee on the eyeball, I go full support on the grasshopper. I melee full tilt during burns (that picture I posted earlier), I stand back and try to proc lights and move in to melee during the blitz when we're actually farming something for drops. This is what I mean by a RDM doing all three functions of their job (WHM/BLM/WAR). You must pick and chose which ones to use where and when. There is no concrete rule, no easy one sentence quip. No amount of guides can replace the sheer amount of experienced required to play the job well, spamming Cure IV and haste does not make a good RDM. Knowing when to employ which skills and being able to anticipate the AI and monsters weakness's / strengths and how to exploit and counter those, that is what makes a good RDM. A bad RDM will sit back and play only one facet of their job (WHM or BLM or WAR), a good RDM will be able to shift between all three as their judgement dictates.

But please, continue the hating, generalizing, straw man and false dichotomy arguments.

[Greatguardian]

Is there something wrong with curing?

Between Hastes, Cures, Refreshes, Dia 3, Addle/Para2/Slow2 where applicable, Nukes, Phalanx 2 (if applicable), Accession buffs, and proc'ing, there's plenty to do.

You're right, though. My Red Mage hasn't seen the light of day since Scars of Abyssea, and I'm not ecstatic about it. But you know what would change about that if they upgraded Red Mage's melee prowess? Absolutely nothing. Not because I refuse to melee, or am somehow incapable of melee'ing on Red Mage. I have access to better gear than the vast majority of posters here, but that doesn't make the job remotely desirable.

Hell, if it came down to it, it's not like I'm not allowed to bring it either. I lead my linkshell. I can bring whatever the hell I want. However, I'd be setting a gross example for my members if I wasted a party slot on a job with absolutely minimal functional value just because I felt like it while asking them to come on useful jobs. My members all know that I'd never ask them to do something that I wouldn't do myself, and I'm always the first one to change jobs if I'd suit the group better on something else.

[ManaKing]

See funny thing is I can agree with both of you. If you are going to something high tier like the harder VWs, then you probably shouldn't bring a RDM unless you have a very specific role you want for them to play that wouldn't be eclipsed by WHM or BLM/WHM.

On the other hand Savael and I have the same mentality on how to play RDM, though we partially disagree on enfeebles. His synopsis on the overall effectiveness of Enfeebles is pretty close to spot on. I have been debuffed mobs since I started on PC release and it has always made some difference, but that doesn't mean that it makes enough of a difference 10 years later. I do want them to think very carefully on what they can do to make that portion of RDM acceptable again, but if that is all they change then we will still be 2nd class.

RDM is the 2nd toughest job in the game when you actually take hits. Evasion is not our strong point. It never will be, but if you are engaging enemies where you will be hit regardless of evasion, the only job I would rather be on is PLD. And as far as taking magic damage, RDM is probably the strongest, if not one of the strongest. I usually run around in 50% PDT. You can do more damage with other setups, but that isn't always the point and I like being alive.

[ManaKing]

As far as a specialized roll that RDM can bring to a party, RDM/DRK.

Everyone will doubt the credibility of what I say next, but I honestly don't care. I know it works, I don't care if you believe me. When you combine Addle with Stun and Absorb TP, you can make a significant difference in the amount of damage your front line takes. Absorb-TP lands on almost anything that you have the Dark Magic Skill and M.Acc to hit. Disclaimer: you have to have good gear for this to work. Addle makes it so you don't have to be watching the mob like a hawk to make sure you can stun GAs and other high tier magics. By the end of most fights that I won't engage in melee on, I have generated well over 300% TP and stopped most of their unpleasant magic. Even if the NM can TP without TP, they still won't be hitting for as hard with less TP.

You can throw the other absorb spells if you want to drop the NMs stats by 20 per spell. Outside of aby, it is a good way to boost potency on Enfeebles. Absorb Spells increase the difference between your stats and the mobs by 40, +20 for you and -20 for them. You can buff your nuking by taking their INT and CHR. It's also a decent way for you to make up some of the WS damage you lose by giving up dual wield. In the case of Elemental WSs, like Sanguine Blade, you actually do more WS damage by /DRK than by any other sub job combination outside of aby.

Do I think that other people will play the way I do? NO. I honestly don't. But /DRK is my favorite sub for RDM because it follows RDMs ability to make themselves stronger while making mobs weaker. RDMs capped recast benefits Dark Magic's lengthy recast times. You get actual spells, job traits, and job abilities that you can use. Last Resort, Attack Bonus, EX Weapon Skills, Stun, Absorbs, Occult Acumen (10% TP for casting Thunder IV with an Oneiros Belt and some Store TP) and Souleater to a lesser extent. It's a subjob that actually benefits you and brings something to RDM that it usually doesn't offer.

Does RDM/DRK out-damage RDM/NIN? Nope. Does it offer utility while still being playable? Yup.

[cidbahamut]

There is so much wrong on this page, I don't even know where to start.

[Ketaru]

I'm just going to ignore the rest of what you guys are talking about and just mention that /SCH is my favorite subjob. If only the people developing this game weren't all lazy about adjusting spells that SCH main can't use (the only buffs that can be Accession'd are ones that /SCH can sub...hmmm) like Temper and Gains.

And yes, I seriously suspect laziness is behind it. Maybe they need to adjust something about the coding of these spells, I don't know. But it's laziness.

[ManaKing]

There is so much wrong on this page, I don't even know where to start.

Oh Cid, it's like I already disclaimed that people wouldn't try /DRK and you still think that I'm worried that you think it's wrong. If you don't want to try it, don't. It's not technically better than /NIN anyways, just different. And just like every other RDM combination, it still isn't the equivalent in strength to any other job in the game.

[saevel]

Manaking,

I actually agree that RDM/DRK is awesome. Most people probably won't remember but I once had a whole spiel on it. We make the best stunners due to the sheer amount of FC and haste we can get. Abs-TP allows you to build TP while your on the sidelines focusing on stunning, and when the times right you can LR SE CDC (or Vorpal) to your hearts content. For a very long time it was my staple sub, until the recent round of VWNMs. SE has caught onto our game of stun cycling the most annoying / cheap TP moves and they've since adjusted. Eyeball tends to put magic shield up before it starts breakga / death spam. Kaggan has a VERY annoying aspect where if his hands are up, your gonna get resisted. Unfortunately the lag between the client and server makes it so even if his hands are down on your computer, on the server he may still have his uber resist up. But on the older city Tier III/IV's /DRK was my staple sub. This goes back to what I was saying, a good RDM knows when to bring which tools and abilities for each fight. You have to analyze the fight the first time through to figure out which moves you can stun, which ones need stunned, which enfeebles land or it's immune / resistant too, and whether you'll be able to melee or not.

I never said enfeebles were completely useless or ineffective, only that they were never very strong to begin with. Long time a certain taru RDM went around making youtube video's showing him exploiting SE's original oversight to kill a NM by himself. Then others started in, then SE said "ohh hells no!" and thus NM's built resist to gravity really fast. Then we learned how to adjust and SE just said "screw it" and all NM's made afterward are immune to grav/bind/break/ect.

If you are going to something high tier like the harder VWs, then you probably shouldn't bring a RDM unless you have a very specific role you want for them to play that wouldn't be eclipsed by WHM or BLM/WHM.

This is what I deeply disagree with. This line of reasoning ultimately leads to "RDM = WHM-1, so bring a WHM instead". Because how you can define "harder"? If someone wanted to, they could use that to define away RDM's melee side. "RDM melee is for solo, anything else is too dangerous" was the old excuse. On VWNM's we're actually quite useful, yes I can hear all the naysayers screaming with blood in their eyes. Procing + damage + buff / debuff + cure support all rolled up into a single package. Granted the RDM has to be good, otherwise they'll just end up focusing too much on one aspect or the other and not multitasking. If the fights not one of the super cheap NM's then you'll contribute more total damage then anyone, especially if there's BLU's in the alliance. If it's a super cheap NM, then chances are everyone who's not a tank is on the sidelines waiting to be called for procs during most of the fight. At the end everyone will just pop temps and fanatics / fools and try to kill it while procing easy HV's, in which case there is zero reason for you not to join in. I've already shown that a RDM can contribute damn good damage, to anger of the detractors. We've already proven that a RDM can survive better then anything short of a PLD (anything dangerous will have a 140% hit rate that's capped at 80, not even THF's can evade them). So taken on its own, the WAR side of RDM is a durable fighter that can contribute moderate to semi-high amounts of damage.

[Ketaru]

I'm rereading the earlier parts of this thread and I think you two just like starting fights about RDM melee. Until...

You demons with you staves. Can't a guy enjoy his swords in peace? JK play however makes you feel happy. RDM isnt being taken seriously yet anyways.

...there wasn't a single mention about melee on RDM. Just talk about what does and doesn't count as an advantage of a subjob. For example:

Ninja
Stealth, Dual Wield III, Subtle Blow III. Tonko, Monomi, Dokumori: Ichi, Jubaku: Ichi, Kurayami: Ni, Hojo: Ichi (and soon Hojo: Ni), Ninja Wheel, Utsusemi.

Stealth doesn't count and everybody knows it.