Whats your favorite subjob for RDM? What is your least favorite?

[ManaKing]

I asked what people sub on RDM because I've come to the conclusion that a RDMs sub is generally more useful than the main job of RDM itself. A RDMs sub can change how effective a RDM is in specific fight from being legitimately useful to not really good for anything besides Cure IV and maybe Tier IV nukes if you can spare the MP.

The reason why this is the case is because our main job is broken. We can't be counted on to enfeeble properly or significantly. We aren't in a position to do our main job first and then work on our secondary roles in the group like we should be able to. All we have is hodgepodge of secondary roles with no job specialization to do them well or even competently. That is part of the reason we are getting all pissy about my staff is better than your sword and vice versa, because at the end of the day, both your staves and swords both suck compared having a main job. What you should be able to do is enfeeble properly, effectively, and with the highest proficiency in the game. You are given your other strengths so that you have secondary roles that fit the situations that you are in. Not to make them the main focus of your job.

If you fix enfeebles to do what they were intended to do, then we can go back to fighting with each other over why their main hand is stupid, but we will be able to do it while actually doing something for the rest of the party. SE has expressed the interest in Enfeebling being the focus of RDM, and I am happy about it. But when and how is still the issue for me.

If they don't make Enfeebling worthwhile again, then they need to push our nuking, healing, and melee up to compensate for getting a lemon of a main job. We would need a lot of work making RDM into an effective hybrid if their intention is to leave Enfeebling in the state that it is in. We can't be bad at a lot of different things and expect to be wanted by the general populous, it's just not realistic. We have to be decent at everything and have JT and JA abilities that reinforce the hybrid nature of our job. JAs like Sacrosanctity and Immanence and Job traits like Fencer and Occult Acumen need to be coming our way. If that is taking away from the identity of other jobs, THEN FIX OUR MAIN JOB SO WE HAVE SOME JOB IDENTITY.

[ManaKing]

This is essentially what it comes down to.

This whole "Pink mages only cast Haste and then afk" strawman is getting old. Good Red Mages were always riding their Convert timers and MP bars to the limit with their spells. I'm sorry that most Red Mages were, well, bad, but that's the case with most jobs really. Giving bad Red Mages swords isn't going to fix that fact, either.

Red Mage, even as a pure mage, plays significantly differently than White Mage. Conflating the two is insulting, but that's par for the course with Saevel so whatever.

No that is the point, RDM and WHM aren't supposed to be the same. WHM has a full job kit and RDM has a half baked kit that is outdated and under powered. In my opinion WHM and RDM should be able to be in the same party because they don't have the same role. WHM is the healer and defensive buffer. RDM is the offensive debuffer and is an off-healer if needed. WHM keeps them up and protected, RDM undermines the offensive power of the mob and helps keep the party in control of the situation by filling roles that need to be reinforced.

If you WHM has healing on lock down, you should find something that you can do to lessen the threat of the mob. That can be by contributing direct damage to shorten the length of the engagement with the enemy. It can also be to further undermine the threat the mob presents by stunning for you group so that you can nullify spells and TP moves.

You should always have a WHM as a healer for anything significant, it has the tools to do its job. RDM does not have the tools to be a main healer. There is no reason for RDM to be stepping on WHMs toes, but there is no reason that a RDM has to be severely limited by what other jobs can do to determine what it can't.

[saevel]

No that is the point, RDM and WHM aren't supposed to be the same. WHM has a full job kit and RDM has a half baked kit that is outdated and under powered. In my opinion WHM and RDM should be able to be in the same party because they don't have the same role. WHM is the healer and defensive buffer. RDM is the offensive debuffer and is an off-healer if needed. WHM keeps them up and protected, RDM undermines the offensive power of the mob and helps keep the party in control of the situation by filling roles that need to be reinforced.

If you WHM has healing on lock down, you should find something that you can do to lessen the threat of the mob. That can be by contributing direct damage to shorten the length of the engagement with the enemy. It can also be to further undermine the threat the mob presents by stunning for you group so that you can nullify spells and TP moves.

You should always have a WHM as a healer for anything significant, it has the tools to do its job. RDM does not have the tools to be a main healer. There is no reason for RDM to be stepping on WHMs toes, but there is no reason that a RDM has to be severely limited by what other jobs can do to determine what it can't.

Notice how he falls back to the old "I disagree with you so therefor you must suck" argument. Talks about riding convert timer ..... upon which I reply .. doing what exactly? Invariably the answer is "supporting the party", upon which I ask again, doing what exactly. And it goes round and round until it comes out, "supporting the party" is just casting Cure IV over and over again, coupled with the occasional erase / paralyna / silena. With the new duration bonus haste / refresh cycles aren't even an issue anymore. Enfeebled are cheap for their duration and quantity. This leaves two things that can possibly drain MP, Cure IV and nukes.

So once fully dissected he's argument (and pretty much every anti-melee player) is that he's doing damage via nukes vs my doing damage via sword. We both cure the same, hence my reference to the ubiquitous <stal> macro, swinging swords does not prevent me from casting cures when need be. Cure IV is no substitute for Cure V, I won't be main healing, but I will be support curing the best I can. And I can guarantee me sword will deal more damage this his nukes over the course of a fight. There is a reason XP burns forced BLMs to go solo their XP.

Ultimately the argument boils down to them wanting to make RDM into WHM. If your going to be leveraging you role on spamming cures, then you should be on WHM. If you want to throw nuking into the mix then come on SCH, they have VASTLY superior capabilities in that regard. If you only want to melee with swords then come on WAR / SAM / DRG / ect.., their VASTLY superior at it then a RDM will be. If you want to heal, nuke AND swing swords, then com RDM it's what the job was designed for. Enfeebles were tacked on after the job was made, they were never particularly powerful and SE has since nerfed them into oblivion.

My argument still stands, RDM isn't a single category or function and to attempt to define it as such will always lead to failure. It does lots of things, and while none are the best they are more then functional. Due to this multi-role discipline it takes a lot of concentration and effort to play, sticking to one small set of abilities over and over again is doing the job a disservice. A good RDM can slip into and out of the front lines easily, they know when to hit the NM and when to disengage, when to nuke, when to cure and which spells are the most effective on which NMs. We have a plethora of tricks we can deploy depending on the kind of fight it is and our sub choice.

[cidbahamut]

So once fully dissected he's argument (and pretty much every anti-melee player) is that he's doing damage via nukes vs my doing damage via sword. We both cure the same, hence my reference to the ubiquitous <stal> macro, swinging swords does not prevent me from casting cures when need be. Cure IV is no substitute for Cure V, I won't be main healing, but I will be support curing the best I can.

Missing 23% Cure Potency is not 'curing the same'. Bullshit less please.

[ManaKing]

Missing 23% Cure Potency is not 'curing the same'. Bullshit less please.

Only if you are actually missing it. You can get 25% with Galenus and Tefnut Wand. You also get 25 MP, 10 MND, and 5 Healing Magic skill. Your staff only give Cure Potency, and less than the combination of the 2. I mean if we are getting technical, your staff is outdated and inferior. I don't care if you want to use it, that is your choice. But you really shouldn't be trying to tell someone that a staff is the superior curing tool, when it isn't.

@ Savael

Enfeebling was great when this game came out. You could significantly lower the damage a mob could do to you. There was nothing tacked on about it. If you chose not to use it, you were shooting yourself in the foot.

[Greatguardian]

Only if you are actually missing it. You can get 25% with Galenus and Tefnut Wand. You also get 25 MP, 10 MND, and 5 Healing Magic skill. Your staff only give Cure Potency, and less than the combination of the 2. I mean if we are getting technical, your staff is outdated and inferior. I don't care if you want to use it, that is your choice. But you really shouldn't be trying to tell someone that a staff is the superior curing tool, when it isn't.

You're melee'ing with a Galenus and a Tefnut wand, then? I think that's the primary concern. It's not staff v clubs, it's Melee (and thus locked main/sub) versus Casting (gaining access to the Main/Sub slots)

[cidbahamut]

Only if you are actually missing it. You can get 25% with Galenus and Tefnut Wand. You also get 25 MP, 10 MND, and 5 Healing Magic skill. Your staff only give Cure Potency, and less than the combination of the 2. I mean if we are getting technical, your staff is outdated and inferior. I don't care if you want to use it, that is your choice. But you really shouldn't be trying to tell someone that a staff is the superior curing tool, when it isn't.

That would require weapon slots to not be locked, which saevel is most likely doing so he can get all those awesome screenshots of him doing CDC. Can't reach 100 TP if you're switching in a cure potency wand every time you throw a cure.

[ManaKing]

You're melee'ing with a Galenus and a Tefnut wand, then? I think that's the primary concern. It's not staff v clubs, it's Melee (and thus locked main/sub) versus Casting (gaining access to the Main/Sub slots)

If you wanted to you could, which is more than you can say for a staff. Put staff skill on RDM and I would instantly pick one up. Without it, no dice.

If you are RDM/NIN you have the option to melee with your chosen main hand/offhand and switch if needed to a Cure Potency Main/Sub if you think the situation merits it. With Staves and /Mage you don't have that option. If it is an option you don't want then you won't miss it. But in the case of people that enjoy melee-ing with a RDM, they have the same resources or slightly better for curing. Show me a cure potency grip and then you can say Staffs heal better.

That would require weapon slots to not be locked, which saevel is most likely doing so he can get all those awesome screenshots of him doing CDC. Can't reach 100 TP if you're switching in a cure potency wand every time you throw a cure.

Savael or anyone for that matter can make decisions on the fly about where his best interests are. If the first 75% of an NM is a cake walk and the last 25% is serious BSN, then what is the point of NOT meleeing for the first 70~% and then walking back when you know the shit is going to hit the fan and switch weapons for cure potency?

Everyone needs to know when to walk away from a dangerous situation, being a RDM doesn't make it any different. If Savael is sticking it to NMs that can AOE 1 or 2 Shot him, then he is doing it wrong. But if he can contribute DPS and end a fight sooner while not adding extra burden to the healer, then there is no reason that he can't be there.

There are plenty of bad players in every job. Just because most RDMs that try to melee do it horribly wrong, doesn't mean that everyone will do it horribly wrong. If RDM is going to get gimped based of the absolute max of what the job can cheap out of itself, then you shouldn't be limiting people who are trying their best to get the absolute max out of their job.

[Mirage]

I wonder how strong hexa strikes I could pull off on things like Ildebrann.

[Greatguardian]

You're still weighing out opportunity cost. If you're not going to be melee'ing the whole time, then you lose out on a ton of magic-specific buffs when you're in the backline by being on Ninja sub. Even then, if someone were to only run in and do 3 CDCs in a fight for 2k each, I could easily outdamage them overall by just staying in the backline on RDM/SCH and tossing out nukes while supporting the party.

People like to throw out Rdm's nuking potential pretty quickly, and you're most definitely not hitting that potential on /Nin with swords equipped. Likewise, if you are using swords, ditching your TP even only decently often is a huge hit to your damage. Just ask any Thief that gets conned into swapping in Thief's Knife and they'll tell you the same thing.

I've never advocated against melee on weak targets. In fact, it's significantly more efficient than nuking on weak enemies, and always will be. But if you're in a situation that warrants backing out or switching weapons, you will contribute far more damage by just being on the backlines and fully utilizing your magic.

Inb4: "Saevel>> You don't have any magic. Just Dia 3 and Cures. How pedantic."