Seriously devs - the balance

[Crysten]

Some people would be against it, because earning gear through anything other than completely random and low low low drop rates is somehow akin to having relics/mythics mailed to your Mog House when you first start the game. To them, earning gear over time through a points system isn't earning it at all. It makes gear too accessible to the commoners, of which such gear should be out of reach. It would somehow mean everyone would be done with everything in a week, even if the points system made that impossible, and everyone would quit.

They're wrong, of course... and idiots... but that's pretty much why.

That's pretty much what's left of the HNM stigma, yeah.

What is so wrong with having the prospect of progression in a game like this? To use your analogy, low, low drop rates are akin to winning a Mog Bonanza every time you log into the game.

Voidwatch drops, and to an extent Walk of Echoes, are a game of chance, nothing more. I could do Voidwrought 200 times and be in the exact same position as when I started - no closer to any of my goals and practically tearing my hair out. I've been through this enough in old FFXI and I got a harsh taste of reality when I went to do my Black Belt post HNM revamp. I'll tell you now, after over 3000 Kindred Seals, 8 Wyrms, 8 Fafnirs, 21 Chlevniks, 21 Behemoths, 1 King Behemoth, 4 Adamantoises and 1 Aspid, my reaction to finally finishing was not one of joy, but one of "THANK GOD THAT'S OVER." Each time I killed one of the NMs, my heart sank just that little bit more and I very nearly quit the game by the end of it all. I look back at my Black Belt not with fond memories, but as one hell of a lot of wasted time.

In comparison, my Empyreans and my Relic were much less painful as I was making progress little by little, day by day. I could see how far I was getting and this gave the motivation I needed to keep going, despite the events being boring as hell. I will tell you now that if I had to kill Voidwrought, Qilin or whatever other VWNM 200 times to guarantee me the drop I wanted, you could sign me up rght now. Einherjar's Ichor system and to a lesser extent, Assault Points, were some of the best ideas SE had to make gear more accessible and it's sad they didn't take advantage of it more.

While people say people would quit if they got things too fast, the opposite holds true just as much - you cockblock people enough and there's a point they say "No more" and simply walk away out of frustration. Voidwatch is a perfect example of this, especially with the element of cocktease you get when that fulltime WHM that doesn't have a DD job gets that rare body piece!

I think people overreact when they say "stop asking for easy mode, you noobs!" We're not asking for a silver platter - we're asking for a realistic reward in regards to time invested. That would give me no end of reason to keep playing the game now and into the future. You keep cockblocking people with artificial and unfair roadblocks, and they're gone.

EDIT:: I completely misread the post - I'm actually totally agreeing with you. Herpderp. xD

[Camiie]

That's pretty much what's left of the HNM stigma, yeah.

What is so wrong with having the prospect of progression in a game like this? To use your analogy, low, low drop rates are akin to winning a Mog Bonanza every time you log into the game.

That's exactly right. It doesn't prove anything except that the person getting the drop was lucky. The saying, "I'd rather be lucky than good" should honestly be the FFXI motto. It's not a game of skill. It's not a game of dedication. It's a game of pure, dumb luck.

Voidwatch drops, and to an extent Walk of Echoes, are a game of chance, nothing more. I could do Voidwrought 200 times and be in the exact same position as when I started - no closer to any of my goals and practically tearing my hair out. I've been through this enough in old FFXI and I got a harsh taste of reality when I went to do my Black Belt post HNM revamp. I'll tell you now, after over 3000 Kindred Seals, 8 Wyrms, 8 Fafnirs, 21 Chlevniks, 21 Behemoths, 1 King Behemoth, 4 Adamantoises and 1 Aspid, my reaction to finally finishing was not one of joy, but one of "THANK GOD THAT'S OVER." Each time I killed one of the NMs, my heart sank just that little bit more and I very nearly quit the game by the end of it all. I look back at my Black Belt not with fond memories, but as one hell of a lot of wasted time.

I think many people can't tell the difference between a sense of accomplishment and a sense of relief. It's not so much that they're happy they won, it's that they're "happy" they finally stopped losing. And yes, when we go out and do an event with a desired result in mind and that result isn't reached, we lost. And FFXI has a habit of making us lose a lot before arbitrarily allowing us to win.

In comparison, my Empyreans and my Relic were much less painful as I was making progress little by little, day by day. I could see how far I was getting and this gave the motivation I needed to keep going, despite the events being boring as hell. I will tell you now that if I had to kill Voidwrought, Qilin or whatever other VWNM 200 times to guarantee me the drop I wanted, you could sign me up rght now. Einherjar's Ichor system and to a lesser extent, Assault Points, were some of the best ideas SE had to make gear more accessible and it's sad they didn't take advantage of it more.

Yes! I'd be glad to do VW or whatever new events come along if I knew for sure that it'd be worth my time and not be such a gamble. Not all of us like to gamble. There's nothing wrong with having random drops AND a points system within the same event. It works! There's proof of it working out very well! They can easily appease both the gamblers and non-gamblers, but for some reason they choose not to even try to do so with the latter anymore. They won't even throw us a bone at all.

I just don't get why. Too lazy? Not enough manpower? Sorry, but I expect a bit more from a company with a history of greatness like SE. Goes against their current philosophy? To paraphrase a line from an anime I liked, "Screw your philosophy! SCREW IT!"

While people say people would quit if they got things too fast, the opposite holds true just as much - you cockblock people enough and there's a point they say "No more" and simply walk away out of frustration. Voidwatch is a perfect example of this, especially with the element of cocktease you get when that fulltime WHM that doesn't have a DD job gets that rare body piece!

People who enjoy how FFXI endgame content works as it is and see no need for any improvements should try explaining it to people who don't play MMOs or have played newer MMOs. Those crazy looks and incredulous responses they give aren't for nothing.

I think people overreact when they say "stop asking for easy mode, you noobs!" We're not asking for a silver platter - we're asking for a realistic reward in regards to time invested. That would give me no end of reason to keep playing the game now and into the future. You keep cockblocking people with artificial and unfair roadblocks, and they're gone.

EDIT:: I completely misread the post - I'm actually totally agreeing with you. Herpderp. xD

There is room for all sorts of content in FFXI. Easy, normal, and hard. There is room for different means of progress within the same event. Random drops and points. The problem is, SE doesn't seem to be working very hard to cater to everyone. They can give all the reasons and excuses they want, but why doesn't matter. They have to provide content that people will enjoy and find rewarding or they will lose subs. No offense, but hardcores and "gamblers" alone will not keep this game in business.

[Greatguardian]

That's exactly right. It doesn't prove anything except that the person getting the drop was lucky. The saying, "I'd rather be lucky than good" should honestly be the FFXI motto. It's not a game of skill. It's not a game of dedication. It's a game of pure, dumb luck.

You keep running around slandering a group of people without actually reading what they type in response to you. Read what myself and Uptempo are actually saying and you'll realize you're just yelling at air. Actual, living, existing HNM-class players are not running around making the stupid back-asswards claims that you're saying they are. If some real, living person is, point us in their direction so we can call them retarded too. Otherwise, you're just propagating a conflict that does not exist.

This is what I can't stand about posts like yours and Hayward's (See? I'm using specific examples instead of just saying "CASUALSSSSS RRRGH"). You talk so much about some elite community that has its head so far up its own ass that they can lick their own eyeballs, but who do you see actually instigating those beliefs? What "Elites" do you actually deal with? Who are the individual people making these retarded, back-asswards assertions about the game and trying to hold it back as much as possible?

It's impossible to deal with people when all they do is throw around broad generalizations rather than treating people like people. I'm a human being, and I will not be told what my beliefs are simply because I play at a higher level than others.

As for the part I've actually quoted, it really always is better to be lucky than skilled. Just ask Kai Allard-Liao and Victor Hanse Steiner-Davion.

[Camiie]

You keep running around slandering a group of people without actually reading what they type in response to you. Read what myself and Uptempo are actually saying and you'll realize you're just yelling at air. Actual, living, existing HNM-class players are not running around making the stupid back-asswards claims that you're saying they are. If some real, living person is, point us in their direction so we can call them retarded too. Otherwise, you're just propagating a conflict that does not exist.

Why so defensive? I never called you out. I don't actually like calling people out by name. I have seen the things said that I was talking about. I've seen them stated outright and implied. Do they reflect your views? That's great that they don't. I never said that they did.

This is what I can't stand about posts like yours and Hayward's (See? I'm using specific examples instead of just saying "CASUALSSSSS RRRGH"). You talk so much about some elite community that has its head so far up its own ass that they can lick their own eyeballs, but who do you see actually instigating those beliefs? What "Elites" do you actually deal with? Who are the individual people making these retarded, back-asswards assertions about the game and trying to hold it back as much as possible?

I really don't have a list of names. I don't keep a score sheet of who says what, but I assure you I have seen these ideas in game and in forums. I can't prove it, so I know you won't believe it until you see it. Next time I see something I'll be sure to PM you or something.

It's impossible to deal with people when all they do is throw around broad generalizations rather than treating people like people. I'm a human being, and I will not be told what my beliefs are simply because I play at a higher level than others.

As for the part I've actually quoted, it really always is better to be lucky than skilled. Just ask Kai Allard-Liao and Victor Hanse Steiner-Davion.

So you've never seen generalizations about "n00bs' and "casuals" and people who want "easymode" and "everything handed to them?" You've never seen anyone state that points systems are bad and only random is good? You've never seen people upset that things are too easy or too plentiful or what have you?

Now I don't really pay much attention to who says these things, and I don't do any background checks on them. They may or may not actually be elite players, but they tend to put forth the idea that they are. I really don't know whether you are or not, nor does it really matter to me. I will tell you I am not one, and you can certainly check up on my lack of eliteness if you want.

I'll do my best in the future to not be so general and document things better.

[Greatguardian]

Why so defensive? I never called you out. I don't actually like calling people out by name. I have seen the things said that I was talking about. I've seen them stated outright and implied. Do they reflect your views? That's great that they don't. I never said that they did.

If you call out elite players, then you call me out. You can Karbuncle out. You call Byrthnoth out. This is the quintessential problem with sweeping generalizations. Honestly, I've been on both sides of this fence, and all I can say is it needs to stop.

I really don't have a list of names. I don't keep a score sheet of who says what, but I assure you I have seen these ideas in game and in forums. I can't prove it, so I know you won't believe it until you see it. Next time I see something I'll be sure to PM you or something.

This is important. It doesn't matter whether or not someone is elite or casual or Wopadobop. Individuals hold individual views. If someone is being a flaming retard, then it is that person alone who is a flaming retard. It does everyone else around them a disservice to credit their flaming retardedness to their peers.

So you've never seen generalizations about "n00bs' and "casuals" and people who want "easymode" and "everything handed to them?" You've never seen anyone state that points systems are bad and only random is good? You've never seen people upset that things are too easy or too plentiful or what have you?

Now I don't really pay much attention to who says these things, and I don't do any background checks on them. They may or may not actually be elite players, but they tend to put forth the idea that they are. I really don't know whether you are or not, nor does it really matter to me. I will tell you I am not one, and you can certainly check up on my lack of eliteness if you want.

I've seen them. Most of the time, they come from people that I (and most of BG) would consider noobs/gimps/retards. The FFXI middle class is their own worst enemy. Those who have actually held power and prestige for a long period of time have grown accustomed to it. We don't particularly mind if other people share the limelight, since we already have plenty of claim to fame ourselves.

Personally, I was one of the originators of the now-famous Cataclysm cleave on BG (which got compiled and reposted by various others on nearly every website around). I lead and organized one of the server-first sub-12 man Odins many years ago, and I have an extremely solid reputation on my server. What do I care if other people get better at the game? Good for them, I say.

On the other hand, you have a lot of casual players who were suddenly thrust into the limelight with Abyssea. Suddenly, they were able to be "Elite" (think nouveau riche), and tried to lord it over others as much as possible like a kid with a new holographic Charizard. You have people who were solidly left out of serious Endgame content prior to Abyssea, suddenly wanting things to go back to being hard after they've come out on top so that they have a chance to flaunt their epeens the way that other people did to them in the past. While they may have everything they want now, they have it because it's not exclusive any more, and they desperately want to have their cake and eat it too.

These retards are not elite. They just wish they were, and are able to convince a decent amount of people who don't know better that they are. Please don't attribute their hubris to the rest of us. They're a disgrace to the term "Elitist".

I'll do my best in the future to not be so general and document things better.

Please do. Generalizations only perpetuate this senseless "Class warfare" that always seems to go on in more casual-heavy forums. You don't see BG bashing on new players all the time. We're actually extremely new-friendly, and have massive threads dedicated to helping new/returning players adjust to the game as it is now. On the other hand, whenever I walk into Alla or many social/casual shells, all I see is leet-bashing. Elitists this, Elitists that. If I'm to believe half of the things people say about Elitists, then I'd have to be a botting douchenozzle who will hack your account for fun and post pictures of myself tossing your Empyreans in BG: Media.

[Crysten]

If you call out elite players, then you call me out. You can Karbuncle out. You call Byrthnoth out. This is the quintessential problem with sweeping generalizations. Honestly, I've been on both sides of this fence, and all I can say is it needs to stop.

I will definitely agree here. By and large I have a lot of respect for the BG community and what they contribute to the game. Players such as yourself, Byrthnoth, Kirschy, Nightfyre and several others have all been fantastic sources of information and as such, it is being unfair to lump you all together. I've seen that a lot of the more mature members of BG are pretty much on the same page.

That being said, much like you say, posts like this only serve to reinforce the negative stigma a lot of players have towards endgame as a whole. Hell, using uptempo's posts on the previous page as another example - would there be as much unneeded enmity if I said I totally agreed with an HNM/Einherjar point style system as he said?

I think a lot of the generalizations can go both ways. Any relic/empyrean comparison thread pre-level 90 was pretty good proof of the kind of people that the community tend to resent.

And yes, they aren't "elitist."