Final Heaven builds

[SNK]

In one word : you are an idiot. You just proved that you don't know how TP return work.

I think your ban on BG is almost up soon.

[Taint2]

I think your ban on BG is almost up soon.

Don't threaten me

[Shadowsong]

Atoreis go back to BG do bad maths and act like you know shit. It's easy to count the number of hits, you just have to count your TPs. All ws have n+1 hits if n is listed and the first 2 hits get a full tp return. Well except asuran fist but yeah...

Aww, where'd your sig quoting Atoreis go? I thought you were "sticking it to him"?

[Monchat]

So I decided to test my "Old Final Settup" vs. "STR/VIT/ATK Settup"
(Old Settup)
Spharai(95)
Tantra Tathlum
Genbu's Kabuto
Justiciar's Torque
Brutal Earring
Kemas Earring
Tantra Cyclas +2
Bandomusha Kote
Spiral Ring
Epona's Ring
Atheling Mantle
Anguinus Belt
Usukane Hizayaroi (Will eventually go with Hachiryu Haidate, unless something better comes out)
Ryuga Sune-Ate

Settup End Result:
Attack: 742
STR: 126
VIT: 137

"New Settup"
Spharai(95)
Tantra Tathlum
Genbu's Kabuto
Justiciar's Torque
Soil Pearl
Kemas Earring
Tantra Cyclas +2
Bandomusha Kote
Spiral Ring
Terrasoul Ring
Cerberus Mantle +1
Warwolf Belt
Usukane Hizayaroi (Will eventually go with Hachiryu Haidate, unless something better comes out)
Ryuga Sune-Ate

Settup End Result:
ATK: 723
STR: 135
VIT: 152

The results I came up with doing the math myself was that the "Old Settup" has the possibility of doing higher damage from time to time resulting from the dbl/trpl atk procs; where the "New Settup" results in a more even and consitant damage output. Both settups are very close to each other on an Average, but looking at the numbers after having recorded them adding more str/vit/atk will even you out. However, if you like seeing that occ. high damage from your FH then atk/dbl/trpl. atk settup would be the one for you. Al were performed without food, and boosted with Temple Gloves. All were preformed on same mobs.

Again, please comment ^^ they're welcome, been playing MNK a long time, but always open to learn something I maybe dont know or understand.

I basically agree with what you said. More or less the same gear. Just about the legs, don't get hachiryu just for Heaven ( good for VS or asuran though). It's possible to get +6 VIT on byakko's haidate as a common HQ3 augment too, if you don't want to farm Barbarossa's zereth ( which is a rare drop off The ashu talif BC #3).

After fucking around on lv 95-96 mobs in dynamis and parse, I decided I hate final heaven, for its inconstency. Reminded me why I hated SAM. One time you do 300 damage ( first hit missed) on time you do 3500...Then I realized final heaven still doesn't beat asuran fists most of the time, or at least not unless it tripple procs... despite the +25% damage boost lol thats kinda pathetic. Asuran fists has also the advantage of having 15-16 TP return while FH is 9-11.

With the following set ups for both WS, they math out to be about equal, slight advantage to asuran, if you dont triple (honestly have yet to triple a FH).

Final Heaven:
tantra thatlum, Genbu's kabuto, Light gorget, brutal earring, kemas earring, tantra cyclas+2,
ample gloves, spiral ring, epona's ring, atheling mantle, warwolf belt, barbarossa, ryuga.

Asuran:
thew bomblet, shura kabuto +1 (augment: str+1 WS+3%), shadow gorget, merman's, aesir, tantra cyclas+2, tantra gloves+2, mars's ring, spiral ring, atheling, anguinus, hachiryu leg, tantra leg+2.

Both can be better optimized obviously; for example tjurkuppa necklace for FH, Justiciar for asuran, b.kote ( sold my kotes long ago..) cerb+1 etc. But with those set up its pretty clear mathemetically that asuran wins:

FH with 3% DA, 11%TA and gorget has about 4.6fTP, and 145 VIT give 72 mods; With capped fSTR you have 109 base dmg so FH will look like

(109+72)*4.6*1.25=1040.

While asuran fists, with 141 STR and 107 VIT, has ~20 mods so its damage will look like:
(110+20)*8.1*1.03=1084.

Factor in the +60 attack asuran fists has, which should be 10% more damage at least, then you have a clear winner, asuran fists by 15-20% lol.

However after you take into account triple proc ( again I maybe saw one, that overkilled a low HP mob anyway), FH has a slight advantage, but that is annuled by asuran fists's naturally high return.

[MarkovChain]

I personnally have asuran fists lower on average but probably because I systematically assume dia2+ red curry buns and mobs with moderate defense. I'm actually studying the effect of "finite hp mobs" and the inherent idle time between pulls on the DPS. So far it seems that 2 or more seconds pause bewteen mobs and 10,000 HP mobs make relic shine over verethragna. I also tell to my algorithm not to us WS under 1k HP. With this in mind it seems that relic + FH is still better, though not by much (~1%) than relic + asuran, and both easily surpass vere(95) by 5%-10%. In practice it's much worse for vere since there is a decent amount of time where the aftermath is up but you can't use it, and since FH's aftermath sucks, you don't lose DPS with the relic if you turn your back. Also it's good news for relic owners if our next WS is better than asuran, which it should be. Also it's very good news for PUP if they ever get to equip spharai.

[MarkovChain]

Ok so after semi optimizing VS (can get 190 STR on elvaan fairly easily), FH ( ~145 str & vit), asuran (140 str and attack stock piled) I'm getting all three setups more or less on par.

VS average ~ 2511
FH average ~ 2175
asuran with relic ~ 1983

*with 0 waiting time against infinite HP mobs (level 96)
relic+FH is 7% worse than empy (not counting counter +)
relic + FH is 1.8% better than relic+asuran



*overall, with 3 sec waiting time between fights against 10,000 HP mobs (level 96) :
relic+FH is 6% better than empy (not counting counter +)
relic + FH is 1.5% better than relic+asuran

*with 4 sec waiting time between fights against 10,000 HP mobs (level 96):
relic+FH is 10% better than empy (not counting counter +)
relic + FH is 1.6% better than relic+asuran


Seems that Vere is better 'in theory" and relic is better "in practice". Like mdk pointed out the triple proc on WS, if it happens, is fairly pointless since it's going to one shot mobs and unless you just started (and proced) the mobs and a 3x proced. So in reality the good old asuran fists is .. still the best™.

edit : if I don't count that 3x can proc on ws

with 3 sec waiting time between fights against 10,000 HP mobs (level 96) I have

relic+FH = verethragna < relic + asuran as expected but everything is within ~1% range of each other.

[Gukai]

Really guys, this was my post, and I asked about FH builds. I care not and asked not for the empy, so get off it and go debate about it on another thread thats actually dedicated towards the discussion, I know they exist.

For the people who have stayed true to the intent of the FH build, thank you. I saw some interesting idea's and I am going to take the gear differences, 1 item at a time, and do some testing. I'll try the Justicier Torque (yay, I have that already), then I'll try the Atheling Mantle, and then Anguinus Belt, and Usu legs (I'll compare to the Hachiryu Haidate for thoroughness). I dont have Ryuga feet yet, bummer. I might look into the augments for byakko short-shorts though. I saw Tsjukruppas necklace mentioned and the Portus Ring that has the h2h skill and vit from one of the Tavnazia boss (nice catch).
I have always been a 'in the field' kind of tester, although I see some of you do the math side and some of you noticed that your math results werent matching your actual findings! I just plan to pick a high mob that has a consistent level to fight, get max and average damages with one item, swap it for a new item and see the differences. Nothing too scientific, but like those who actually paid attention to the topic, we just want to try something else and see if we can learn more how to push our limits! Thanks again

[Greatguardian]

Like anyone cares what the OP thinks after a topic's been started.

What kind of WS frequency are you assuming when comparing Relic and Empyrean with delays between fights, Pchan? I'm having trouble imagining a 3 or 4 second delay between fights causing Aftermath to be down for any significant amount of time with Vere, especially if you're getting Marches and/or Samba. It could just be the targets, though. Delays like that would add up quickly in short fights against weak monsters, notsomuch against anything stronger.

[MarkovChain]

I don't assume any ws frequency, everything is simulated but I can give it. The x second delay greatly affects the empy but what also affects it is the limited HP and the fact that I choose not to WS under 1k HP remaining.

I actually corrected my spharai setups since it's gaining more haste from gjallahorn than +51 delay weapons, so it's even stronger.

The freq=#rounds/ws doesn't depend on mob delay it is
[6.688941455 for relic+FH, 7.049318624 for empy, 6.304524362 for relic+asuran]
It's lower for asuran because of higher TP return ( 0.38 rounds and it gets 4-5 more tp which is about that)

If I set mob's HP at 10k and choose not to ws under 1HP remaining (which means I always ws), it naturally puts the ws freq to what it should be in theory (if you don't hold tp at low HP)
[6.416572077, 6.809552600, 6.081125828]
In this case relic+asuran still wins though.

So it seems that what greatly affects dps is when AM is up and you swap mobs. Same problem as mythics btw. If I set the delay to zero, in which cas vere wins, I'm getting ~ 410-450 damage per second depending on weapons so that's ~24 seconds to kill a mob so a 2,3, or 4 second delay is necessarily important. Look at it this way : whenever you get the AM effect, you remove 2-4 seconds from it because it will be up when you pause.

Note : the algorithm is not perfect yet since I count full ws damage even if it's overkill.

[Atoreis]

So Relic can now proc x3 on WS cool.

If you really think Veret wont win with Spharai(using FH) in term of pure damage you might rethink doing a math for this game at all ^^