[dev1007] Voidwatch: Obtaining Spoils

[cidbahamut]

No one "hated" abyssea content.

What they "hated" was easy drops for the mass's and the lack of "exclusivity" they previously felt over having dolled out enough oral manipulation to their LS leaders.

This crap again? Honestly?

[Elro]

Finally decided to log in to the forum for the first time just to post on this topic.

The loot distribution for Voidwatch and it's associated drop rate is probably one of the worse if not worst system ever implemented in a MMORPG. I thought getting seals you didn't need or want (but couldn't share) from doing ops and quest was bad, annoying and frustrating but VW system puts it to shame.

Abyssea was fun, at least for me and my group. I felt it was a move in a positive direction. Unfortunately Voidwatch and recent trials seems to be detrimental move in the wrong direction of horrible drop rate and excessive amounts of efforts for mediocre returns. Is SE trying to drive their player base away? If they are they are doing a good job.

[Yinnyth]

No one "hated" abyssea content.

What they "hated" was easy drops for the mass's and the lack of "exclusivity" they previously felt over having dolled out enough oral manipulation to their LS leaders. Abyssea didn't require an LS to get what you wanted, LS's made things faster but they weren't a requirement. Abyssea was designed for small groups to go out and get everything, PUG's broke it down into "4 man" events to maximize personal loot distribution, but friends could easily do 5,6,7 man runs to get people what they needed / wanted. XP was no longer a grind, you could level any job you wanted and play around on it without having to devote months to getting it to "75". In essence abyssea was about the 95% of a games population that doesn't go around bragging about how much gear they have or which relic they recently acquired. The 5% hated this vehemently and just happen to be the most vocal about ~everything~. Abyssea also had a built in difficult adjustment. If you felt it was "too hard" you could get crour buffs and atma's to make it "easier". If you felt it was "too easy" you could chose not to get the buffs and go all "hardcore". Guess how many people chose to do thing without the buffs?

Those same people who complain about abyssea being "easy" are the ones complaining that everyone has an "emp" and that everyone else's emp is better then their relic.

Argument you're opposing: Some people hated Abyssea.
Your opening argument: No one hated abyssea.
Supporting argument: Only idiots and jerks hated abyssea, and they were only 5% of the population, they're just really loud.

Btw, I disliked Abyssea. It's half the reason we're having this discussion over VW loot. VW loot is more generous than pre-abyssea loot systems, but because it's not as generous as abyssea, we have a sense of "downgrade". That is to say, each hour we put into VW doesn't put out as much as it did back in the last days of abyssea. Note: the first 3 zones were a lot like other events in the game at the time, and it wasn't as easy because people didn't have 9 zones worth of abyssite and atma. The same is still bound to happen to VW, though probably not quite to the same magnitude.

[Nynja]

VW loot is more generous than pre-abyssea loot systems, but because it's not as generous as abyssea, we have a sense of "downgrade".

Yeah, ummm....not quite. I'd say the drop rate is on par to salvage (based on testimonials that people have gone 20+ fights without seeing a body piece on any char, with individual treasure pools I'm allowed to do this calculation 20x18 = 0/360), except you cant pick your item destination. Imagine doing ramparts, and those lovely usu ft 35's drop...but the game says "your whm gets em, no discussion".

[Byrth]

It's not actually more generous than pre-Abyssea loot systems.

If you and your 17 friends zerged Dynamis Lord 50 times at 75, you'd all have Shadow Mantles and most (if not all) of you would have Shadow Rings. It would take half a year.

If you and your 17 friends zerged Qilin 50 times, some of you would get boots, some of you would get gorgets, some of you would get Lux Puglios, and maybe one or two of you would get a Corsucanti. It could theoretically be done in one to two days, assuming you never lose and don't need to sleep, eat, piss, etc. Furthermore, you have no control over who gets what drop, so one of your friends may have nothing while another has gotten seven pairs of boots.

If you don't think the drop rates are that bad... think again! The main difference between this system and pre-Abyssea loot systems is that it's spammable. Pre-Abyssea, none of the "big" events were spammable. Limbus had a 3 day timer. Dynamis had a 3 day timer. Kings were 4-7 days with NQs every 21-24 hours. The drop rates were higher, but the event rates were lower. Now that SE has effectively eliminated xping/meritting as an event, they need something else to fill the time. Cue Voidwatch, because you could fight the same monster once every 30 minutes for the next week and still not get the drop you're looking for while your friend gets four.

[Insaniac]

The lower tier AH-able trade-able stuff is fine. If you cap lights you usually see at least 2 of them and they can be given to other people if you are in an LS setting. Saying the drop rates on the good stuff from T3/4 vwnms is better than pre-abyssea? You are out of your mind. Yes you will probably get at least 1 of the rare drops every 15-20 fights but that in no way makes them a 5% drop rate when you consider that you have to be the lucky one to get it to drop into your chest. If you are just a little unlucky you could kill the same NM 300 times and never get the drop you are after.

[Yinnyth]

Yeah, ummm....not quite. I'd say the drop rate is on par to salvage (based on testimonials that people have gone 20+ fights without seeing a body piece on any char, with individual treasure pools I'm allowed to do this calculation 20x18 = 0/360), except you cant pick your item destination. Imagine doing ramparts, and those lovely usu ft 35's drop...but the game says "your whm gets em, no discussion".

Is that what you base your calculations on? Cherry picked-testimonials (check the thread about 11 pairs of fajin boots, then base your math on that) from people on the internet (the most reliable place to find nothing but truth) which you then base merely the drop rate of ONE item divided by the number of players there. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that you attempted to express your frustration in a mathematically quantifiable way, but there are a few fallacies in there.

First of all, how generous a loot system is cannot be based solely on how many loot pools don't contain the desired item. I will attempt to list the factors of what determines how generous a loot system is:
1. Desirability of all items, not just one.
2. Difficulty of the battle and consequences of failure (full wipe in Salvage means no more attempts that day).
3. Average time required to go from not doing the battle (in town, having just finished the same fight previously, gathering pop items, etc) to victory.
4. How frequently the fight can be repeated.
5. Competition/claim rate, if applicable (King Behemoth)
6. Drop rate of desired items.
7. Arverage percentage of needs met per drop (Solo KB and he drops defending ring? 100% of needs met).

I'm probably forgetting a few factors to consider, but that's what I can come up with right now. So comparing it to 35 usu feet, that's just one of the 3 drops you need to finish the desired item. Imagine you need to get 3 drops from VW to make those bodies. Also, Skirmish can choose not to spawn, imagine popping the VW, and it's a low quality mob which can't drop what you want. Also, Salvage can be done only once a day, imagine if you only had that one chance per day in VW. Also, Skirmish (back in the day) required a cell grind before you could reach him, so imagine if you had to fight several lesser VWs before getting to your NM.

I could go on a bit more, but this is tedious to write (and I imagine twice as tedious to read), so I'll just say

TL;DR:
You're oversimplifying things intentionally to exaggerate your point.

[Yinnyth]

It's not actually more generous than pre-Abyssea loot systems.

If you and your 17 friends zerged Dynamis Lord 50 times at 75, you'd all have Shadow Mantles and most (if not all) of you would have Shadow Rings. It would take half a year.

The thing that confuses me is that we seem to agree on the underlying idea, but you're still saying VW has a less generous loot system than pre-abyssea events. When I say "generous" I don't mean the drop rate per kill is better, I mean the return on investment is better. If VW had come out at the same time as LoO, I'm certain there would be more Coruscantis than Kraken Clubs, Ridills, and Defending Rings combined.

[Byrth]

I just don't think that's true. The time it takes to get stones, gather, and kill four Qilin is about equal to the time it took to do a DL run at 75 (probably longer - we used to clear DL in an hour and a half), and the odds that you'll get a Corsucanti (1% or less) are lower than the odds that you'd win Shadow Ring free lot against an alliance (~2%).

The fact that it is possible to spam Voidwatch doesn't mean it has higher drop rates or takes less time to get drops, it just means that you can waste time on the event faster.

[Yinnyth]

How old was the event when you were clearing in 90 minutes? Did you then leave Dynamis, or spend the last 120 minutes farming? How many people did you have and how frequently did you wipe? A wipe in Dynamis means game over, a wipe in VW means you can get up and try again from the start.

VW still has a long ways to go (They've announced 2 more chapters over the coming year). There will be new levels, new gear, new atmacites, new strategies, etc. Don't compare getting a coruscanti now to getting a shadow ring the day before they changed dynamis. Compare getting a coruscanti now to getting a shadow ring back when Dynamis - Xarcabard was a few months old. Or to getting an Usukane body when Salvage was a few months old. Or getting a Nashira body when Limbus was a few months old. Or W legs when Kirin was new.