Give every job dual wield at 99

[noodles355]

Oh great, another bloody rdm melee topic. Rdm, equally geared and played will always be worse at DD than a dedicated melee job, and every moron who says otherwise is trying to compare their view of a good rdm melee with a terrible [other DD].

My Rdm out-DDs Wars in Dom Op parties, does that make me better or equal to war as a job? Hell no. It just means I'm a better player than said Wars, and was I on War myself, I would be doing significantly more damge still.

As far as bst goes: You're complaining you have to make a choice of shadows+pet PDT-10% against being able to cure with MP? Big whoop-di-doop. Almost all jobs have to make choices and sacrifices through subjob choices. It's part of the game, get over it.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

On this line of reasoning, Galkas with Dual Wield should be able to dual wield Tarus, who may have Dual Wield themselves.

And the tarus are dual wielding pixies. Pixies who also have Dual Wield.

In 3rd edition there was a feat called swarm fighting which you could take as long as you weren't and larger then small. It gave you +1 to attack and damage for each other ally in "the swarm" that also had the feat. Ah the good old days of the ball of writhing halflings.

[Economizer]

Surya's staff +3: Cure potency +23%

Sure, getting the best cure potency set you can with the Surya's Staff is easier to get then the best cure potency set you'd use with a Tefnut Wand, but using a Tefnut Wand will produce better cures. The math is very, very clear. As before, Dual Wield would benefit this - the best club is better then the best shield when gearing to cure.

Until the Surya's Staff can bring some Mind to the table, or grips start to have large stat boosts, the Staff option just falls behind in a variety of cases. It won't make or break the mage to have them or not, but ultimately, arbitrarily shutting out the option for analysis just because you don't want someone you want to sit in the back to hold a weapon that shares a category with something that can actually do damage is not very wise.

The problem with your last statement is that it isn't. Last time I saw math on it for Blu who has similar but better gear for meleeing than Rdm, Dual Wield III was better than Dual Wield II+Berserk (of course, DA was unaccounted for since you can set it regardless of sub), Unless you were benefiting from both Zerk and Aggressor, otherwise it was at best equal. Without at minimum dual wield 2 I don't see Dual wield I being very useful on Rdm and barely useful on Whm, and only for Tefnut/Templar.

I wasn't talking about comparing Dual Wield III to Dual Wield I or II. I was talking about comparing it to not having Dual Wield at all. Sometimes you can't limit your sub to Ninja or Dancer.

If I remember correctly, RDM use to be very deadly using a man hand sword, off hand dagger.... or was it the other way around? The current way RDM goes against what the job was envisioned to be. It's unfair to limit them to staves only.

As for WHM... Tefnut Want + augmented Genbu shield argument to not using a staff asside, does not need duel wield trait. Melee WHM are a novelty, but regular WHM can still survive just about anything through self curing. Curing speed, one of the most important things to me personally, makes subbing /RDM or /SCH much more preferable to subbing /NIN or /DNC.

I can understand where having a natural dual wield to every job is attractive, but it seems like a trait that would be out of place with much needed re-balance when you start to consider using another subjob. Nevermind the fact that BST are already one of the still one of the most self sufficient, solo jobs with even the most basic of gear.

White Mage melee certainly isn't a novelty if you are trying to solo anything as one. Curing yourself for five minutes won't kill a monster if you are the only one doing damage, even if you are casting every Divine Magic nuke and even Impact every chance you get. Not every situation in this game is an alliance battle versus mobs that will kill anything they look at that doesn't have over a few thousand health.

Of course, does a White Mage need Dual Wield natively? Does a Red Mage? Does Beastmaster? Again, like I said before, while it would be beneficial towards the classes, it does not necessarily make it happening a good idea from a flavor or balance standpoint.

[Babekeke]

And assuming player skill is equal exactly what jobs is a melee RDM better than?

Just being better than a garage sale THF wearing whatever he found in the laundry basket and dual wielding a thief's knife and heartsnatcher because he leveled it for TH and doesn't care does not mean that your damage doesn't suck.

Welcome to Red mage Melee theory: The only job in the game that can dual-wield 2 relic weapons.

[Economizer]

Welcome to Red mage Melee theory: The only job in the game that can dual-wield 2 relic weapons.

Hate to be a buzz kill, but the hidden effects on Relic and Mythic weapons don't function when placed in the off hand, at least from what I've heard.

As before, this is in no way an endorsement for or against Red Mage melee, nor one for or against Dual Wield for jobs that don't have it natively. Just a statement of facts.

[Urthdigger]

Honestly, I'm not surprised a RDM doesn't outparse "real" DD in a given situation. RDM can buff, cure themselves, and enfeeble the monster. For most real DD, dealing damage is pretty much all they do, with the only melee coming close in that department being DNC, but RDM has the better buffs, and it's not like DNC is top of the tier either. But on the other hand, I do not consider melee RDM useless.

I don't expect RDM to melee on high level NMs. You don't even want most of your real DDs to melee on those half the time. However, when farming pop items, or trying to get lights in abyssea, or fighting mooks in dynamis, or xping, or any other case where you're fighting monsters of only moderate difficulty, I have no problem with a RDM melee, assuming they're fulfilling their other duties as well.

[MDenham]

Hate to be a buzz kill, but the hidden effects on Relic and Mythic weapons don't function when placed in the off hand, at least from what I've heard.

Even without the hidden effects, that's still two very good weapons paired together.

This also isn't an endorsement for or against RDM melee, just a commentary on the commentary.

[Quetzacoatl]

How 'bout I dual-wield facepalms to this thread

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Oh great, another bloody rdm melee topic. Rdm, equally geared and played will always be worse at DD than a dedicated melee job, and every moron who says otherwise is trying to compare their view of a good rdm melee with a terrible [other DD].

My Rdm out-DDs Wars in Dom Op parties, does that make me better or equal to war as a job? Hell no. It just means I'm a better player than said Wars, and was I on War myself, I would be doing significantly more damge still.

As far as bst goes: You're complaining you have to make a choice of shadows+pet PDT-10% against being able to cure with MP? Big whoop-di-doop. Almost all jobs have to make choices and sacrifices through subjob choices. It's part of the game, get over it.

I love that one person remarks on something said about RDM and you call it a RDM Melee topic, Exaggeration much!?

Seriously WHM was mentioned too, should we call it a WHM Melee topic aswell?

[noodles355]

Exaggeration much!?

One person remarked on Rdm melee? Exaggeration much!? Pot calling the kettle black?