Cure V

[Hyrist]

To people that says that rdm dont need cure V... stop a few and think before say something please..

Right there you start the conversation off on a bad note. This takes away from your entire argument, implying that those who oppose Cure V haven't thought about it for a long... long time.

Rdm was meant to be good at healing and at nuking, but not the better on anything, that's okay.
Nuke wise we are ok, but healing wise we should be better than blms, smns, schs, pups,

We should not be better than Scholars at healing, in fact I'd argue we should be worse, as we we have a different toolset.

We are better than puppet-masters due to the AI problems they have, but I'm guessing you haven't been in the company of them long.

Summoners are debatable, given that they have support and healing function with their avatars. I'd actually like to argue that Summoner should be better at their healing role than where they are, and at bare minimum comparable in that role.

You left out Dancer and Blue Mage.

Again, this isn't an argument against making RDM and SCH better healers. It's about a 10 second cooldown spell with easily over 1k+ heal results with the hate of Cure III. There's no balancing in that spell and to give RDM and SCH the ability to spam it (which with their MP endurance they could easily do.) WOULD seriously upset the balance on several fronts.

1. Giving RDM Cure V would destroy the case argument for better buffs and debuffs. "Why do you need better de/buffs? You have Cure V. Just heal the damage."

2. It detracts from every other healer and healing magic by making their capacity to heal a determent to them, as it had to be balanced against their capacity to do damage. And as all it would take is 1 Cure V spammer to cover the entire party that utility becomes unneeded, unwanted, and ultimately unused. That is bad game design. Better to give RDM an ability to globally improve healing as a whole. (Or make it a self-buff if people are worried.)

Red Mage isn't lacking in cure Potency anymore. Most mage jobs can now cap it. Unless they regard healing on a more global level to make it useful beyond a certain key jobs, giving RDM and/or SCH Cure V will actually cause more harm than it's worth. It's a copout to larger problems the game is suffering right now.

And among those, I'd say the HoT (Healing over Time) aspects are suffering much worse than spike healing, as Regens really didn't scale well with HP gains.

The largest of these problems with Cure V is that Red Mage needs a better buff/debuff game before they need better heals, and SE needs to carefully balance that. Right now I cannot see Red Mage being both potent at reducing damage and posses Cure V to restore it. Even if you say it will be balanced among outside sources, which I disagree with wholeheartedly, that still dosen't change the fact that Cure V undermine Red Mage's core functions, as listed in the Manifesto.

I'll be willing to change that opinion if SE makes a real attempt to balance our Enfeebles better and fails. But I will not undermine the effort to make Red Mage's core purpose more potent and stand on it's own right by requesting a spell that will do just that in one fell swoop.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Why the heck should we be worse at healing than a job who learns cures after us...? It's okay for them to be better nukers and crowd control but both jobs can't be better healers then Brd and Blm, I'm sorry what?

My Taru Rdm is 10 points shy of 1.2k HP, 2 Cure 4s don't cut it on myself. On a race with the lowest HP pool. You're crazy if you think it cuts it for anything worth a damn.

[Mageoholic]

Dude shut up. WHM can heal just as long as either RDM or SCH while subbing /RDM or /SCH, they have access to the exact same MP endurance tool set as either job, as well as their own unique MP savings set with AFv3+2 pants.

As for the wonderful gem about our enfeebles. Our enfeebles are great, the issue is that SE has made everything either immune, or redundant to cast on (see TP moves being used as regular attacks).

You just don't want C5 because you are too afraid you might be shoved into exclusively being pink mage again. You are worried you won't be able to pull out your little sword and swing away. Christ dude stop playing the limitation card on one of the most useful roles a RDM can full fill. DD are a dime a dozen, healers are not. You do the math.

[Swords]

You just don't want C5 because you are too afraid you might be shoved into exclusively being pink mage again.

You can't blame him, most people who play RDM on at least a regular basis back in those days vehemently despised that role we were pidgonholed into. And while I agree to a point with Hyrist, the pro-cure V people are right in their arguments too. WHM does have access to most of the mp reduction tools they didn't have available back then and a plethora of new abilities that tbh would be overkill in most non-abyssean situations, but here's where Hyrist's point starts to stand out because most non-abyssean content does not need absurd amounts of healing, and with access to Accession via /SCH, it would let us handle most situations allowing RDM to possibly debunk WHM for all but the most difficult content like back then.

And yes I know, both sides have made their arguments, but the fact is SE is still trotting around the fear of jobs stealing other's roles (hypocritical I know), making RDM overpowered in too many aspects, and that they're trying desperately to prevent the era of Avesta 2.0 from occurring.

[Neisan_Quetz]

And that was then. This is now. Welcome to the future, you can park your versatility at the door and get in line with everyone else waiting for SE's 'adjustments' to be handed out.

If your non abyssea situations is old content then yes, Cure V is overkill. For stuff a Blu can solo.

[Swords]

98% of the game IS old content, and besides what point has this game changed in retrospect from now and back then, differences now is most everyone got buffed, some more levels, and some got a sj boost. Concept is still the same, go in and zerg everything the game has to offer it doesn't matter how good the job is as long as it's good enough to do what we need it for.

The game needs to be stepped up enough imo to where zerg tactics can't be abused and things pose a considerable challenge, before we get something like Cure V which could unintendedly hurt our job growth in the long run. Or at the very least WAIT until they fix a majority of the other RDM issues as a whole before giving us Cure V.

I'd really hate to see good ideas for RDM go overlooked because they said "Well they could really use this but they got Cure V now that might make them too powerful" speech.

[FrankReynolds]

We should not be better than Scholars at healing, in fact I'd argue we should be worse, as we we have a different toolset.

Yes we should.

It's about a 10 second cooldown spell with easily over 1k+ heal results with the hate of Cure III. There's no balancing in that spell and to give RDM and SCH the ability to spam it (which with their MP endurance they could easily do.) WOULD seriously upset the balance on several fronts.

My White Mage has plenty of refresh, I abuse the hell out of Cure V and VI.

1. Giving RDM Cure V would destroy the case argument for better buffs and debuffs. "Why do you need better de/buffs? You have Cure V. Just heal the damage."

No it wouldn't. Curing is not the only thing that Red Mage is supposed to be good at.

2. It detracts from every other healer and healing magic by making their capacity to heal a determent to them, as it had to be balanced against their capacity to do damage. And as all it would take is 1 Cure V spammer to cover the entire party that utility becomes unneeded, unwanted, and ultimately unused. That is bad game design. Better to give RDM an ability to globally improve healing as a whole. (Or make it a self-buff if people are worried.)

White Mage would still be needed for anything that does AOE damage or massive debuffs. White Mage is already not really necessary for anything that does not. Nothing changes.

And among those, I'd say the HoT (Healing over Time) aspects are suffering much worse than spike healing, as Regens really didn't scale well with HP gains.

Healing over time sucks because when you are fighting something that requires large amounts of healing, you need to get players topped off as fast as possible. If you have time for HP to regenerate on a per tic basis, you probably don't really need much healing to begin with.

The largest of these problems with Cure V is that Red Mage needs a better buff/debuff game before they need better heals, and SE needs to carefully balance that. Right now I cannot see Red Mage being both potent at reducing damage and posses Cure V to restore it. Even if you say it will be balanced among outside sources, which I disagree with wholeheartedly, that still dosen't change the fact that Cure V undermine Red Mage's core functions, as listed in the Manifesto.

If Cure v would conflict with "Red Mage's core functions" than so would Cure IV, III, II, etc., this is simply not true.

I'll be willing to change that opinion if SE makes a real attempt to balance our Enfeebles better and fails. But I will not undermine the effort to make Red Mage's core purpose more potent and stand on it's own right by requesting a spell that will do just that in one fell swoop.

This guy nailed it.

You just don't want C5 because you are too afraid you might be shoved into exclusively being pink mage again. You are worried you won't be able to pull out your little sword and swing away.

[Hyrist]

Skipping the obvious flame baiting, and keeping myself from repeating myself too many times...

I don't see how hard it is to accept getting spells that would remove the need for cure V over simply getting Cure V. If we're better at preventing damage, you don't need as strong of a healer, and if for some reason you do get RDM and WHM together, there is less overlap going on. Doing this would be more healthy for the job, and job dynamic than simply giving RDM Cure V. Role redundancy has often been a problem with RDM, and stepping away from the higher tier cures and focusing more on damage prevention would do a great deal to solve this problem.

Topped off with Kinimatic's suggestion to up the current cures we have. (Something I believe we could receive in buff form.)And some of the good debuff ideas presented, I've yet to hear an actual clear argument against this alternative.

In fact, the only arguments coming out are at me personally (and are often Red Herrings like the one RCD tried to make.)

So here's the question:Why not debuffs? Why does it have to be specifically, Cure V?

Because the only argument I've heard so far for Cure V that wouldn't be addressed by added cure capacity over time, and damage prevention is that Cure IV is available via subjob, which I can understand. (But what prevents SE from just raising Cure IV on RDM to 50? I doubt that'll be harmful to the low level dynamic considering how people level nowadays.) My alternative to that would be a buff to enhance our cures. Perhaps it can be a RDM specific buff that conflicts with temper.

You're free to disagree with whatever concerns I have with Cure V, but with the spell in contention (Not just by members of the player-base but obviously by the developers as well considering they've held out this long) and a clear alternative route that would be better overall, why not take it?

Or at the very least WAIT until they fix a majority of the other RDM issues as a whole before giving us Cure V.

I'd really hate to see good ideas for RDM go overlooked because they said "Well they could really use this but they got Cure V now that might make them too powerful" speech.

This is the core point, for those who can't read what I'm writing on virtue that 'it's Hyrist saying it'.

There was so much hassle when Temper came out on how it was a waste of development time/etc. But do we really have a unified idea as to what we're to do with Red Mage? A number of you just seem to want to convert the job into just a healer. Is this your desire or vision for the class or are you just trying to find a solution to the frustration of not being able to top off player's hit points?

[cidbahamut]

If we're better at preventing damage, you don't need as strong of a healer

Because having Stun always let Black Mages be awesome healers, right?

So here's the question:Why not debuffs? Why does it have to be specifically, Cure V?

Why not both? Someone other than White Mage getting Cure V isn't going to dethrone them no matter how badly you want to convince yourself and others.

[Stylin]

Why not both? Someone other than White Mage getting Cure V isn't going to dethrone them no matter how badly you want to convince yourself and others.

All I'm seeing here is "lol just trust me guys srsly". Sounds more like you're trying your hardest to fool yourself into believing RDM won't be the only healer again.

If RDM got Cure 5 sometime between 75 and 80 I would have had no reason to level WHM. Sure Cureskin is nice but you can live without it. That's the entire bulk of the problem. For all the pros WHM has for raw curing you can live without it.

It's really disappointing to think that some of you people only want Cure 5 because "You're not useful anymore", like it's a panacea for your problems. Even more so that you trick yourself into believing anybody that wants to pursue a different route is a dirty RDMelee commie.