Lack of decent Red Mage Gear

[Economizer]

It's the game telling you "Hey, this is a caster not a melee".

Hybrid. And even White Mages had decent melee gear at 75. Neither overshadowed "proper" melee jobs, but both (and the other casters who get melee roles) aren't getting as many pieces of decent melee gear outside of equips for all jobs. It isn't asking for much to ask that gear continue to scale for one of the playstyle options.

Obviously we get gain-chr so we can sub brd or bst right?

Aside from the obvious ones mentioned, Dagger WS mod.

If people like you keep complaining about the melee aspect, which only affects the weak mobs/casual events/solo aspect of the job, then SE will think melee is all rdms care about and wont boost the mage side, which affects every aspect of the job. That's a problem. That's reason enough for you to keep your trap shut about rdm melee until we recieve the important mage updates we need.

You can ask for both and get both. False dichotomy.

Actually, since there is a large community that is actively trying to make melee mages shut up (and they will never stop, not even if they get all that they want, so that's an invalid argument) the people who want melee things have to shout louder. Basically, if there weren't so many people telling mages who want to melee to shut up, there wouldn't be so many mages wanting to melee talking so much on the forums. The fault is squarely on those who troll the melee request threads.

TYou will also notice RDM gets left off of mage gear also. There are magic attack bonus pieces that WHM can use but RDM can't, and there was that cure potency body that SMN could equip but we couldn't. It would seem this is a way for SE to limit the job's potential, as if they are worried that a few gear choices might make the job overpowered. It wouldn't.

White Mage gets tacked on to just about every piece of mage gear and a bunch of light armor that usually also has the letters MNK / WHM / RDM / THF starting off the gear roster.

While I'm not one to complain about White Mage getting more gear choices, it always baffles me about all the Magic Attack Bonus gear that White Mage is tacked on. If you are trying to do damage as a White Mage, Divine Magic is the last thing you want to be doing (okay, maybe second to last, curing the mobs, even if they are undead is worse), and until recently Magic Attack Bonus gear did little to nothing for melee (although this seems to be more noticeable for weapon skills Red Mage gets, not White Mage).

I suppose as a White Mage I can pop Dark Arts from my sub and cast Impact now? It isn't like Flash Nova is particularly impressive compared to other magical WS even with some Magic Attack Bonus, and if you are using a WS as a White Mage, usually it is a better option to either Hexa Strike or Black Halo.

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More back to the melee side, Doombringer and Saevel mention a lot of good gear and choices as always. Red Mage isn't so pathetically behind, but like any mage looking to melee, getting a solid continuation of gear as the levels go up would be nice.

The absolute terror that the anti-melee crowd displays at the prospect that any mage might want to have their current melee power to scale with levels, or even worse, *gasp* increase is confusing. It won't kill the game to have people play roles outside the ones you might want to pigeonhole them into.

[Scuro]

lol I think its funny because every RDM topic can't help but be turned into a DD RDM topic, because the DD RDMs are more outspoken then the mages. Even though the poll thread shows that DD RDMs are the minority.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

lol I think its funny because every RDM topic can't help but be turned into a DD RDM topic, because the DD RDMs are more outspoken then the mages. Even though the poll thread shows that DD RDMs are the minority.

The poll proved nothing since people like you, (lvl.49 RDM) also voted.

[Swords]

lol I think its funny because every RDM topic can't help but be turned into a DD RDM topic, because the DD RDMs are more outspoken then the mages. Even though the poll thread shows that DD RDMs are the minority.

Welp, most people would rather argue with the pro-melee crowd rather than let the subject die off, besides that we don't exactly see many of the pro-mage side really making threads of realistic fixes/ideas to the mage side or even putting much of a front that isn't trying to be some counter-argument to a melee debate. Hell I've seen the pro-melee/indifferent side come up with more ideas for RDM's mage aspect than many of the folks who are trying to perpetuate mage only. Really the pro-melee crowd isn't all that outspoken, it's more along the lines of the pro-mage crowd isn't saying anything that isn't some argument against the melee side.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Actually Crimson/Blood Scale mail makes a respectable body piece if your willing to invest time/money into getting the potential +3 Haste +6 STR augments.

You could also sit down and make one replace both Goliard and Morrigan's body for Rdm as well, and still be useful in a convert set (pluviale is still highest hp/mp piece iirc). Of course, you're probably going to be there awhile.

For body I made DW ACP body and camped Ose for AJ (people were killing coeurls for trials but just leave him alone), kept Antares from when I didn't have loki's on Blu.

[Kitkat]

Welp, most people would rather argue with the pro-melee crowd rather than let the subject die off, besides that we don't exactly see many of the pro-mage side really making threads of realistic fixes/ideas to the mage side or even putting much of a front that isn't trying to be some counter-argument to a melee debate. Hell I've seen the pro-melee/indifferent side come up with more ideas for RDM's mage aspect than many of the folks who are trying to perpetuate mage only. Really the pro-melee crowd isn't all that outspoken, it's more along the lines of the pro-mage crowd isn't saying anything that isn't some argument against the melee side.

This is rather true. Most the pro-mage rdm make just as outlandish request for fixes as the pro-melee crowd. "But our fixes are realistic and apply to what rdm should be" BS, rdm is a hybrid. It always has been a hybrid, it always will be a hybrid. Whether it is nuking, curing, or meleeing it will always be worse off than the actual nukers, healers, and melee specific jobs. Makes me wonder why people get so offended when someone actually asks to have the job re-balanced to fit the role it was made to be in the first place: Back-up/Hybrid roles.

Yes, rdm can heal....but it is still backup....no, it can't heal better than a whm...no it shouldn't..no it won't ever. Yes, rdm can nuke...but it is still backup...no, it can't do it better than blm...no it shouldn't,...no it won't ever. Yes, a rdm can melee...but it is still back up...no it won't do it better/on par with a real melee...no it shouldn't...no it won't ever.

Gear to accommodate healing is actually better now than it ever has been. Gear for nuking....is better now than it ever has been. Gear for melee.....is still lacking, and it is completely acceptable that people would actually want more selection for melee. If you don't agree with that, fine, but the fact remains rdm was intended to be able to fit various roles based on the initial idea of rdm, and still advertised "fighter-mage" prospect SE gave to it, and the Subjob system which changes the utility of any job based on the sub it uses. If you disagree with this, then you obviously haven't taken a step back and noticed how roles of various jobs change based on the subs they use. Not a hard concept to see or grasp, yet it seems a ton of people do when taking either side of the rdm debate.

Not taking advantage of the various Gain-spells has its pitfalls, but the only useful ones to a pro-mage would be mnd, vit, int (remember cure spells have a Vit modifier too), alternatively a pro-melee would use str, vit, dex, or agi depending on what they are doing or want to increase for mods. Currently, two of these spells are not in our roster yet and affect either of the roles you choose to play. Also, to correct Economizer, Chr only affects Dancing Edge, which rdm can't use as far as dagger WS go meaning the only gain-spell that would be pertinent is str to increase fStr (this caps rather low for dagger so may not even need unless sporting a Mandau) or dex which isn't out yet.

What is my position on the debate? I'm neither pro-melee or pro-mage because either side wants something that will upset the balance of what rdm was meant to be. I can agree that Curing as a rdm has a massive pitfall right now and that is primarily due to the soft caps of an obsolete equation taking into consideration the average HP range of melee in or out of abyssea and should be addressed. I however do not think rdm needs to be given cure V nor Regen IV (even III would be pushing it, but you'd have to think outside of the box to see why).

Alternatively I can agree that for the melee aspects Rdm has been grossly neglected when it comes to specialized gear for WS and updated TP body choices. Yes, rdm has gotten better haste options in the form of head, hands, feet, legs, and waist, but over all body choices have been outright ignored, forgotten, or "too strong" for a rdm to use apparently. Specific weapons that increase enspell dmg, or give additional stats under the effect of enspell have been neglected or made weaker (the change to chimeric Fleurette seems uncalled for given the nature of the blade, but then it is rather accessible with the right group making it "easy" to get). However, I can not agree to some of the suggestions that rdm should get Fencer as a passive trait or to have Saboteur or Composure changed just to accommodate a greater ease to melee or mage play. Composure does a great job of fixing the biggest pitfall of rdm-melee: Negates the need to recast buffs so often while giving an additional 15 accuracy loosening the gap of skill difference a rdm has to primary melee. Saboteur works great and has a relatively low reuse time, neither of these JA should need to be changed and most certainly not to make it easier for a rdm to melee.

What should be changed however is the make up of the Merits rdm was given, they are absolute trash considering the function rdm used to have above all else and is the only A+ skill they have: Enfeebling that stands apart from everyone else. This seems to be the only actual function SE wanted rdm to excel at, but in the last 5 years...has fallen flat on its face. Tier II enfeebles need to be learn-able/scroll form spells with Tier II merits that actually enhance these spell effects or give rdm a totally unique option to use. I'm sorry, but these spells were obsolete from the get go since you couldn't have them all without being called a gimp due to potency/duration being absolute crap compared to someone you merited 2~3 specifically. As far as utility, this is probably the biggest change rdm absolutely needs.

As far as I'm concerned both the pro-mage onry and pro-melee onry people need to get off their soap boxes and need to seek a balanced common ground. The job wasn't meant to fit either role exclusively and shouldn't be made to. It was the first hybrid job SE put in FFXI then blu came along. The difference between blu and rdm is non-consequential as the two jobs still fit very different aspects of play but still have very big pitfalls compared to actual Primary jobs. I'm not going to discuss blu's pitfalls because anyone who plays the job already knows them (aside from scuro, he is absolutely disillusioned and can't accept actual data/facts) and I've already pointed out not only here but in several other topics in this sub-forum that rdm has.

Best part is that almost all of these jobs are based of jobs from older FF games, and anyone pointing that out and applying how the job was in these games to ffxi will be ridiculed "Well that was that game, this isn't that game." Old discriptions of the jobs are ridiculed also, despite the fact that in almost 9 years, the advertising of the job has not changed - interesting, but that is biased view for you. Just because a job was forced into a role, does not mean that is the role it needs to be tailored for only. If that were true, rdm would have gotten far more mage tailored spells by now, but instead have been given changes to both melee and mage aspects with the only moans/groans coming from the people who think it needs to be one way or the other....for crying out loud, the job is a hybrid..stop asking for it to fit one aspect....

[Stylin]

As far as I'm concerned both the pro-mage onry and pro-melee onry people need to get off their soap boxes and need to seek a balanced common ground.

Hey, you stole my line!

[Shiyo]

Gotta agree on this one. I mean, What else does RDM have left in Abyssea? All I've ever done with it so far is make it a Phalanx II job for CW Burns, that's about it. And when it's down to that when your enfeebles outright resist on Higher-Tier NMs, You have to ask yourself.

Abyssea is not the game, abyssea is 2010, this is 2011. The only thing abyssea is for is duoing/dual boxing seal NM's and farming emps.

[Quetzacoatl]

Abyssea is not the game, abyssea is 2010, this is 2011. The only thing abyssea is for is duoing/dual boxing seal NM's and farming emps.

2011 up until now: We were still doing Abyssea because Voidwatch was trash to begin with, and had less-than-groundbreaking gear (except Rancor Collar and Deluxe Animator) with horrid droprates.

uhh...okay? As far as I know, Abyssea is still 80% of the game at the moment.

[Economizer]

Also, to correct Economizer, Chr only affects Dancing Edge, which rdm can't use as far as dagger WS go

Shadowstitch.

But yeah, I was also thinking of Dancing Edge (I knew it was on more then one WS though!), which Red Mage can't use.

It probably isn't the most useful thing in the world (I was trying to be more cheeky then right when I mentioned WS mods, as I usually am when referring to CHR in FFXI), but that's probably why the spell came out before some of the more useful stats. At least Gain-STR is cheaper then Boost-STR at the moment, I still haven't gotten the White Mage variant.