The debate-free Poll.

[Seriha]

I can't believe that I am letting myself be pulled into this quagmire.

No, stating that RDM should get no melee adjustments means just that, that the melee stays where it is. RDM melee is and always will be a toy. It is something that is done on trash mobs because if you are fighting a real mob you have other things that you should be doing.

I don't know how many of you guys remember this or were playing back then, but a while back there was a bug after an update that caused melee damage to no longer have a randomized factor. Meaning that you always hit for the same amount of damage, so it was very easy to test to see if your attack was capped against a monster's defense. During this bug I went to Beaucedine Glacier for some reason or another, and found out to my horror that my melee damage as a 75 RDM was not capped against the tigers and goblins there, mobs that were 30+ levels under me. That was the exact moment that I became disenchanted with RDM melee.

I know someone is going to retort with "your melee gear must have sucked", (I don't think that I wore any because I hadn't been expecting to melee) but the point is that our base attack is so low that it wasn't capped against level 30-40 mobs at 75. This is not something that is worthwhile. A RDM is never going to get a party invitation because of a melee buff, we need buffs for enfeebling and enhancing to be a useful job again.

Well, I don't know what kind of defense Beauc mobs would have, but I'd venture a guess you were floating around 300 ATK or less if you weren't using melee gear. If they have more than 150 DEF, I'm not surprised you saw what you saw. Forget exact numbers, but a WAR would probably have been hovering around 430 before Berserk, give or take some GA merits. By default, we know two-handers will have more ATK/ACC. Of course, I also could've broken 400 ATK on RDM in gear at 75, but wearing such gear basically meant no Haste, and swords are a different beast than great axes.

Now, let's take a gander at Enspells. How much ATK would you need to boost a hit by 27 points of damage? This should arguably be where RDM is picking up the slack on their damage, but the scaling needs to be a bit better with resist issues going away. The fact RDM is rather limited to mediocre physical WS with their mediocre ATK that Enspells don't help is one of those cumulative issues I hinted at where just wanting to play the role wasn't enough. It outright requires attention from SE to veer things away from solo status or telling people the only time they're allowed to enjoy a job is when fighting trash.

As is, we're one of the best suited jobs for magical WS, though the current magical WS aren't exactly known for their big numbers. Even with Sanguine Blade, breaking 1k isn't terribly impressive if others are doing 2.5k+ (I'm trying to look at this from an outside Abyssea perspective, mind you). I'd actually like a variable elemental WS between Vorpal and CDC (hopefully closer to CDC) that adopts an element and SC properties based on your active enspell. Suddenly the ATK deficiency isn't so bad and that gear you're probably carrying for nukes can double as a WS set.

This still won't put RDM on par with Ukon WARs, but as others have said, that's not really what we're seeking. We still know the debuffs, buffs, nukes, and cures exist and that MP is finite in regards to GG's strawman scenario. You'll want to be giving the RDM Marches and such if they're swinging, and obviously won't have Idle/Refresh gear on if engaged. So it's just Refresh II and Convert sustaining doling out debuffs, the occasional cure, and maybe an MB or two.

Rather bluntly, hybrid jobs pre-BLU lacked the tools to be hybrids (still do, really), and the only reason BLU does as well as it does is because they got their own special system that discouraged staff swapping, gave them access to various traits regardless of sub, were certainly geared better, and got some nifty things where, mix-and-match, "specialists" would like to have in their toolbox. I'd love a Dream Flower equivalent on RDM or Charged Whisker on BLM.

Either way, this isn't so much me trying to "drag you in" as you put it, but more in that solutions aren't as impossible as some might want us to believe while still leaving room for more mage-y things that, by default, already have their own perks like safety at range, the ability to regenerate more MP more quickly, and potency advantages. And even if melee integration was somehow tied to new, potent enfeebles (or even enhancing current ones), would you not agree that higher risk should yield higher reward? Such is a glimpse at the utility angle beyond the damage aspect.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Not stepping in to debate, just saying, in my current ws gear, my redmage at 90 outside abyssea has:

RDM/NIN (Sword)
STR: 83+53 (8 str merits)
DEX: 79+15
VIT: 75+10
AGI: 76+2
INT: 80+5
MND: 76+5
CHR: 74+5
HP: 1239
MP: 741(12 mp merits)
ACC: +22
ATT: ~540
DEF: 285
DA: 8%

(numbers adjusted because of substituting minuet for brutal ear)
Dunno how that is compared to another light DD like dnc or nin or thf, but at the time when i wrote that info down, my dark knight was less than 80 more attack over that (more now due to recent gear upgrades such as +2 gear)

[saevel]

Well in the past it was our acc that had issues not our attack. Other jobs had sufficient acc that they could go the haste + meat route, where as we were stuck with haste + sushi. Then SE invented this awesome thing called Pizza / Pizza +1. Gives us acc and attack, usually enough acc to cap hit rate and then some along with some attack with it. Still not as good as the meat eaters but makes it more then worth while.

At 75 I was TPing in around 350~380 attack, BLU was right at 398/400, and WAR with swords (just for comparison) was around 420~435 depending on gear. Things like hauby and kitty pants were really amazing at 75. Now at 90~95 things are a bit different. Once I get done leveling BLM (in pt now) I'll post actual numbers on my RDM.

CS now tack on +20 STR from Gain-STR (and I'm elvann btw). And next level 25 from Gain-DEX / STR / INT / MND.

[cidbahamut]

SCH can hit the same Slow 1 cap and aoe it, aoe sleep and the rest.

Wut tenletters

[Greatguardian]

So many people in this thread either just do not understand Scholar, or do not understand that having Black Magic and White Magic together does not an equivalent class make.

Protip: The biggest difference between Rdm and Sch is not a Sword. Nor, before it's brought up again, is it Slow2, Dia 3, or any spell in our library.

[saevel]

ok TP gear,
95 RDM/NIN
HP: 1416
MP: 711 (12/12MP)

STR 96+35 (8/8 merits)
DEX 81+15
VIT 83
AGI 75+10
INT 78+5
MND 85+5
CHR 78+5
Total Attack: 527
Total Accuracy: 445
Sword: 391 (8/8 Merits + 5 from ear)
DW: 30%
Haste: 24%
DA: +10 then +13 (Temper) for +23 total
TA: +2
Store TP: +11-3
Subtle Blow: +5
Magic Accuracy: +8 from Chakram
Crit Hit Rate: +5% (Neck)
Damage Taken: +10% (Neck)

Acc: +19 -8 +15 (Composure)
Atk: +63
Some evasion down from head and movement speed down from hands and some +enmity from belt.

+27 Enspells, +20 Gain-STR +12.5~13 Temper and Composure as self buffs.
Food of choice is either Pizza+1 for VT or higher, or Bison Steak for T or lower mobs.

WS set (CDC)
Attack: 555

STR: 96+35
DEX: 81+45
Lots more acc due to changing into Tumbler trunks andK.hachimaki head (Sword+5 acc+12). After Maat's Cap for WS piece.

*Note*
I carry tools for the NI spells for -earth resist, -thunder resist and -ice resist. Just incase I need the extra m.acc for those respective spells, its -30 resist (+30 acc) and ultra fast casting.

[Septimus]

@Sept,

Go troll else where. There is no such thing as "base attack" for a job, its skill + STR/2 + JT + gear. Meaning if a WAR wears mage gear and use's H2H or a staff then their gonna have "crap base attack".

RDM is B in swords, BLU is A-, skills have all gone up at the same rate post 75. 269-250 = 19, WAR is ~exactly~ the same skill as us. BLU has less base STR, it's spells put them at right about our level if not 1~6 points higher. WAR is about 5 points higher depending on level (@95 the stat gap is getting smaller). At 75 my RDM was sitting on the same attack as a BLU. Since then BLU's have gotten better TP gear and RDM hasn't got much better so they've pulled ahead but not by much.

It's WAR's JT's that give it insane attack growth, Berserk is just that good.

And one final note on that subject.
Gain-STR is giving me +20 STR (+10 attack), and Temper seems to be 12~13% DA at the same enhancing magic. So yeah our melee capabilities aren't exactly meager.

Just because someone disagrees with you, it does not mean that he/she is trolling, it may mean that he/she just disagrees with you.

I could go into a whole debate about base attack (what I mean is the number based off of your skill and STR without any equipment), but the point is that it takes more than just attack to make a damage dealer. Yes, BLU and RDM can have similar attack, but attack doesn't modify the BLU's main source of damage: spells. A WAR has exactly the same sword skill as a RDM, but the WAR is still going to wipe the floor with a RDM's melee, not to mention that the WAR's Great Axe skill is significantly higher, on top of all of the melee traits and job abilities that WAR has. RDM melee is simply a toy, it is never going to be a serious part of the job, and it is not going to make the job useful in end-game situations. RDM desperately needs improvements in enfeebling and enhancing to be wanted for any fight that matters. Maybe once that is addressed then we could get something for melee, but it must always be remembered that RDM melee is, was, and will forever be just a toy compared to heavy DD jobs.

[Seriha]

So, what kind of current situation(s) are we looking at that demands a SCH flip-flop between Arts schizophrenically and in turn be a lesser choice than RDM?

[saevel]

So, what kind of current situation(s) are we looking at that demands a SCH flip-flop between Arts schizophrenically and in turn be a lesser choice than RDM?

None, already been over this with others. Most SCH's will just cast in the wrong arts and eat the penalty if they only need to cats one spell from the opposing type. A SCH in a "support" role would just stay in LA+AW as /RDM and go about their business. With more strategems and now a duration strategem they can aoe Enspells / Phalanx / Stoneskin to their hearts content. Debuff the mob with Slow / Para (if its not resistant) and Dia II. Throw out a Dispel / Sleep if its needed, but honestly the BLM's and BRDs will be handling most sleeps. Cure IV spam and even aoe Cure IV spam if needed.

Really it's everything RDM/SCH can do and more. Only thing it's missing is Refresh II and Dia III. If their needed for haste cause a WHM's not covering it they could just go /WHM and skip the AW strategem requirement. Their native sublimation makes refresh a non-issue so the spell is really just for others if they need it.

I REALLY tried to find situations where you couldn't just replace the RDM with a SCH or a WHM and could only find one. Saboteur + Dia III right before a boss zerg. But with Embrava you want a SCH anyway and between the two, Embrava beats out Sab Dia III. Best choice would be to use BRD x 2, SCH, RDM and SMN together for zergs.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Keep whm in pt > have rdm sabo dia 3 > drop rdm > never have sch in pt because they can embrava outside pt.