The debate-free Poll.

[saevel]

Link for proof? BG sources would suggest otherwise. There's an ability from your best debuffing sub (Stun says hi), called elemental seal, which should help you land it for 6 out of 10 minutes (and with 2 rdms, keep it up fulltime). If you don't need elemental seal, then you can keep it up solo with one rdm.

Whether NM's melee hits are the issue or not is irrelvant. You posted that a SCH's Slow was equal or better than a Rdm's, which is just completely not true. (Also, Manifestation doesn't work with Slow, meaning you can't AoE it. Just fyi.)

Umm it was BG that verified that it was 50% on ITGs. And later only 25% on certain super NMs (Rani says hi). The 25% is most likely because the NM has a flag 50% reduction.

[saevel]

(This is all outside abyssea stuff)

SCH v RDM is a dumb arguement....

Mainly b/cause RDM is RDM and u use it for enfeebling or refesh II which defintly puts it in a surrport role.

Where SCH is different

SCH either Nukes or Heals or surrport alliance heal.

Nuking it has 2 niches

1. Low Mp nuking
basically being able to cast spell for 33% of there cost every 48 secs at the same time recovering around 10 mp a tick means that over time SCH should out nuke any job.

2. Low hate DMG
Honestly while you don't see it much helixs can put out 2-3k worth of DMG for say 300-400 DMG worth if hate

Outside this SCH nukes are pretty strong to the point it's single target stuff is stronger than BLMs nukes the only issue is it's all stratagem dependent and BL/SCHM will get hailstorm at 99 anyway which will close the gap.

Then as a healer/ally healer

Ok WHMs are the best healers but in a ally to have 1 healer being a SCH is a great thing since it doesn't need surrport (10-12 mp a tick from sublimation/gear) Stratagems that allow it to aoe heal any party or boost the potency of cure IV either way as a healer SCH is really good at being an ally healer.

Sorry but RDM really doesn't take anything from SCH or SCH from RDM were as SCH v BLM or SCH v WHM is a valid argument

SCH/RDM has

Slow
Paralyze
Bind
Gravity
Dispel
Dia II
Sleep I / II without DA/AW
Refresh 1
Regen III
And next update Haste
Enspell
Phalanx
Stoneskin (they have this naively now)
Blink
Barspells, if you really want to count them.
Cure IV
All status cures
Reraise III
Tier IV nukes
Then all their Weather spells
All their Helix Spells
And now the single best buff in the game, Embrava.
And the single best DoT in the game, Klaustrum.
JA's that AOE the above spells
JA's that reduce cost of above spells
JA's that reduce casting / recasting time of above spells
JA's that enhance potency of Cure / Nukes
JA's that enhance duration of buffs
Granted the above two require 2HR usage and are used sparingly.

Umm that leaves RDM with,

Slow II (5% above normal)
Paralyze II (no consistent data existing, years after it's release)
Dia III (godly)
Refresh II (godly, but BRD's is better)
JA that increase potency / duration of next enfeeble, half effective on ITG.
JA that increase's our melee and self buff capacity
JA that replentish's our MP supply

And now a JA that makes next spell instant cast / recast, or next party members spell instant cast / recast. Timer is 10min, seriously needs lower timer.

Hmm, I think SCH made out like a bandit here. I've already explained how Slow is actually crap at higher potency, its effectiveness diminishes rapidly past 25%. Paralyze is completely random and most of the current end game NM's are 100% flat resistant to it. Same with Break. Addle is weak, and further weakened on NM's due to flat potency reduction.

So for party support SCH crush's a RDM almost as badly as a WHM does. Their almost our equal in enfeebles, with Dia III being the only one that sets us apart. And "enfeebles" as a category suck, seriously no alliance / LS leader brings a RDM along for "enfeebles". We are there to give the WHM a 7mp/tick refresh that stacks with the BRD's 9mp/tick ballads. We're occasionally asked to stun, depending on the monster.

Elemental Seal .. seriously ..... wow.

At no time in the past 20 levels has magic accuracy on enfeebles ever been an issue. It's so LOL that the BLM's laugh at it and have asked that ES be changed into a nuke enhancing JA. It's only use has been to land Sleep on extremely resistant NM's / or Sleepga for groups in certain BC / KSNM style fights. Other then that your landing one guaranteed nuke per 10min, and a MUCH better sub for that would be /SCH.

[Neisan_Quetz]

So Sch's best buff is once every 2 hours, and doesn't even require them to be in the pt, so they're like Smn, but worse since Smn actually needs an invite.

[saevel]

So Sch's best buff is once every 2 hours, and doesn't even require them to be in the pt, so they're like Smn, but worse since Smn actually needs an invite.

Yep it's that good.

Of course you do realize they get all the same buffs we do and can aoe them. And here's another kicker, their duration JA is normally 2.0x duration, but with a SINGLE piece of their +2 its 2.5 duration. So they can aoe buffs for 2.5x duration, better then our single target 1.8~1.9x duration. Their a RDM+2 in the buffing category.

Seriously, if they were so busy trying to be BLM-1's then they'd realize they were one of the best buffers in the game. Actually I honestly thing it's on purpose, they don't want what happened to RDM to happen to them.

Same as BLU's and suppor / healer role. A BLU/SCH (or /WHM) is a superior healer then a RDM. Their seconded only by WHM's in this duty due to how their cures scale. M.Fruit and P.embrace have separate timers and follow the regular cure formula, except their base potency is higher then Cure IV. Thus whatever we can get out of Cure IV they can get higher out of both of theirs. They also have erasega in the form of Winds of Promyvion, 36mp 20s recast. They also have a super cheap aoe cure Healing Breeze and the ridiculous White Wind. From /WHM they can get Haste, single target erase and all the -na's. They have a 250~280 point aoe stoneskin that doesn't require JA's to use, /SCH gives them better healing power all the -na's but lacks haste. Problem is the BLU's are too busy trying to be DD's to notice their one of the games best healers. Or really none of them want to heal and actively avoid it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

And until they can do that to haste (SE already blocked that) or get higher than Cure 4 no one will really care outside of using them for zerg/Kaustra.

I don't think anyone for a second believes that crap about turning allies into demigods in the first place, or SE has a very loose translation of demigod.

[saevel]

And until they can do that to haste (SE already blocked that) or get higher than Cure 4 no one will really care outside of using them for zerg/Kaustra.

I don't think anyone for a second believes that crap about turning allies into demigods in the first place, or SE has a very loose translation of demigod.

SE never said anything about us turning allies into demi-gods, it was turning ourselves into demi-gods but badly translated. We've gone over this.

And .. you realize the WHM casts haste right? Or the BRD/WHM, or anyone /WHM (SMN/WHM comes to mind). Heck you can cast haste across the alliance or out of party. This isn't 6-man merit party anymore, stop thinking that way. The haste spell isn't something restricted to two ~ three jobs (SMN) anymore, its now available to EVERYONE. So take that right off your list of reasons to bring a RDM.

Plus a SCH/WHM can make haste last 450 seconds, that's 7:30 seconds. We can't even hope to reach that duration (like it actually matters).

[Neisan_Quetz]

I never said it was a reason to bring a Rdm, but Embrava being outside pt castable doesn't mean I'm going to be adding Sch to pts anytime soon either.

And no it doesn't matter since you're having them blow all their strats on hastes or Accession buffs... really.

[saevel]

I never said it was a reason to bring a Rdm, but Embrava being outside pt castable doesn't mean I'm going to be adding it to pts anytime soon either.

Its not for you or any of the low man groups. It's godly for a big alliance zerg, and you can't drop people from a VWNM fight, nor from a WoE group. So your gonna drop the SCH ........ for ...... AV? Really missing where a 18 man group would need to drop someone now adays. Like I said, stop thinking 6-man killing birds as being the definition of a job.

And anyway, why bring a RDM over a SCH? Other then Dia III and 4mp/tick (difference from NQ refresh and HQ refresh II), there is absolutely zero RDM brings to the table as "mage". They can bring a significant amount of damage, but we're talking in your "RDM is a mage" universe.

[Neisan_Quetz]

And that's exactly why I'm for SE improving Rdm's mage aspect, and not more toys like Temper.

[saevel]

And that's exactly why I'm for SE improving Rdm's mage aspect, and not more toys like Temper.

Ahh see your biased, you consider anything "melee" to be a "toy", even when its +13% DA. SE could release en-death in a spell, and you'd still call it a "toy". And this is also where our views diverge, I'm for SE enhancing all aspects of RDM, not a single one. I want more melee stuff, but I also want much more magic stuff.

I'd like SE to create spells that are like temper (in that only one can be up) but are
+Magic Attack Bonus
and another one for
+Magic Accuracy
And potentially another for +Cure Pot, but that's reaching a bit.

Also would prefer the following enfeebles and have NM's not immune to them. Also use enfeebling skill, not the BLM version that scale poorly and don't stack worth a damn.

Attack-Down
Defense-Down
Magic-Attack Down
Magic-Defense Down
Evasion-Down
Accuracy-Down
Magic-Evasion-Down
Magic-Accuracy-Down
Crit-Rate-Down

And then base STAT enfeebles
Reduce-STR
Reduce-VIT
Reduce-DEX
Reduce-AGI
Reduce-MND
Reduce-INT
Reduce-CHR

Would like for SE to give us the rest of the Regen line already, and a special RDM only super HoT, similar to what Embrava does (Embrava is based on Enh Magic BTW) only we don't need a 2hr for it. And I mean only the regen power, they can keep the rest as it's their 2hr.

And while I'd prefer RDM not to get Cure V, with VI being the way it currently is, I wouldn't mind if they gave WHM something even better. Possibly a JT that WHM's cures can randomly remove status ailments, and give WHM Erase II with the ability to remove multiple status ailments on each cast.

Healing outside Abyssea isn't about brute force Cure power anymore. Your tanks get afflicted with crazy status ailments, and lots of them. They need removed ASAP, so you end up with the WHM, the BRD/WHM and myself (RDM/SCH) spamming erase / paralyna / silena on both our PLD tanks right after a NM does a crazy move.