The debate-free Poll.

[saevel]

It all starts to blur after a while. Either way, you don't see us running to Alla or other portions of this board demanding people come shut the mage only retards up or to mass report people who dare have a differing opinion. It's hard to take people who claim to love a job seriously when they'd gleefully gut an aspect of it (See your agreement to nerfing Composure...) if only because it wasn't good enough to begin with. No, if you loved a job, you'd want more people playing it, eking out every last ounce of potential it had. The commentary accompanying some of the negative replies here reeks more of a grudge than genuine concern for RDM.

Actual real RDM's would want buffs to all aspects of the job, which includes melee buffs. A RDM without melee is a WHM-2 or a SCH-1 depending on who you ask. Heck with SCH getting Embrava their the ones making "demi-gods" out of their party members. Have you guys seen what Embrava does?

50hp/tick 5tp/tick +25% Haste, lasts 12~15 min, can be aoe'd on anyone you can cast haste on. That's right, a single SCH can supercharge six parties, we did up to 4 parties inside WoE last night. That single spell just altered how we do zerg style NM fights, now we're stacking Embrava with our SV BRD rotations and PD rotations.

SCH is now officially better party support then RDM and BRD is the better enfeebler. The BRD version of addle is more potent then ours, similar to how their elegy is more portent the our slow, thankfully they all stack. So now RDM is second if not third enfeebler, considering SCH can aoe their enfeebles. Melee ability and Refresh II is the only thing making RDM different from a gimp WHM, BLM or SCH. That and Dia III, which is made of total awesomesauce.

Nice lecture about "right to have vote counted", you never recorded my name near the melee or "both" list, since their essentially the exact same.

And yeah Seriha, it's why I can't stand BG, good wiki absolutely horrible community. They honestly think they represent the entire game population and fully expected the servers to shut down after lots of them were banned.

[noodles355]

and please refrain from further posts of why you feel said way, this poll will not reflect why, just what.

I will post where I damn well please. Had you not made this comment I probably would have had no need to post again. But because you made such a comment, I feel obliged to post to tell you you shouldn't make comments such as these. Don't think for a minute you have any right in telling who can or can not post where.

Oh, and do you know the real reason people are saying "no" and ignoring the "you're getting mage upgrades anyway" portion of the OP? Because we are afraid that someone will read the poll, ignore that part and assume rdms want a buff to melee more than, or instead of, a buff to mage. It is irrelevant that that is not what the poll says. It's not wwhat the poll says, it's what the poll will be mis-interpreted as. That is why I voted "no", and that's why most other people do too.

Funilly enough, it's not to spite Rdm Melee people. It's for fear of misinterpretation as "rdm want melee updates more than, or instead of mage ones".
I can bet you every Rdm who posted "no" will be of the mind set of "I wont complain if we get it as long as we get our wanted mage upgrades first, or as well as.

Would I be happy if Rdm got access to better WS gear, and all sword WSs including Sanguine Blade and Vorpal Blade? Yes I would. Would I be happy if Rdm got native Fencer? Yes I would. Would I be happy if rdm got those, but did not recieve any much-needed buffs to it's mage side? Hell no.

Once again, it's not what the poll states. It's what it will be interpreted as. It would be easy, even with professional translators, for a Dev member to misinterpret "Rdms want melee buffs as well as mage buffs" as "Rdm want melee buffs. [End]", and not the much more accurate "Rdm want mage buffs more than melee. But they would be happy to recieve both".

[Crimson_Slasher]

I just went back and read all your posts in this thread Saevel and you never stated clearly where you would like to be put in the poll, simply clarify and i will place you where you would like to go.

[Buffy]

Melee RDM should die in a fire.

[cidbahamut]

Actual real RDM's would want buffs to all aspects of the job, which includes melee buffs.

No true Scotsman etc, etc.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If I could have it all then yes I'd want everything, but I realistically don't see that happening. You got your toy buff, fine, now let's see SE get to work on making the job relevant in a party setting (and more than once every 2 hours in Sch's case, and outside of niche fights in Smn's case).

EDIT: Of course, I'm not saying neither of those jobs shouldn't continue to receive buffs.

[HimuraKenshyn]

mage improvements!!!!

[Soranika]

I've never put time into RDM but if RDM wield a sword and are suppose to be frontline mages, shouldn't they have some competent place there?

I do admittedly have a poor understanding of RDM's role, but wouldn't significant buffs to En- spells to make them useful against mobs with elemental weaknesses?

[Seriha]

If elemental weaknesses meant more, possibly, but Enspells haven't aged well and T2s carry their own issues. In a nutshell, the RDM melee "issue" is a number of smaller issues which could easily be fixed that collectively add up to hurt its physical potential. The social stigma that follows is its own can of worms, some inspired by the game mechanics, others with people just being internet jerkwads.

[Hyrist]

Which is why I protested the poll.

First off, it's the WRONG kind of Poll. Melee adjustments for RDM are going to happen, REGARDLESS. RDM is going to benefit from the WS adjustments and the skill adjustments and all these global changes that are going to effect RDM with every other job.

So the logic is, if they're going to do it, they might as well do it right by RDM as well, so that the Front Line aspects are viable in a larger variety of areas and situations.

This isn't a matter of 'Choose one or the other." as the poll would indicate. And it's hilarious the amount of hate people have towards it. Which honestly I think it's more along the line of 'oh, me too, I want to be one of cool folks' then any real justification in the basis of fact.

Anything negative stated about RDM's frontline capability, could be addressed, aside from the comparative "RDM doesn't/shouldn't do as much damage as {Insert Dedicated DD here.} in which among any of the logical Melee supporters, you'd never find an argument with.

However, every other argument is hogwash. Stating that RDM should receive NO melee adjustments is stating you want Red Mage's Sword and Dagger skill removed, Enspells Removed or be party cast only. Have their entire Relic/Mythic/Emperian access to be removed, because that's effectively what you're trying to do: Remove RDM's martial aspects from any kind of consiteration, ever.

To which I retort flatly: GO. PLAY. SCHOLAR.

I am completly in support of Mage Improvements for RDM, and for situations in the game to be a no-zone for Meleeing. But those situations should be HNM endgame specifically and that's it. Every other thing from Soloing to Abyssea parties to even Walk of Echoes/Dynamis, Einherjar /Nyzul Isle, etc should all be fair game. And if Red Mages performance in melee isn't up to part for those, then it should be improved.

My stance on the Mage side is for RDM to be the uncontested champion of Enfeebles. To have a Wide Array of potent enfeebles (including more spells not available to other classes, and spells that can react to or be preventative of TP moves) and more means to empower these debuffs, or make them effective on a wider variety of HNM content.

All other roles for RDM in that instance should be secondary. This includes Buffing, Nuking, and Healing.

If there is to be improvements in our buffing line, it needs to be a means that can bypass our self-cast only system, but balanced in a means that it requires us to prioritize particular members of the party rather than reverting to a mindless cycle-mage.

As far as being a more 'Viable healer'. RDM's healing capacity should be on the same level as our nuking capacity, in my opinion. And I don't mean comparably to 'tiers'. I mean in raw performance. In which case I support more potent HoT spells rather than raw Curing power through Cure V.

But bar none, RDM's Enfeebeling should be top priority. Followed by the equivilant peformances on Buffing, Healing, Nuking, and Melee.

The outright neglect of any one of these, however, removes the purpose of this job's existence as a malleable class, and turns it into a ghetto version of classes already in existence.