[dev1024] Job adjustments - RDM

[Kitkat]

Enmity is technically less of a problem due to Tranquil Heart + I know Rdm can now cap cure potency and have ~-50 enmity in gear as well.

The point isn't that rdm has lower enmity, blu/rdm gets the same options and can get just as much -enmity in gear. The point was, that either way the job will gain more enmity from cure bombing unless someone is shedding hate of them (such as a thf using accomplice/collaborator) than that of a whm dropping V/VI which has less enmity than Cure, Plenilune, or White Wind. Just because the job can fit the role, doesn't mean it was ment to was the point I was trying to make.

It wouldn't be terribly hard, given some of the career Red Mages I've known in-game. So please, don't use this line of reasoning.

Scuro is trying to state rdm is a cookie cutter job that must conform or the person playing it is gimp/wrong. The problem being that rdm has no specific role/necessity because the role they fill changes based on the subjob used and the situation. Just like blu is able to adapt to various situations, so is rdm capable of doing so. Rdm/blm is good for crowd control, Rdm/whm is a good back up healer much like Rdm/sch is also but goes further by having the option to turn buffs into AOE form. Blu/whm, blu/rdm, and blu/sch can all fit the backup healer/buffer role also, they also have spells for crowd control and nuking with gear to back up this role (heck my blu gets +37mab from gear easily with ability to go up to 45 not to mention access to +mnd/int/mp/hmp gear). Blue magic skill and enfeebling is both A+ to Blu or Rdm respectively with access to macc/skill gear to further increase duration/land rate of enfeeble based magics both have access to. By 99, any /rdm or /whm will have access to haste meaning the few spells rdm has the option to cast on others for buff purpose is null/void as an argumentative point that rdm is "king of enhancing" which Scuro loves to toss around at times.

With this on the table it becomes almost condescending to state that a job with the ability to melee should never do so regardless of gear or situation unless solo. Between the gear, spell buffs, subjob options, and situations we see in today's "endgame" scene or daily activity....there honestly isn't a whole lot keeping rdm as a end-all-be-all back line job anymore. This means the view of how jobs react to given situations can and should vary depending on the players ability to perform the different roles. Just like my rdm has several different sets of gear so too does my blu, because I never know when I may need to take a back seat and fill the back-up role of a nuker or healer. The end point is to at least be prepared for it. FFXI isn't Stick-in-the-mud 2005 anymore, it's 2011 and rdm has a good deal of props and tricks up their sleeves to be more than what they have been since the old days of "do it this way or gtfo." The key is the situation you're in.

[Swords]

Doesn't take away from the posts multiple points though.

That and like I pointed out in an older post, jobs are only complex as you make them out to be. Any RDM who has pride in their efforts know damn well it can be the hardest job to maintain at an efficient level because of it's capacity to do so much. RDM however does needs time to cast their very extensive list of spells to become efficient and worthwhile which works well in long fights, BLU's strength lies in zerg tactics (magic or melee) dealing out massive damage as quickly as possible. Conversely, BLU's lack mp efficiency and tends to run out quickly (and die quickly from hate spikes) making it difficult in long fights, RDM on the other hand have slow nukes with spike damage a good league behind dedicated nukers and with monsters dieing within 30 seconds more than half our spells become pointless to cast which reduces our optimalness significantly in zerg situations.

If anything RDM need's some form of significant "spike" damage/cure for this constant zerg fest that's overtaken the game. SE has pretty much said no for Cure V and most would probably believe Teir V nukes are out of the question, that pretty much limits much of our potential spike growth in the melee section, pending we don't get some ridiculously high amounts of MAB in the near future.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The point isn't that rdm has lower enmity, blu/rdm gets the same options and can get just as much -enmity in gear. The point was, that either way the job will gain more enmity from cure bombing unless someone is shedding hate of them (such as a thf using accomplice/collaborator) than that of a whm dropping V/VI which has less enmity than Cure, Plenilune, or White Wind. Just because the job can fit the role, doesn't mean it was ment to was the point I was trying to make.

Not sure what you're trying to say here then, since that applies to several jobs in FF.

Blu nukes are typically cheaper but they don't benefit from affinity staves, and bar regurgitation and few others many have long recasts/prohibitive casting distances.

Rdm never had a lot of spells to cast on others to begin with... I don't see how sub jobs getting haste changes this.

Mostly agree with the final paragraph but honestly, I found this entire update, fairly lackluster. Hopefully SE will fix their issues with adjustments they intended to implement and set up a timetable for when we ca nexpect them.

[Kitkat]

Not sure what you're trying to say here then, since that applies to several jobs in FF.

Once again you seemed to have only looked at the over all enmity downfall of what was said. The goal was to show that because the job can fit a back-up role of healer, it doesn't mean that is the primary function of the job and should not be a point to satisfy a "primary role/position" of a job. I placed the application of blu being able to fill this role to show to someone who has never played rdm (scuro) that the same pitfalls a blu run into with this, a rdm runs into. Neither is made to be Cure-bombers, but both can fill a backup healer role if the situation calls for it. Situational role positioning of the job, not primary focal point of the job.

Blu nukes are typically cheaper but they don't benefit from affinity staves, and bar regurgitation and few others many have long recasts/prohibitive casting distances.

While this is true in some aspects it is also false in others. While blu does not have affinity staves via ToM, they still have HQ staves to fall back on as well as various other spells to enhance damage via buffs. The point this was to show that the option to use Nukes is there for blu just like rdm, to show Scuro that jobs have the ability to be flexible which he tends to overlook.

Rdm never had a lot of spells to cast on others to begin with... I don't see how sub jobs getting haste changes this.

This was said mainly to point out the false assumption that Rdm is a pt enhancer class. It never was a pt enhancer class and using the crutches of Haste/refresh to say it is one has been one of Scuro's tactics/arguments. Thus showing how multiple classes using either sub at 99 having access to a 'cycle-spell' would fit this assumed role just as easily.

I'm attempting to squash his biased logic with situational proxy logic to show that each position he states a rdm should fill, is not necessarily the position it is meant to fill because the job was not built to fit any of these roles without appropriate subs to accommodate the role. Even then, the subjob only slightly enhances this role because the jobs made to fill it in a primary sense will always do it better...because they were built to do so. Rdm was built into a Jack-of-trades job; flexible to fill various back up roles, but master to no role specifically. The way rdm was built is a combination of Whm, Blm, and Melee, so why shouldn't it be able to fit a back-up DD role if the situation allows for it?

[Crimson_Slasher]

Gear dictates what jobs do?! Oh that explains this.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/231396

Makes perfect sense now. I see just how things work, thanks for enlightening me Scuro.

[cidbahamut]

Needs more Rune Chopper Scholars.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Once again you seemed to have only looked at the over all enmity downfall of what was said. The goal was to show that because the job can fit a back-up role of healer, it doesn't mean that is the primary function of the job and should not be a point to satisfy a "primary role/position" of a job. I placed the application of blu being able to fill this role to show to someone who has never played rdm (scuro) that the same pitfalls a blu run into with this, a rdm runs into. Neither is made to be Cure-bombers, but both can fill a backup healer role if the situation calls for it. Situational role positioning of the job, not primary focal point of the job.



While this is true in some aspects it is also false in others. While blu does not have affinity staves via ToM, they still have HQ staves to fall back on as well as various other spells to enhance damage via buffs. The point this was to show that the option to use Nukes is there for blu just like rdm, to show Scuro that jobs have the ability to be flexible which he tends to overlook.



This was said mainly to point out the false assumption that Rdm is a pt enhancer class. It never was a pt enhancer class and using the crutches of Haste/refresh to say it is one has been one of Scuro's tactics/arguments. Thus showing how multiple classes using either sub at 99 having access to a 'cycle-spell' would fit this assumed role just as easily.

I'm attempting to squash his biased logic with situational proxy logic to show that each position he states a rdm should fill, is not necessarily the position it is meant to fill because the job was not built to fit any of these roles without appropriate subs to accommodate the role. Even then, the subjob only slightly enhances this role because the jobs made to fill it in a primary sense will always do it better...because they were built to do so. Rdm was built into a Jack-of-trades job; flexible to fill various back up roles, but master to no role specifically. The way rdm was built is a combination of Whm, Blm, and Melee, so why shouldn't it be able to fit a back-up DD role if the situation allows for it?

Just arguing details at this point then, I have no real issue with this outlook. My major gripe at this point is SE hasn't delivering on promised adjustments and the only notable thing given ignoring gear upgrades was... Temper, which I doubt anyone would have a problem if it it wasn't the only notable thing this update short of spells we knew we would be getting due to tier progression, or should have gotten several levels ago.

[Hyrist]

I don't think we should ignore gear upgrades though, as RDM is such a gear dependent job that when it does give something that raises the bar on what we got, it literally is an update-level improvement.

Not to mention, Spontaneity should be given a honoerable mention even if the timer is a long one. The ability to bistow an instance of Quick Cast on anyone could potentially be pretty powerful. Especially if it were used to say, help a struggling tank get up shadows instantly, and still have the recast to do it again right after. Or giving that BLM the ability to cast Comet two times in quick succession. Or, say sometime in the middle of a wipe the WHM who's next on the hate list said "Oh crap, reraise fell."

I hate the timer on it, we're likely going to see a merit category for it too, which is annoying. But Temper isn't the grand sum of what RDM got this update. Gain STR, gear, and Spontaneity were received too.

As far as the Manifesto... More and more I'm thinking that was a mistranslation as far as the buffing aspects of the job.

Though please, more debuffs next patch, something that ONLY RDM can have.

[Neisan_Quetz]

"Could potentially" and "is in practice" aren't the same thing however. Even without 10 minute timer restriction (pretty terrible imo) giving it to others can easily be wasted unless you can predict exactly what the person is going to cast with it, at the moment you give it to them. Sure, I have a good idea of what they should do with it, but I can never confidently say that is what they are going to do after getting it, especially if they already have something else in mind.

[Hyrist]

I take it you don't maintain communication with your allies then?

That explains a lot, actually.

I'm on Skype with my allies most the time, so it's simple to say things like. "Convert Coming up." or "Skillchain up." In short order and pull things off easily. It'd be nothing to say. "Spare me a Quick Cast for a double-comet?" And have it done. Or to plan other uses for it.

It's also how I coordinate healing loads with my Dancer, where we determine what damage requires her to only use a Waltz III to pair off with my Cure IV, or when She can Spare the time on a Waltz V. Or how gradual damage can be easily countered off with AoE Stoneskin/Regen, where heavier ones can add on Drain Samba.

Having access to quick communication really does bypass most of those concerns.