[dev1024] Job adjustments - RDM

[saevel]

What do you class Temper and Enspells if not to increase melee? What about Composure with increased Enhancement duration and 15 Accuracy?

Are they a DD? Hell no! But you're completely wrong if you think SE don't want RDM to melee in some instances with the gear coming out, the weapons and the Weapon Skill adjustments they clearly do.

You're fear of RDM beating BLU is misplaced.

The intention of a RDM meleeing was stated at level 16 with the spell "Enthunder". A self cast only spell that deals thunder elemental damage upon each melee strike. SE wasn't thinking of SCH or SMN or anyone else when they designed Enthunder.

Now for "melee" we have,

Enspells
Gain-spells (both melee and mage buffs)
Temper

SE has pretty much made it clear their intentions, the fact that people continue to put on blinders is a testiment to the authenticity of the Cognitive Dissonance theory.

[Kitkat]

What a wonderful troll you are Scuro. You have the tenacity to take anything that has any basis and turn it around using blind logic. It is almost believable.....aside from the fact you are basically just proving a point I made several post ago about how a job fits into various roles depending on situation and subjob. Thank you for walking into the corner as expected by stating the very points that have already been said to you about the job. I knew all I had to do was post about something that is so plainly obvious just to get you to realize how screwed up your own logic is since all you can do is apply it to blu, but not to a job you don't even play because you can only see what you want to about a job you don't even play.

Well, now that you've pretty much contradicted yourself...again, the debate with you is over. Your own arrogance is your downfall when it comes to anything in comparison to blu, yet you can't look at the very same reasons blu would change its spell set, subjob, or gear for to fit another role and apply it to rdm. Then again your rdm is 47, so what real experience with the job can you put behind it? Since all you can do is cry and complain about blu, why don't you stay in the blu forums where you contradict yourself just as much. Yes, you do contradict yourself ~pats your head~ It's ok, arrogance does that.

Edit: By the way, I pulled up the information posted by Camate in the Blu forums stating it was not all encompassing of Double attack trait, just the Blu spell combination that creates the trait as stated here. The misconception of blu DA trait being 10% came from the assumption it was equal to war double attack which has been proven to be 10%.

• Double Attack

Changing the double attack from 10% and upgrading to 5% triple attack is silly.
Is the double attack effect now lowered to 5% due to a bug?

It pains me to tell you this, as I don’t want to be the destroyer of dreams or anything like that, but the double attack trait gained by combination of blue spells isn’t 10% like everyone thinks…it’s actually closer to 7%. (We didn’t change anything FYI)

Edit2:
To further prove that you don't know how to interpret information here is a kparse of rdm/war with no other double attack gear on to show that war DA trait is infact 10%. So yes, only blu da is 7% not all da traits. Also, temper was not, nor could not, be used during this test as my Rdm was 91 during this test.

Melee Data

Player # Melee Attacks # Melee Rounds Attacks/Round # Extra Attacks
Kaliyah 1216 1106 1 110

Player # +1 Rounds # +2 Rounds # +3 Rounds # +4 Rounds # >+4 Rounds
Kaliyah 110 0 0 0 0

Player # MultiAttack Rounds MultiAttack % Kills w/Min Attacks Kills w/<Min Attacks
Kaliyah 110 9.95 % 0 0


Treat As:

Multi-attacks per attack (2x/3x):

Player # Double Attacks DA Rate Perc. DA # Triple Attacks TA Rate Perc. TA
Kaliyah 110 9.95 % 100.00 % 0 0.00 % 0.00 %

How to interpret (since blank space is auto removed):

Player: Kaliyah
Number or attacks per round based on weapon: 1
Attack Rounds: 1106
Actual attacks: 1216
Extra Attacks: 110
Double attack rate: 9.95%

[Economizer]

And hot damn, WHM has some sexy shield defense, must mean they are a front line job too!

Why are you so afraid of people having fun and occasionally getting to smack things?

No, they are weaker because they are subbed, and a WHM/WAR apparently can DD

Most White Mages who take up arms rely on Clubs, and as such usually sub either Ninja or Dancer. Sub warrior is much less common. I won't say it isn't viable, since Staff styles and relying on Fencer are somewhat slightly more possible with Double Attack, but it is slightly less possible then a Red Mage's choices (I'm inclined to believe that /WAR and /DRK are just as valid as /NIN and /DNC with Red Mage, since Red Mage has about equal proficiency with Sword and Dagger - although many Red Mages complain about this, I think it fits Red Mage well in the jack of all trades role).

Again, I wouldn't be afraid of Red Mage melee. Blue Mages probably have the most role choices of any class, so even if Blue Mages were suddenly told to get in the back because people thought it was more efficient, it could fill those roles too.

I don't think anyone wanted to melee on jobs arrogantly viewed as incapable of those things doesn't want any more then more options to play on that particular job, or even just a way to augment their current capabilities. I don't need to cite legendary players who fought things solo while sometimes augmenting their job's capabilities with melee to make this point.

[Scuro]

Kitkat your wrong because it has been stated that WAR's DA is equal, and that the calculation was off, but hey keep spinning around in your circles. Its funny that you make it sound like you are twisting me and such when in truth, you just sound ignorant and I can't help myself but to squash your ethics.

Also Economizer the reason why is because I believe certain jobs were designed for it, and when the jobs were 75, RDM was a beast, and almost a rediculous god job for what it could do. It was able to solo NMs that no other job could, and was a job nobody would want to fight in a PVP because of how dirty it could be. Then came BLU and was always trying to compete with RDM, while it would actually be the DD that RDM could never be due to community aesthetic. RDM was still able to cast a shadow on the skill and purpose that is a BLU. Now RDM has been reduced to lower then competition for a BLU in the DD field, and thats how it should be. As stated by the manifesto, BLU is to the true jack of all trades, and I'll see it through. As some RDMs know, I only post on DD RDM related posts, and I post only if they hit red or get on the front page. Because I don't want SE to waste its time with stupid ideas, and actually focus on what the job does good, namely enfeebling. It would be nice to see them get a big boost in buffing like it has stated, but we'll see how it plays out. Til that happens, I'll be here putting out fires.

The play you are talkinga bout Economy is for fun, and for d*cking around, not for real NMs, and that is the point.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

No one would Melee on a hard mob in the same sense a BLU (Ultimate TP feeder) would get kicked from the party if he tried too.

[Kitkat]

Is that so? Where is your Data? How about a source? Really, if you're going to state something at least have the sense to back it up. All you're doing right now is moving your fingers and producing basically nothing to quash or prove else wise. I produced recorded data as of this morning with no other DA gear on and using the job as Sub to show that Merits were not a factor and a main that does not otherwise get any other traits that would produce extra attacks.

Show you're more than a troll for once, get the data with a sample larger in scale than the one I used. If what you say is true than someone somewhere has produced the data to prove the statement.

[Scuro]

I've already supplied the proof in what the DEV said that they did not change anything when they gave BLU the trait. Therefore its obvious that the calculations are more rounded then they are hardline. Also the conversation around DD things for RDM is over, so well... I have no other reason to post in this, not to mention the dude that made the poll post, is making my job easier so I don't have much to concern myself with.

[Greatguardian]

I've already supplied the proof in what the DEV said that they did not change anything when they gave BLU the trait. Therefore its obvious that the calculations are more rounded then they are hardline. Also the conversation around DD things for RDM is over, so well... I have no other reason to post in this, not to mention the dude that made the poll post, is making my job easier so I don't have much to concern myself with.

Current BG consensus after exhaustive testing is that BLU TA is 5% and DA is 7%.

Camate also very specifically said that the BLU DA rate was 7%, in the post both linked to and quoted by Kit.

Do you even read posts before responding to them?

That's a rhetorical question, by the way.

[Kitkat]

Best part is Camate specifically states it is the spell combination trait, not all DA traits and that the blu trait was never 10% to begin with. I also supplied additional data to show that DA from /war is 10% with a sample exceeding 1000 rounds which is typically accepted as relevant. I can go to 2000, or even 10000, and I can bet right now the data will not change; it will still be within the tolerable error acceptance range of 10%.

Also, this is applicable to the discussion of rdm melee cause you stated that a subjob can't dictate the capability to DD just because it gives the job something it can't get normally. The side track testing was to show that information I brought to the table about blu passive traits being weaker, unable to scale higher, and the few that could cause DD changes in the blu's spell line up since they have limited set points and limited slots. This means they can't get these "key DD traits" without sacrificing something else. This is exactly what a Rdm has to do in order to gain back-up DD capabilities. Without the proper subs, yes rdm melee is somewhat lacking, but rdm can also tank and, long before Blu was a twinkle in SE's eye for FFXI, we were kiting Kirin around for non-zerg LS. Hell I was doing that as /whm and after spell enmity nerf I did it as /war. Avesta solo'd gods without the need for Melee, does that mean SE needs to nerf our magic too? I'm honestly trying to see why you think increasing Enfeebling/mage aspects only, won't make it so that a Rdm will go out and be the new Avesta again and with much greater ease.

Also, your misconception about rdm meleeing things in the past, solo, that other jobs couldn't was due to an issue with Utsusemi, nothing that had to do with Rdm exactly. Know how I know? I was around back then and did the same thing. After they nerfed/fixed utsusemi a lot of those NM's couldn't be solo'd in that manner anymore. I suggest you do some research about that before you bring it up as ammunition for your side of the argument.

[Economizer]

Also, your misconception about rdm meleeing things in the past, solo, that other jobs couldn't was due to an issue with Utsusemi, nothing that had to do with Rdm exactly. Know how I know? I was around back then and did the same thing. After they nerfed/fixed utsusemi a lot of those NM's couldn't be solo'd in that manner anymore. I suggest you do some research about that before you bring it up as ammunition for your side of the argument.

I'm not sure what nerf you are talking about in particular (please clarify), but I was under the impression that for casting Utsusemi, Red Mage is the second best job due to large amounts of Fast Cast. If evading hits didn't matter, Red Mage would probably always win out on /NIN due to a mix of Magic Defense Bonus and Fast Cast.