ATTN DEVS and COMMUNITY REPS: Mythics

[Staren]

First and foremost every server has known gilbuyers who pay more than items are worth without batting an eye. People who earn their money rarely do this. As the saying goes a fool and his money are soon parted. Secondly, praising people who can farm gil and bashing empyrean holders in the same sentence is oxymoronic. You can farm the gil for most relics in 35 fell cleave parties. About the same effort most people spent on their first tahrongi empy lowman. So whats the difference in earning between them? What makes one a more casual player effort than the other. Thirdly, comparing your ability at farming gil for a relic to making a mythic is either a sad joke or an insult if you really meant it to show how much work you did to earn it. If you'd read any of this thread you'd know the pithy of bazaars that sell alex compared to the amount that sell currency makes relics easier to get by a factor of ten easy not to mention you only have to get half as many coins as we do alex in the first place. So when you three man a mythic in less than a year and a half I'll take your "effort" and skill level more seriously, than a gil bought relic.

[Alhanelem]

MMOs that start making a fine line between "average" and 'worthy" players is a dead one.

Guess this is a dead one then? The relics and mythics were specifically designed to not be realistically obtainable by everyone. I started a relic and will probably never finish it. Lots of people start relics and mythics and never finish them. Most people simply don't have the time when there are lots of other things to do in the game. If you're not a "hardcore" player, your chances of obtaining one of these weapons is lower. That's just the way things are. By all means, attempt one if you want. But every MMO has highly difficult to get items that are beyond the reach of some players. That isn't a "mark" of a dead MMO, though.

One little thing though. I think the statement should be "casual" and "hardcore" players, not "average" and "worthy." The former suggests the amount of time spent, while the latter suggests a player's skill level. Casual players can still be "worthy" players.

[Shoko]

Guess this is a dead one then? The relics and mythics were specifically designed to not be realistically obtainable by everyone. I started a relic and will probably never finish it. Lots of people start relics and mythics and never finish them. Most people simply don't have the time when there are lots of other things to do in the game. If you're not a "hardcore" player, your chances of obtaining one of these weapons is lower. That's just the way things are. By all means, attempt one if you want. But every MMO has highly difficult to get items that are beyond the reach of some players. That isn't a "mark" of a dead MMO, though.

One little thing though. I think the statement should be "casual" and "hardcore" players, not "average" and "worthy." The former suggests the amount of time spent, while the latter suggests a player's skill level. Casual players can still be "worthy" players.

Sorry, but I'm going to disagree with most of what you said. Not because it's "wrong", but because the times have changed. It's not 2008 or 2009 anymore, we are in 2011, soon to be 2012, post Abyssea.

It's nice to tell everyone a canned "The relics and mythics were specifically designed to not be realistically obtainable by everyone." speech, but along with the times changing, the method of acquisition of relic has also changed. If relic was better than empyreans right now at this moment, you'd see a large pool of relic holders, close to equal with emps. That's simply how easy Dynamis is now despite complaints about the zones.

Everyone assumes that Dynamis is simply unbearable now, but most of those same people are non-BST soloists or duo/trio crews. A team of 6~8 hitting Dynamis every single day can snipe 200~400 in currency every single run with full TE. Even BST/DNC soloists can make it out with 60~150 currency per run easy, in any zone (try it if you doubt me). I've personally seen people on my server and on BG pump out relics in 1-2 months, starting from scratch and buying close to or no extra currency at all. This does not require you to be "hardcore." It requires you to only have 2 hours to devote to Dynamis each day (and 3-5 friends for very good runs), bare minimum (which is slightly more than the average playtime of a gamer with some semblance of a life outside of MMO gaming).

At this moment, comparisons of mythic weapons to relic or empyrean weapons is very foolish, and very poorly thought out. Not only is there a slew of of assaults, Einherjar, and bosses that you need to kill, but even staying on all of this daily and hitting the requirements hard is 6~8 months of your time minimum. And for that, I honestly feel that these requirements should stay they same, with minor changes that allow for more ampoules and tokens, and tags that should have a fast uncapped output, similar to traverser stones.

Alexandrite in itself is an entirely different story. Right now, this is the hardest and most outdated portion of mythic requirements, period. Three people in Dynamis can have a crappy run and still make it out with 150 currency on average. The same three people can have a perfect run in most of the Salvage zones and exit with 15~50 Alexandrite (50 including the slaughter of all of the Archaic Machinery as well as assuming the Mega Boss does not drop a bag... with TH7+). Something is very wrong if you can sit there for a moment and visualize this.


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I read a post on the first page stating that updated Salvage gear would mean Alex dropping back to "3k" levels. Even that is very unreasonable, as I can't see updated Salvage gear dropping Alex below 6k, due to the fact that +2 armor is not only good, but it's EXTREMELY casual friendly to obtain. In my opinion, Alex should really be cut down to 10 or 15k, or have all Mega Bosses drop a bag 100% of the time or a combination of the two. All of the legwork you have to do prior to even turning in any Alexandrite and after the fact more than justifies the reduction and/or ease of obtaining Alex.

P.S.: I'm that type of guy that Staren mentioned... sitting on a mountain of gil, waiting for Alex to drop inevitably so I can finish up this now 2 1/2 year endevour. Like hell I'm paying 10~12k per Alex, however.

[Rearden]

Great post/contribution. Should lower total and increase drop rates

[Byrth]

In my opinion, the problem with Mythics and the Alexandrite requirement has absolutely nothing to do with the price. If SE had made a part of the quest "trade 300 million gil," I would take no issue with that.

The problem with it is that it puts you in direct competition for a limited resource. Every other part of the Mythic quest is best completed with a group of friends. It would have been entirely viable to have "Mythic Linkshells" that basically just spam ToAU content so every member can build a Mythic if it weren't for the Alexandrite requirement. As it is, people who want mythics are best off discouraging others from pursuing them and calling on all the favors they've got to get the requirements done. It's very much not pleasant, while casually knocking out requirements with an enthusiastic group of friends could have been fun.

[Alhanelem]

Sorry, but I'm going to disagree with most of what you said. Not because it's "wrong", but because the times have changed. It's not 2008 or 2009 anymore, we are in 2011, soon to be 2012, post Abyssea.

It's nice to tell everyone a canned "The relics and mythics were specifically designed to not be realistically obtainable by everyone." speech, but along with the times changing, the method of acquisition of relic has also changed. If relic was better than empyreans right now at this moment, you'd see a large pool of relic holders, close to equal with emps. That's simply how easy Dynamis is now despite complaints about the zones.

Everyone assumes that Dynamis is simply unbearable now, but most of those same people are non-BST soloists or duo/trio crews. A team of 6~8 hitting Dynamis every single day can snipe 200~400 in currency every single run with full TE. Even BST/DNC soloists can make it out with 60~150 currency per run easy, in any zone (try it if you doubt me). I've personally seen people on my server and on BG pump out relics in 1-2 months, starting from scratch and buying close to or no extra currency at all. This does not require you to be "hardcore." It requires you to only have 2 hours to devote to Dynamis each day (and 3-5 friends for very good runs), bare minimum (which is slightly more than the average playtime of a gamer with some semblance of a life outside of MMO gaming).

At this moment, comparisons of mythic weapons to relic or empyrean weapons is very foolish, and very poorly thought out. Not only is there a slew of of assaults, Einherjar, and bosses that you need to kill, but even staying on all of this daily and hitting the requirements hard is 6~8 months of your time minimum. And for that, I honestly feel that these requirements should stay they same, with minor changes that allow for more ampoules and tokens, and tags that should have a fast uncapped output, similar to traverser stones.

Alexandrite in itself is an entirely different story. Right now, this is the hardest and most outdated portion of mythic requirements, period. Three people in Dynamis can have a crappy run and still make it out with 150 currency on average. The same three people can have a perfect run in most of the Salvage zones and exit with 15~50 Alexandrite (50 including the slaughter of all of the Archaic Machinery as well as assuming the Mega Boss does not drop a bag... with TH7+). Something is very wrong if you can sit there for a moment and visualize this.


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I read a post on the first page stating that updated Salvage gear would mean Alex dropping back to "3k" levels. Even that is very unreasonable, as I can't see updated Salvage gear dropping Alex below 6k, due to the fact that +2 armor is not only good, but it's EXTREMELY casual friendly to obtain. In my opinion, Alex should really be cut down to 10 or 15k, or have all Mega Bosses drop a bag 100% of the time or a combination of the two. All of the legwork you have to do prior to even turning in any Alexandrite and after the fact more than justifies the reduction and/or ease of obtaining Alex.

P.S.: I'm that type of guy that Staren mentioned... sitting on a mountain of gil, waiting for Alex to drop inevitably so I can finish up this now 2 1/2 year endevour. Like hell I'm paying 10~12k per Alex, however.

I'll agree with you on certain points, like that farming dynamis is much easier now for the average person, but it is still a huge time commitment. so all in all I have to disagree with, but I do respect, your opinion.

Consider Mythics as well. You still need more than one or two buddies for einherjar, it's almost impossible to get anyone other than a close friend to help with things like the near east beastmen leaders, Assault still requires 3 people and you have to complete all of them at least twice (I stil haven't finished all of them and I've been playing since soon after the US release), nyzul is easy but takes a long time to get the number of tokens. Even if alexandrite are reduced, mythics still wouldn't exactly be a joke. You are definitely right that things have shifted and the level of difficulty isn't what it once was- but the time required is still there. I certainly wouldn't argue against a reduction of the alexandrite requirement, but whatever amount they set is still going to require a significant time investment.

Do you think there's a problem with having some rare and exclusive weapons? Lots of games have things in them that few people ever see (The ending of Ninja Gaiden 1, for instance or the super secret message in Metroid Fusion that requires an extremely difficult trick to reach). They are never absolutely necessary, of course, just the mark of an experienced or in some cases partially insane player. I'm just asking for your perspective on this. Maybe the analogy isn't great, but I don't personally have a problem with having things in video games that not everyone will successfully obtain or access.

[Shoko]

Competition is also a problem, and I agree. However, it's not as big an issue as the actual current output of Alex across servers. Multiple people were doing mythics between 08~09 and still completing them, with prices as low as 2~4k per Alexandrite. As soon as everyone migrated from ToAU to Abyssea, obtaining a Alexandrite suddenly and drastically became a crazy endevour for the hours put in, even with minimal competition.

I can count 3 people on my newly merged server that's actively purchasing Alexandrite @12k+ -- it's obvious I'm on the discouraged side on buying at those prices, but not only don't I wish to spend my days farming more gil, I no longer have the time. I agree with the end however. Calling in favors to lowman all of the other events was a very fun ride.

[Byrth]

Well, if you're expecting the prices to drop . . . you may be waiting a while. They likely aren't reworking ToAU this patch and (in my opinion) when they do it will be incredibly unlikely that prices for Alex will actually drop. Lets say that they double supply and halve the requirements, then encourage people to do Salvage/rejuvenate Einherjar, NI, etc.

How many of the people doing Salvage again are going to start their own mythic?

How many people does it take to completely use up the Alexandrite supply on a server at 3k? 5k? 9k? 12k?

We have maybe 6 serious buyers (including NA and JP) on Lakshmi at the moment, and the price is 10k each with an upward bend.

[Shoko]

I'll agree with you on certain points, like that farming dynamis is much easier now for the average person, but it is still a huge time commitment. so all in all I have to disagree with, but I do respect, your opinion.

It's only a huge commitment if you have other obligations in game. if it's your sole purpose in game to make currency for your relic, it's now very "casual" friendly. The real problem I see is that people simply haven't caught on to using parties of 6 dedicated friends.

Consider Mythics as well. You still need more than one or two buddies for einherjar, it's almost impossible to get anyone other than a close friend to help with things like the near east beastmen leaders, Assault still requires 3 people and you have to complete all of them at least twice (I stil haven't finished all of them and I've been playing since soon after the US release), nyzul is easy but takes a long time to get the number of tokens. Even if alexandrite are reduced, mythics still wouldn't exactly be a joke. You are definitely right that things have shifted and the level of difficulty isn't what it once was- but the time required is still there. I certainly wouldn't argue against a reduction of the alexandrite requirement, but whatever amount they set is still going to require a significant time investment.

Considering Mythics indeed-- however, there is no event now that you cannot do more efficiently than before to cut corners. The only hindrance now is the time and character restrictions placed on entry.

1) Beastman Kings can now be done with a party of 4~6, and no longer with a dedicated PLD, if your people are smart and well geared. Salvage Bosses are still a 3 man joke as they've always been. Odin is also now much easier than before with inclusion of Emp weapons, but still very annoying to build up feathers to the fight. 6-8 can kill him no problem.

2) Lost and Found is the only "difficult" assault now. I could perhaps name another 4 assaults that aren't difficult, but annoying. Every other of the 45ish assaults are a complete joke for a team of 3 (for example, First Lieutenant assaults-- literally completed all of them in no less than 2 minutes a piece). It's now a hindrance to only have 4-5 tags an event run.

3) A smart and speedy 6 man team can shoot up 10 floors per Nyzul Isle run no problem, this including each 20th floor boss. This indirectly leads to more tokens than when it was 75 cap. Also a hindrance of tags now as well.

4) ZNM bosses are all a joke, 3-5 man no problem.

If Alexandrite was reduced, I agree that it would still be a semi difficult endevour due to the time required to do everything else, but the time invested would be justified upon completion. I'm saying this after the fact that I've done just about everything else (all I need left is 14 assaults and Tyger's Tail, in addition to 15k Alex).

Do you think there's a problem with having some rare and exclusive weapons? Lots of games have things in them that few people ever see (The ending of Ninja Gaiden 1, for instance or the super secret message in Metroid Fusion that requires an extremely difficult trick to reach). They are never absolutely necessary, of course, just the mark of an experienced or in some cases partially insane player. I'm just asking for your perspective on this. Maybe the analogy isn't great, but I don't personally have a problem with having things in video games that not everyone will successfully obtain or access.

I have zero problems at all with having something extremely difficult to obtain! That's the spice of life and your right if you wish to go for it. Ironically, I know deep down that the mythic I'm working for (Tizona) really doesn't add as much a dynamic to my job over the Emp I already have for it, but doing just for the "Holy crap, this guy has that weapon!" Factor is still awesome.

It's so sad that there are zero NA created Tizonas (or any other mythic outside of one Yagrush) on my server. Ain't even mad at JP for pulling for their own.

[Staren]

Do you think there's a problem with having some rare and exclusive weapons?

I do when the only viable endgame weapon option for mage jobs is their mythic weapon. If the Relic or Empyrean weapon for mages were actually useful for something other than dd mages or looking pretty I'd have no problem whatsoever with the mythics being the hardest weapons to get and just a nice to have for all jobs but for endgame weapons its the only one worth having. Not like others that can say relics > empy > mythic or empy > relic > mythic some jobs are mythic > relic > empy. If SE had not setup this imbalance it'd be fair.