Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner

**Razushu** · 09-04-2011 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by Malamasala

I don't know what kind of people they employ over there, but at my work I get happy each time someone drops by to ask a question that I'm able to answer and feel that I helped someone.

Spirits also happen to be a really hot topic. The majority of Summoners want to hear what will happen to spirits. The only ones saying "no thanks" are the people who fear that asking for spirits will somehow harm their chances at getting exactly what they want. Which is silly... do you see me sitting here complaining about all your questions "stealing my spirit question slot"?

(I only say that about the "How do I beat AV?" questions asked at festivals year after year)

Yeah but if the question is about something completely off topic or not on the current agenda, chances are it's not going to get an answer. You can't walk into a Pc repair shop and ask "how many calories are in a bagel?", sure someone may be able to answer it, but it's nothing to do with what they're working on, or plan to work on soon. Now imagine it was your job to forward questions, from the asker to this PC repair center, would you bother passing on that question?

They may be a hot topic, but I would say the communtity is spilt up 50/50 on them. Those of us saying spirits are fine, are saying it because... they are fine. An update to spirits is not needed, and I've yet to see one argument for spirits being adjusted that is a) worth the dev time it would take to implement, and b) could actually be a useful update.

It's not about stealing "question slots", it's about voicing my opinion(which is different to yours), so that SE sees ther is a sizeable portion of the SMN community that are happy with how spirits are, and would rather see real updates to the job. If we didn't post our differing opinions, SE could be dfolled into believing that SMNs's are 100% argeed on spirits needing a fix and waste time adjusting them in place of updates that will benefit SMN in very real ways.

**Korpg** · 09-04-2011 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by Razushu

It's not about stealing "question slots", it's about voicing my opinion(which is different to yours), so that SE sees ther is a sizeable portion of the SMN community that are happy with how spirits are, and would rather see real updates to the job. If we didn't post our differing opinions, SE could be dfolled into believing that SMNs's are 100% argeed on spirits needing a fix and waste time adjusting them in place of updates that will benefit SMN in very real ways.

Watch out Raz, I already pointed that out to both Dallas and Mala and they both blacklisted me because my viewpoints are different than theirs. Having an opinion might get you blacklisted too!

**Razushu** · 09-04-2011 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Korpg

Watch out Raz, I already pointed that out to both Dallas and Mala and they both blacklisted me because my viewpoints are different than theirs. Having an opinion might get you blacklisted too!

That's never stopped me sharing my opinion before lol

**Jerbob** · 09-04-2011 09:26 PM

I would also like to see update elemental spirits, but I think we/SE need to start thinking creatively to bring the spirits back into the fold. On the one hand they could just give them access to Tier V spells and be done with it - perhaps fun to play around with but still ultimately a niche-use pet at best.

Alternatively we could ask for the best of both worlds and have a system where we can use them in tandem with Avatars to fix some of the problems that plague our job. Thinking creatively! Perhaps something like this:

1. JA that lets us have an Avatar and free spirit summoned at the same time, with the spirit's spellcasting capped in level
2. Spirit doesn't move into range of mobs but casts spells and gains TP whenever our Avatar does, or BPs are used
3. Spirit TP can be used as a resource for new pet commands that do a variety of things like conserve MP, reduce BP delay, increase Ward potency, increase avatar Accuracy, give spikes/en- effects etc etc etc.

Building a new system like that would help solve the issue with spirits whilst keeping the focus on Avatars, give us the new tools we need to be competitive, makes meleeing Avatars more worthwhile, and has in-built limitations (TP gain, recast timer on new pet commands etc) that stop SE pulling the "overpowered" card or building some atrocity like Avatar's Favor again. Start the system at level 20 and scale it from there and Summoner's poor performance at low levels is fixed too.

I don't know, just an example, but the point still stands. Instead of "Give spirits more spells and give us a BP delay reduction JA", creatively blending all our needs into one system might be more fun, practical and effective.

**Covenant** · 09-04-2011 10:41 PM

I'm not really hot on ONLY spirits. I'm my thread, I tried to remind people of the original split between spirits and avatars(namely, spirits nukers and avatars physicals/elemental strikes). Then tried to explain how SE would need to backtrack both, all the way to lvl 1 to "fix" them.

Equating spirits to a single tier spell and having Summoners "move" beyond, much like a BLM moving beyond tier 1 or 2 of fire is disingenuous at best and outright lie at worst. Spirits automatically evolved as were intended by SE up until 75 and "forgotten". It was both easier( programming-wise) to place all the burden on avatars, since the casting system used for spirits were insanely complicated.

One of the worst arguments people like kkropg and ruzushu, used is the same one "Morpheus" used when explaining "the matrix" to "Neo"...namely, the element siphon/BATTERY argument. To use their analogy, BLM should be able to cast fire I ands gain back mp..because those are battery spells. THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, AS DOES HAVING SPIrITS SIMPLY FOR ELEMeNT SIPHON.

Whining over, SE should simply state their intentions. Using "body language" and assumptions, are never valid arguments for something. I'm still convinced, the problem is as I stated and others reflected, is that any changes introduced to normal spirits would also affect mob summoner spirits and random elementals. Imagine increasing a melee/def of a pet spirits and having the same done to those mob types. Mob pets would shoot up to IT and elementals to ITT.

This is why I support a tier 2 spirit, NM spirit, VNM spirit, or hybrid spirit suggestions. New programming for these pets won't change the "old" programming for old spirits. Plus, SE could eliminate enfeeb cycles...unless they introduced spirit ONLY newer tiers of enfeebs, such as poison 3 or slow 3. Once enfeeb cycles eliminated, spirits could forces on casting strong tier IV and above on par with an automaton. Factoring in normal recast timers for tier IV and above spells, with an increased recast timer of spirits, could limit over nuking issues people are afraid of.

After all another concern would be a summoner going down their elemental spirit list one by one and having each cast a single tier IV and above spell.

NONE of these spirit suggestions would limit an avatars growth, if as I suggested SE forces on "physical" Bloodpacts with a multi-effect use such as Ramuh's shocking strike...which is AoE, dmamge AND strong paralyze effect. A mix of avatars physical/effect strike would eliminate a spirits need to enfeeb and allow them to focus on MAGIC damage. Having spirits focus on MAGIC damage, would free up Bloodpacts and wards to be used for increased physical/multi-effect strikes. Having spirits focus on single target nukes, while avatars use AoE elemental magic would further individualize both and make them unique. It's a win, win for both spirits and avatars for players if SE would adapt my "vision" and "fixes".

**Malamasala** · 09-04-2011 11:44 PM

No it isn't. The only reason why Spirits keep getting brought up is because you keep bringing it up. You as in a singularity.

No they don't. Nobody but you has brought up spirits as a whole, and the people who expand on your ideas are doing that to shut you up. You do not speak for the majority of the playerbase, and most certainly not for the majority of playerbase who levels SMNs.

I speak for the threads above. Who do you speak for? All the threads I didn't link? Sorry, but those aren't "anti spirit" threads, they are just threads on other topics. (Mainly BP timers, wards, new avatars, all 3 which has been answered in the thread btw, leaving only spirits as the unanswered big question)

You even don't listen to the people who oppose you in this limited viewpoint of yours.

I listen to everyone except Korpg and Raz, two people who have proved they do not listen to my viewpoint so why should I listen to theirs? Funny enough that usually means there is nobody left saying anything negative about spirits.

Also, the devs have specifically stated that the focus for SMNs will be avatars and not spirits.

You have no idea how long that perspective is though. For all you know, it could be talking just this september update. I want to hear if there are any plans at all for spirits, or if they are OFFICIALLY counted as junk code.

**Razushu** · 09-04-2011 11:56 PM