Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

[FrankReynolds]

Retaliation proc rate is always going to be > 0 damage. SA damage is always going to be < 100% of potential.

[Laphine]

always is a very strong word..

[Arcon]

always is a very strong word..

It's true though. And I don't believe that math one bit. I find it hard to believe your experiences as well. I'm both THF and WAR, and I've compared against both other THF and other WAR a lot, and every time the difference was more than "noticeable" it was gaping. WAR + THF is pretty much the same as WAR only, DD wise, that's how much THF pales in comparison. I don't know where you're getting your experiences from.

And parses are actually reliable, if done under a large number of varying circumstances (law of large numbers). Math is perfect, but your math isn't. Statistics is also part of the math required to calculate the average damage, which is what the spreadsheet doesn't do. This includes people's behaviour during battle, the expected value for SA/TA uses, the expected value for SA/TA success, the expected Retaliation bonus, the expected Restraint bonus, etc. There are just tons of statistical factors that the spreadsheets don't cover, so that math is partial and unreliable.

The only thieves I've ever seen pull their weight in DD situations were Breaze (Mythic/X's, full Skadi set) and Alljoker (Mandau, full Hecatomb +1 set and all around perfect gear). And that was at 75 on birds.

Sure, if you just take any random WAR... despite what people say about Abyssea's difficulty, it still requires skill to be actually good. The bar for good and bad has just changed, but there's still bad people. They perform better compared to before, but still a lot worse to actually good players.

[Smush]

most times we let tanks cap hate so i can land SA easy and TA for is already easy to land after that mobs dead or almost with 2 masa 1 ukon and my twash + a wildfire cor and if you pull hate on a VWNM T3-4 and your not a pld you will die fast... trust me i have experienced it.
If they make SA easier to land or add a new type of force crit thats easier to land with a good mod then i think thf will be right where it needs to in DD and im sure we will get more DW. could use more hate abilities tho.

[Alaik]

Well there's two sides to that argument. You can't rely on parses for most things as human error will always make it lower than your potential. However, given THF is a job that is hugely based on human interaction, putting it in a bubble is stupid. I will be looking at the spreadsheet tonight, because if you guys are saying it's allowing THF to hit dDEX caps easier than WARs I'm hugely suspicious. On VT/IT mobs we simply are not going to pair up or beat an Ukon WAR, not unless you're comparing an amazing THF vs a bad WAR or buffing the THF all to hell and not the WAR.

EDIT: At work so can't do much but I figured what the hell and got the spreadsheet, and yeah, there's tons missing. Retaliation being a factor as mentioned, but also, I'm getting a huge difference using it on the same target when both jobs have the same buffs in WAR's favor, not THF's. Maybe you guys wouldn't mind posting the two spreadsheets you're using for a better comparison?

[Laphine]

What experieces did i provide? I only did talk about the spreadsheet. The only experience i have versus an ukon war was when my friend and i finished our emps back in january. He, off course, beat me handily and we both pretty much stopped playing ever since. I can't talk about experience and that was an inside abyssea experience. All this current talk is about outside tho. And the fact remains that thf has everything in its favor to decrease difference against war.

[Alaik]

I mean put a link to your modified spreadsheet up. Experiences as in, your experience using the spreadsheet. Kinematics usually does amazing work which is why I was kinda WTFing at you saying it showed THF beating WAR as a DD. So I wanted to see if one of us was using a field incorrectly to cause the pure math to skew in another's favor.

What do you mean, "And the fact remains that thf has everything in its favor to decrease difference against war." also?

[FrankReynolds]

Always IS a very strong word. If the war is going all out (which is the premise of the discussion), he will always pull hate and retaliate eventually.

[Laphine]

That's outside. Since outside we don't have crazy crits, sa/ta means more. Not only comparing against other jobs, that's comparing ourselves too. When we SA the ratio of damage between the main hit and its whole round is bigger outside. But SA/TA can only do so much, and we fall back when haste is stacked in.

The other aspect is that of melee crits. If we take the agi Kinematics uses for lv97 mobs and apply them outside. THF has capped crit while meleeing and war simply doesn't. Meanwhile our af (and we can use 4 pieces unlike most jobs) is a nice mix-match of acc, attack and dex.

edit: the issue was not war not retaliating Frank. It was saying that a thf will always miss at least one SA/TA.

[Alaik]

And as a rule, THF will miss one. A good THF will miss them less than a bad one but to even imply a THF won't is lol.

Also, again can I see your editted spreadsheets? Putting it in again, and I don't see THF capping crit so easily when WAR doesn't. One of us must be doing something wrong.

Also, pick an area inside or outside. Inside every job has capped crits and a WHM can do amazing dmg. You use stats for inside abyssea but then act like SA usage is for outside (AKA, mob not on the fastest attacker or spinning tons). There's also the fact that a stacked WS is going to do as much as an unstacked WS for a WAR. Differences between the two only come down to the fact a THF ends up getting some JA pause to use SA/TA/AC/whatever whereas WARs abilities only incur that penalty once for a much longer duration. (3 minutes vs one hit), etc.

Would you mind posting the spreadsheets with your information plugged in?