[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM

[Greatguardian]

Red Mage living up to its maximum magical potential is not a matter of being spread thin. It's a matter of being a half decent Red Mage.

I know my role every single time I leave my MH on RDM. It's to be everything, and be damn good at all of it at the exact same time. Except melee DD, I have my Verethragna Mnk for that.

[Supersun]

...and tank

[Ketaru]

Potential homogenization between SCH and RDM is very real come 99 without SE throwing in some major monkey wrenches. That's a problem, and one Ketaru tried to skirt around mentioning the sword thing as a diversifier like it shouldn't matter.

And the exact same people here were up in arms about it happening at level 80, then at level 85, then at level 90. Except something happened, SE actually started giving the jobs radically different spells and abilities (Libra come to mind? What about Saboteur? Or Addle? Or Adloquium?)

As for the Sword thing, no it doesn't matter as long as what we're talking about is casting here. If you want to include it as a distinction between the two jobs, go ahead. I'll even back you up on it. RDM can cap Haste. SCH cannot. RDM has access to powerful critical hit WSs. SCH does not. RDM has a job ability that improves accuracy. SCH does not. RDM has a wide variety of gear to choose.

That last point is a very important distinction between the two jobs since, as a SCH yourself apparently, you ought to be more than well aware of the glaring omissions in the gear that SCH does not have access to compared to RDM...or any other job in the game for that matter. We all know this piece right? Even BRD can use it!

Either way, while Arts/Strat limitations can be a factor, I still stand behind the fact your role should be better pegged before heading out.

The fact the playerbase limits the roles that a player can fill isn't somehow a reflection of how useful RDM or SCH can actually be. That's just for the purpose of easy categorization. Like I said, SCH is hurting right now primarily because we're actively trying to reduce the amount of people that have claim on lotting loot. That is totally different with the latest addition to the game, Voidwatch, where your chance at goodies won't be better just because you fight with less people and, in fact, alliance play is strongly encouraged.

If your alliance has a primary healer and a primary nuker and has key support covered, and you've got a spot left and aren't sure whether you want additional healing or additional nuking, there is absolutely no reason SCH cannot take up that spot and grease the wheels even further by using their spells to make the other mages more efficient, which is really the purpose of enmity and weather spells, as well as supplement healing and nuking. I don't know about anybody else, but I never really believed the best way to play SCH was to decide, ahead of time, whether you wanted to imitate WHM or BLM today.

As for the criticism that SCH cannot react as immediately to a sudden situation, I for one have never had a problem where I wasn't able to save somebody from something just because of ability spam. Enlightenment is always readily available. And if you're having more emergencies than you can handle in 3 minutes and 45 seconds, I would think that's a bigger problem with the group than with the SCH.

EDIT: On the subject of roles to fill, you want my honest opinion that I know some posters for exclusively the mage side of things may not agree on? I think RDM is perfectly serviceable as a frontline unit as it is now and any update to our melee shouldn't be looked upon as some moral failing of the community and of SE. There are situations where you would want another frontliner. You'll deal damage to be sure- whether it's worthwhile damage or not is entirely up to the group you're running with. You can be a co-tank. Maybe nuking the particular mob you're on would be highly inappropriate. And with that, you still have not suddenly lost your ability to cast your enfeebles, Haste, Refresh, Phalanx II, or Cures.

My feeling however is that, 95% of the time, we do not run into such situations where we need to fill that particular blend of roles (in fact, I'd venture to guess that, 95% of the time, we're in situations where we want to minimize the amount of people on the mob these days) And unless you know you're going into it ahead of time, you're not going to be prepared for it when it happens. And, by the time you recognize that you're in such a situation, it's probably too late; you're already subbing mage and have staffs. Maybe you ought to curse our inability to swap from /WHM to /NIN out in the field?

[Supersun]

And the exact same people here were up in arms about it happening at level 80, then at level 85, then at level 90.

99 is the big one. Other jobs getting Cure IV and Haste from Rdm sub is quite a big power-up.

99 changes the name of the game from only a handful of jobs being capable of maintaining a haste cycle to EVERY job being able to do it if absolutely necessary as long as they have /rdm.

[Greatguardian]

If Haste Cycles are a defining characteristic of Red Mage that would actually impede our popularity and desirability at 99 if other mages were to gain access to them, something is epic-tier wrong with the world.

[noodles355]

Awww, sorry you're so offended.

But let me put it flatly for you.

Is Warrior Defined by Warrior's Charge?

Is Dancer Defined by Saber Dance?

Or lets go over to the Mage Side...

Burst II, Freeze II?

Martyr?

Burst II and Freeze II were 50% of the nukes you cast on most things (Thunder IV and Blizzard IV being the other 50%).
Saber Dance? meh. Fan Dance? Dnc can only solo half the stuff it does because of Fan Dance.
What about Drg? The only justification for them in an event ally is their Merit ability: Angon.
Outside of Treasure Hunter, Thief has Feint. That's it's use.

I don't deny that our merit spells should be scrolls. Of course they should. What I take issue with is you're attempt to say "Rdm sucks and has nothing worthwhile QQ" which is bullshit because of the aforementioned spells. And guess what? The same argument is true of Dragoon. For an alliance at an event, they only thing they can contribute that others cant is their merit ability: Angon.

[Economizer]

I'd comment on everything, but as this is a lengthy comment already, I did my best to shorten it. I'm apparently not good at doing that. Sorry for jumbling quotes up a bit, was trying to do my best to flow my thoughts into a coherent, readable form.

Potential homogenization between SCH and RDM is very real come 99 without SE throwing in some major monkey wrenches.

I've been very forward looking with my assessments, and this is a big reason why I asked the questions I did. Although it seems that some Red Mages and Scholars do not see things this way. I would partially attribute this to play style.

And the exact same people here were up in arms about it happening at level 80, then at level 85, then at level 90. Except something happened, SE actually started giving the jobs radically different spells and abilities (Libra come to mind? What about Saboteur? Or Addle? Or Adloquium?)

This is what I'd also attribute to Red Mages and Scholars not seeing themselves as carbon copies. I hope this trend continues.

As for the Sword thing, no it doesn't matter as long as what we're talking about is casting here. If you want to include it as a distinction between the two jobs, go ahead. I'll even back you up on it. RDM can cap Haste. SCH cannot. RDM has access to powerful critical hit WSs. SCH does not. RDM has a job ability that improves accuracy. SCH does not. RDM has a wide variety of gear to choose.

I hope this differentiation continues. Scholar should continue to have to sub jobs that have more melee training then them in order to get access to weapon skills. Unlike Red Mage or White Mage, Scholar is more of a back line only job, whereas Red Mage and White Mage occasionally have to jump into the fray to deliver buffs, tend to wounds, or just plain mop up mobs.

If SE wants to throw out some nuke/enfeeble hybrids like Impact (just much more MP economical x.x), they're free to.

This is definitely a direction I hope SE takes. For Scholar, Helixes, and for Red Mage perhaps some new form of spell. Also, I'd like to see enhancing magic that helps these roles, perhaps the new enspells can do more then reduce magic evasion or whatever stat it was by a "whole" ten points. The mechanics are already there, like how T2 enspells affect some magic related stat, or how Sambas produce a debuff. Being able to land enfeebles easier, and do slightly more damage with nukes without just having to rely on an magic staffs would be a nice playstyle to explore for Red Mage, and fit a buffing role in a party.

If Haste can ever be AoE'd, for the small cost of 96s of strats, a SCH would be able to Haste 6 people for 6 minutes (something where, individually, we need a bunch of equipment to approach). Hell, they'd be able to do it cross-party once Haste goes off recast, too.

If Haste Cycles are a defining characteristic of Red Mage that would actually impede our popularity and desirability at 99 if other mages were to gain access to them, something is epic-tier wrong with the world.

For the time being, Haste is a major part of what Red Mage is, although not a unique one, but Red Mage is the best at Hasting the most people currently. While I'm not sure that giving Accession Haste to Scholar would stop them from trying to get Cure V, I do know it would have a major impact on the game. Thank goodness that SE isn't ever going to do this. Also, if your a Scholar that thinks this is a good idea in our current game environment, for the love of all things remotely sane, never produce any game.

The fact the playerbase limits the roles that a player can fill isn't somehow a reflection of how useful RDM or SCH can actually be. That's just for the purpose of easy categorization. Like I said, SCH is hurting right now primarily because we're actively trying to reduce the amount of people that have claim on lotting loot. That is totally different with the latest addition to the game, Voidwatch, where your chance at goodies won't be better just because you fight with less people and, in fact, alliance play is strongly encouraged.

Would half the complains from Scholar or Red Mage be on the forums if Voidwatch, not Abyssea was the main focus currently?

If your alliance has a primary healer and a primary nuker and has key support covered, and you've got a spot left and aren't sure whether you want additional healing or additional nuking, there is absolutely no reason SCH cannot take up that spot and grease the wheels even further by using their spells to make the other mages more efficient, which is really the purpose of enmity and weather spells, as well as supplement healing and nuking. I don't know about anybody else, but I never really believed the best way to play SCH was to decide, ahead of time, whether you wanted to imitate WHM or BLM today.

As for the criticism that SCH cannot react as immediately to a sudden situation, I for one have never had a problem where I wasn't able to save somebody from something just because of ability spam. Enlightenment is always readily available. And if you're having more emergencies than you can handle in 3 minutes and 45 seconds, I would think that's a bigger problem with the group than with the SCH.

This sums up a lot of my thoughts about the way Scholar works or should work. Wasn't a Scholar a supportive mage in the lore? It makes things favorable to the party, then proceeds to add extra magical damage or healing as the situation needs it. As a side thought, what would happen if Scholar could occasionally donate a particular stratagem effect to a party member?

-

For the direction I'd most like to see Red Mage go, is in addition to becoming a better buffer and enfeebler, Red Mage should be able to use these roles together. Wasn't the point of the Red Mage the fact that it can put both White and Black magic together into a combat role, like with enspells? I think there is a new set of hybrid magic that Red Mage could definitely be the unique source of.

[Covenant]

What would people do if "Haste" stop existing from today on? Haste whether a song or single cast has made players into zombie's. Go to bard forum...what do they want? The next haste song, scholar? haste AoE, RDM haste II?, summoner hastagaII?...blah, blah blah.

Unfortunately, SE keeps slapping this unto everything. Yes, I enjoy it as much as the next person, but its time to start thinking outside of the box. I want redmage and other jobs to have multi-buff and multi-debuff spells, even if it's at the same potency level. Imagine a spell that gives haste/refresh, or haste/phalanx in one shot. Or, how about my "murk" debuff that gives gravity/blind/slow?

[Supersun]

RDM haste II

I think I'm missing these topics where Rdms are begging for haste II.

[cidbahamut]

What would people do if "Haste" stop existing from today on? Haste whether a song or single cast has made players into zombie's. Go to bard forum...what do they want? The next haste song, scholar? haste AoE, RDM haste II?, summoner hastagaII?...blah, blah blah.

Don't kid yourself, it would just be replaced with an obsession over whatever the next most powerful stat happened to be in light of Haste's absence.