[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM

[Greatguardian]

I don't know what kind of update it is you think I actually want. The only thing I can give you is that I intend to use it, whatever form it may take.

I think you're under the impression that it matters to me one way or another what people want.

I addressed one single point, an important one for sure, but that point and that alone. I could care less what sort of update you want for Red Mage, or what other people want for it. You, and quite frankly some others as well, have simply asked that SE make a statement one way or another on what they want for Red Mage; Be it a pure Mage, or a Hybrid when they already have.

They have, straight up, said that Red Mage is a Mage class with specializations in Enhancing and Enfeebling. They have, straight up, said that they are not looking to improve Red Mage's swordplay, but those who are really into that sort of thing will probably benefit from the game-wide rework of pre-75 WS anyways.

I don't particularly care if you like it or not. But asking SE to put their foot down is ridiculous when they've made it abundantly clear that they absolutely do not want to make any sort of drastic adjustment to Red Mage's melee proficiency, and feel that they contribute much more to a group as a pure Caster.

[Supersun]

With the exception of a nuking party when do you need to actually refresh 5-6 people in the actual party? Are you like only using Blus and Drks because most DDs and support jobs don't really need the refresh?

And if you do I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least one other person in that party with /Rdm who could split it with you or take the load for himself if would be better for you to Wildfire spam when you aren't rolling.

[Greatguardian]

If we're talking about Refreshing your singular healer, I'm sure that would work out fine. I was simply pointing out the very real shortcomings of expecting Cor/Rdm to be able to Refresh people. They can do it, they just can't Refresh more than 3 at the absolute most.

It's also possible, depending on the exact adjustments to Evoker's Roll, that SMN/COR will be back on top in the group Refresh game. Diabolos's Favor plus subbed Evoker's isn't half bad, considering it rounds up rather than floors for whatever reason (Buff potency = COR level / Buff Receiver level, or 50% for fully leveled SJ rounded up for Evoker's). I'm not sure I'd ever sub COR on Red Mage though, so I'm not sure where the discussion even spawned from. Did they mean RDM + COR > COR/RDM? Two people are always better than one, etc.

[Economizer]

The answer there would be to refine RDM's roles, create an alternate spell for healing for RDM and SCH, and give WHM additional and class-inherent (because almost everything that contributes to MP efficacy on WHM comes from gear that enters the game very late in the leveling process) MP efficacy. Seeing that Refresh I and II are the most un-RDM things to ever exist, I wouldn't mind giving those to WHM as well. The only thing you'd be missing is convert, which is fixed at 80 when you sub RDM.

As much as White Mage would love Refresh II, it isn't the way the game is or should be. It has and always will be Red Mage's thing. I'll use some colorful language to illustrate. Red Mage wears a red hat with a feather in it that is very iconic of what its job is. Red Mage is the pimp of magic. If you want to be pimped up, you should have a Red Mage in your party too.

That said, I can understand where the feeling about Red Mage being a poor enhancer may be coming from. Red Mage can't exactly cast its most powerful buffs on allies. Two-three buffs does not a buffer make.

On more efficient cures, perhaps a spell that targets monsters and allies. On foes, it would be enfeebling magic, and set a debuff. When that foe attacks your ally, you then cast the spell on your friend, which in turn, cures them for a portion of the attack.

This might not be workable or balanced, but the example fits Red Mage in my opinion, because the concept of "Red Magic" in this game was that Red Mage, by knowing both White and Black magics, could combine the two, most notably into enspells. Because Red Mage knows both equally well, they understand how to fuse the two in harmony. This is the romance of a Red Mage, something bookish fools like Scholars could never understand, despite their bookish knowledge of bigger elemental damage spells, or debuff removal.

[Rayik]

On topic, as not to completely turn this thread into the melee thread again, I would like to see our enfeebling updated to where our enfeebles aren't completely useless on NM's, to the point where we have to resort to pretend-WHM status to be of any use to the party. It's been said before, but I don't think it can really be said enough; don't paint us as these uber-powerful enfeeblers, then make 90% of meaningful content immune to exactly what we're supposed to specialize in. I swear sometimes RDM is just SE's little *whipping boy job.


*I realize some other jobs have gotten the shaft from SE a lot more than RDM lately, but most of the time they aren't being shut out of doing exactly what they were advertised to do in the first place... "Here! Swing a sword and cast spells! Oh wait, no. Don't do that anymore. Here! enfeeble enemies! Render powerful NM's impotent with your enfeebling magic! No, nope, wait, can't let you do that either. Actually, here. Just cure and buff. There ya go."

[Supersun]

Will Massacre Elegy be added?

We have plans to. However, when considering the stats, we are planning to make it so this isn’t a song that can be used by just anyone.

Even though from the context of the conversation this probably means that Massacre Elegy is going to be on the 95 G Horn this pretty much stomps on Rdm being the best enfeebler. Doesn't matter how good Slow II is when Slow caps at 100% and massacre elegy is just that.

All that leaves us with is Paralyze II and crowd control spells. One of which is pretty much impossible to stick on anything worth while and the others are impossible to stick on anything worth while.

Is SE's vision for Rdm being the king of crowd control in a game where the norm is only fighting one monster at a time?

[Ketaru]

They're not immune, they just resist everything except for that one time the enfeeble will land just to prove the NM isn't outright immune.

That reminds me. A very, very long time ago, I once Silenced Hakutaku.

[Economizer]

All that leaves us with is Paralyze II and crowd control spells. One of which is pretty much impossible to stick on anything worth while and the others are impossible to stick on anything worth while.

Is SE's vision for Rdm being the king of crowd control in a game where the norm is only fighting one monster at a time?

If by crowd control spells you mean a crowd of thirty easy prey mobs attacking you, then yes, Red Mage is arguably the best, as it has Phalanx and Ice Spikes, in addition to some other tools.

But if you mean being able to Sleep and Break mobs, Scholar is better, since they can bust out a ton of strats and AOE their spells.

If it wasn't for Abyssea, Scholar would be the most popular mage job in most situations, as it has nukes almost as good as Black Mage, curing second only to White Mage, can keep itself fueled with MP, can sub Red Mage for most of its unique(ish) spells (and will eventually get Haste this way), can AOE most buffs, has a unique line of buffs and debuffs, minor enmity control, and more, with clear news of even more power in coming updates that is second only the Black Mage's.

Things would be much, much simpler for Red Mage if there was no Scholar to contend with to be honest. Having to deal with a swiss army knife job that performs better then you at pretty much every class role you have is a nightmare.

[Greatguardian]

Scholar suffers from some massive fundamental drawbacks in its strategem/Arts system that will always prevent it from being anything but second class. While they can excel when given a specific role for a fight, they will always be worse at that specific role than a more specialized class (With the exception of base crowd control, though Blue Mage is pretty boss at this too). Switching between Dark Arts and Light Arts on the fly is an absolute nightmare, and Scholar suffers severe penalties when attempting to be spontaneous and react to developments immediately. Scholar also suffered from a severe lack of fundamental spells, which the Devs have only recently started to remedy (sup Stoneskin/Blink).

Red Mage's strength, and a big part of why it is significantly stronger than Scholar in any practical situation, is its ability to cast any spell at any time and switch back and forth between offense and defense in a matter of seconds rather than minutes. Red Mage also has significant advantages over Scholar in terms of equipment availability that really serve to put it ahead in any head to head comparison.

[SpankWustler]

It's important to remember that applying one or more stratagems significantly slows down the coming spell. While not relevant for a planned AoE sleep/gravity or an Ebullience-ificated nuke, but it's a very important thing to consider when looking at most of what Scholar casts in Light Arts or an emergency crowd-control spell.

Switching Arts and using the corresponding Addendum isn't an instant affair, either. It's just one or two extra seconds and one Strategem charge, but that can be an eternity or one charge too many in some situations.

Also, saying a job is second in curing to White Mage is like saying Mars is the second most livable planet in our solar system. The statement is true, but good luck building a mountain retreat on Olympus Mons. Scholar and Red Mage are on pretty even keel as far as healing goes, with Scholar's only palpable advantage being native status cures rather than status cures from a support job. If that's even an advantage.