Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

[Insaniac]

The real issue here is that every job capable of physical damage output has had their potential significantly raised by either JTs or JAs or a combo of the 2. THF has gotten a level of DW surpassed by /nin (may not be the case at 99) and critical bonus. The balance gap that you are talking about has been widened to an unbalanced level. No one in this entire thread has asked for THF to be as powerful a DD as jobs who's only utility is dealing damage but something to give us a real reason to pull out our daggers other than pure boredom would be lovely.

[Byrth]

When I do the math on SA vs. Climactic Flourish, I get that SA is better pretty much all the time. I know I've done pretty significant Climactic Flourish'd Rudra's to stuff. So you wouldn't actually need a DD buff to make the idea I propose here viable. The problem is that you guys don't often get a chance to use the mechanics of your jobs, SA and TA. That problem would be taken care of by changing the TH system to what I described.

Fringe benefits:
1) As content gets outdated, THF max damage rises and drop rates effectively are increased.
2) Having relic/mythic/empyrean weapons primarily boost your single-hit SA/TA WS damage, which would also boost your Treasure Hunter through this system. Mandau > Thief's Knife. Heck, Oneiros Knife or X's Knife > Thief's Knife offhand.
3) People start playing with playstyle focused around THF mechanics. They actually set up SATAWS situations, because that gets the highest THF damage and the highest drop rate.
4) As long as you make it only spike damage that matters, THF doesn't become the only melee. Dragoon, for instance, would get a sideways HNM buff from this because Angon would be useful for improving THF damage. People will do anything in the pursuit of loot.

[Insaniac]

I think your idea could work to get THF more involved in the fights but only if it was a cumulative. I didn't see where you specify but I assume since you say "The highest tiers of TH would be unobtainable on anything notable." that you would want it to be based off of a single WS. No group of people I have ever played with would put forth the effort to set up perfect WS conditions for a THF more than twice in a fight. I think your idea is headed in the right direction but that alone wouldn't really make THF that much more fun to play in any real HNM/endgame situations.

[Yugl]

No one in this entire thread has asked for THF to be as powerful a DD as jobs who's only utility is dealing damage but something to give us a real reason to pull out our daggers other than pure boredom would be lovely.

That's exactly why you're going to keep complaining. Anything they give, that maintains less than suboptimal DD damage, will be underwhelming.

When I do the math on SA vs. Climactic Flourish, I get that SA is better pretty much all the time. I know I've done pretty significant Climactic Flourish'd Rudra's to stuff. So you wouldn't actually need a DD buff to make the idea I propose here viable. The problem is that you guys don't often get a chance to use the mechanics of your jobs, SA and TA. That problem would be taken care of by changing the TH system to what I described.

Fringe benefits:
1) As content gets outdated, THF max damage rises and drop rates effectively are increased.
2) Having relic/mythic/empyrean weapons primarily boost your single-hit SA/TA WS damage, which would also boost your Treasure Hunter through this system. Mandau > Thief's Knife. Heck, Oneiros Knife or X's Knife > Thief's Knife offhand.
3) People start playing with playstyle focused around THF mechanics. They actually set up SATAWS situations, because that gets the highest THF damage and the highest drop rate.
4) As long as you make it only spike damage that matters, THF doesn't become the only melee. Dragoon, for instance, would get a sideways HNM buff from this because Angon would be useful for improving THF damage. People will do anything in the pursuit of loot.

The two issues I see with your idea when looking at the complaints in this thread is that:
1. THF still remains nothing more than TH (Optimization on spike damage)
2. Against difficult foes, the value of maintaining a THF actually diminishes
3. That's not really a melee buff
4. Although you suggest spike damage wouldn't encourage "THF Only" when possible, it actually does because in situations where you can win while maintaining only THFs, you're better off solely using THF to increase drop rates. One, since THF spike damage is the only form of damage capable of imposing those TH bumps, you will want most or all of your spike damage to come from THFs. Two, having only THFs cuts down on the NoiseDOT:THSpike ratio, so you conserve HP for spike damage. Three, in grossly divergent situations (Behemoth, for example), THFs will actually be inclined to reduce their TP damage.

[Insaniac]

That's exactly why you're going to keep complaining. Anything they give, that maintains less than suboptimal DD damage, will be underwhelming.

THF has a ton of room to grow before it threatens to overtake the pure DD jobs. I don't think there has been a single suggestion in this thread that would bring THF even close to top tier DD damage and any one of them would make us happy.

[Yugl]

THF has a ton of room to grow before it threatens to overtake the pure DD jobs. I don't think there has been a single suggestion in this thread that would bring THF even close to top tier DD damage and any one of them would make us happy.

I don't know why you keep using terms such as "Top Tier DD" when the concern is whether they're even on par with suboptimal DDs. Using the examples posted earlier, one is an oddly placed enfeebling skill (Which goes with what I'm saying about taking THF away from the melee scene), one skill is potentially more powerful than Angon, Critical Evasion doesn't make much sense given that critical hit rate is a function of dDEX+Merits+Base+Gear, and the last deal with enmity, which is one of the major complaints about these updates. Also, I think you meant to say that the ideas make *you* happy.

[Karbuncle]

I don't know why you keep using terms such as "Top Tier DD" when the concern is whether they're even on par with suboptimal DDs. Using the examples posted earlier, one is an oddly placed enfeebling skill (Which goes with what I'm saying about taking THF away from the melee scene), one skill is potentially more powerful than Angon, Critical Evasion doesn't make much sense given that critical hit rate is a function of dDEX+Merits+Base+Gear, and the last deal with enmity, which is one of the major complaints about these updates. Also, I think you meant to say that the ideas make *you* happy.

On the critical hit Evasion part.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Oirandori - From what i understands, Its basically "Critical hit rate +x%" for people in range.


1) Enhances the Enfeeble of the target. COR can do this too with Quick shot, So its not far fetched to think THF could do something similar. Effects could stack for more bonus. It would give a THF meaning to the fight after the inflicted the mob with TH. Something that would enhance/help the party.

2) That Ability would also Stack with Angon, So it wouldn't outclass the DRG, because both effects would help greatly. It still would not create Zerg windows because most new mobs have immunity/build Immunity to stun and have very powerful AoEs that will wreck a group. SE has shown they can create mobs that aren't zerg Friendly (Damage absorbtion, Mobs like Rani (Charmga, Resistance building, Meteor every xxx%), Etc etc.

I think it would be another great tool for the job

3) The enmity ones I tried to make because i know its where SE wants THF. Which i don't mind if its done correctly. There should be a 50% Equivalant for both similar to Accomp/coll. But i think Accompl/those new ones should be lowered to 3 minutes. 5 minutes is way to restricting when it comes to an endgame fight.

[Zyla420]

Seriously... I don't even. I use THF all the damn time lol, how is it mediocre. Especially in Abyssea, you people act as if 90% of the game is outside of Abyssea, hint: its not. You don't even know what they are doing.

it's not inside abyssea that's the problem... as it's been said to death already, figured ya'll would get the hint already we're fine with abyssea. it's outside abyssea that is an issue, we don't want to see the days where we're hitting for 0-10 on hnm content. this will equate to us hitting the mob once then finding a corner to sit and cry in like we did years ago...

inside abyssea yea we're near godly, just like every other job but pld. outside abyssea thf is a mediocre dd at best with a shit ton of useless utility. you can sit here and argue all you like that i'm wrong, but when the vast majority of the thf community seem to share the same opinion that i do, that gives me the inclination that i'm correct sir.

[Byrth]

That's exactly why you're going to keep complaining. Anything they give, that maintains less than suboptimal DD damage, will be underwhelming.



The two issues I see with your idea when looking at the complaints in this thread is that:
1. THF still remains nothing more than TH (Optimization on spike damage)
2. Against difficult foes, the value of maintaining a THF actually diminishes
3. That's not really a melee buff
4. Although you suggest spike damage wouldn't encourage "THF Only" when possible, it actually does because in situations where you can win while maintaining only THFs, you're better off solely using THF to increase drop rates. One, since THF spike damage is the only form of damage capable of imposing those TH bumps, you will want most or all of your spike damage to come from THFs. Two, having only THFs cuts down on the NoiseDOT:THSpike ratio, so you conserve HP for spike damage. Three, in grossly divergent situations (Behemoth, for example), THFs will actually be inclined to reduce their TP damage.

Well:
1) I think that's fine. That's pretty blatantly SE's opinion of what THF should be. SE thinks THF = TH + whining
2) If you're fighting difficult foes, you want the drops that much more and it becomes harder to obtain higher and higher tiers of TH. The value of a good THF increases, the value of a THF mule decreases.
3) I didn't claim it was, and I didn't claim THF needs one.
4) In a certain sense that's true, but in a certain sense that's already true. CoP Dynamis monsters die so quickly that players should split up and take multiple monsters on the pull to avoid disengage/re-engage time wasted. As such, you should really be doing CoP Dynamis with nothing but a bunch of Thieves already. On things with big HP pools, I don't think it would take a THF very long to hit their "best tier" and people to just say, "Okay, trash it." The ranges I gave for that were pretty large. If a THF can take out 15% of an HNM's HP in a full-hits WS, it seems unlikely that they're going to be able to take out 20%. Or if something has 700 Defense, it seems unlikely THF could expect to better their best (on something with 700 Defense) by another 700 damage. Behemoth, for instance, would perhaps encourage the THF to lower their TP phase damage, but if they're aiming to do huge damage with their WSs then they only get a few shots anyway. It wouldn't slow down the fights that much, and I'd have to laugh at people doing Behemoth with a full alliance these days. Minor difference in playstyle. Two melee + mage vs. two melee + mage that are actually using SATA.

If you want to be more inclusive, you can have TH be determined by the total value of any skillchain including the THF, and added MB damage. People would start using, "I wanted the drop, but I didn't have 16 BLM friends to help me" as an excuse though.


Also, I don't really understand why you guys keep saying that people wouldn't accommodate the THF if this system was implemented. If being a THF (or seeing horrible TH4 Thieves get LS invites back in the day) has taught you anything at all, it should be that people will do ANYTHING to slightly increase their drop rates. If this change was implemented, the game would become THF mechanism centered overnight.

[Karbuncle]

And for the record, someone stating we wouldn't be happy with a small damage boost. If they gave us Dual Wield III~IV, and Maybe Triple Attack II (10%) I would be very much happy with it in terms of our "DD" boost.

As far as helping us with TH, I don't want it. If we get buffs at this point I'd like it to be away from TH. TH is fine as is, the only improvements i could think of is drastically raising the chance to upgrade TH with SA and TA.

If we're going to have to deal with being a TH whore, and Enmity controller, I'd like to expand on our Support role at this point. I don't mean buffs to our existing support, i mean adding more meaningful buffs that help the party as a whole.

I've already listed a few, and i can't think of more than those. They gave SCH Enmity+ and Enmity- Spells which in my mind quite literally contradicts the idea of THF controlling enmity, But at the same time it raises a good idea for some JA That fall right in line with SE's vision.

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Job Ability:
Prevents the Target from generating Enmity for a short period.
*Recast: 2minutes
*Duration: 15 Seconds
*Target will not generate any CE or VE for his actions for duration of the ability.

Job Ability:
Stops Enmity decay on Target for a short time
*Recast: 2minutes
*Duration: 30 Seconds
*Targets CE and VE will not drop during this period.

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How about some more fun gimmicky things?

Job Trait:
Increases success rate of Steal, Despoil, and Lock Picking
THF-20/40/60/80
*Increase Success rate of each by 5% per level.

Job Trait:
Increases Potency of Despoil Effects
THF:91/96
Increases Despoil Potency by 5% per effect per level. (this would go great with the despoil suggestions i listed pages back)

(This ones considering the suggestion i made a while back would come into the game)

Job Trait
Increases TP gain and damage of Steal and Mug.
*35/50/75/90
Increases TP Gain by 3, and Damage by 3%.
*More into this^. a THF's average dagger hit is about 5TP, Using Steal/Mug would give THF 5TP, at level 90 it would give 17TP. The timer i suggested be set at 1min(steal) and ~3min(Mug). The Damage of Steal/Mug would be modified by DEX. Similar to Jumps. (note THFs would still do much less damage than Jumps, due to low base weapon dmg)

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Some of these would help party situations, Some of them help our Damage a bit, i think it would help THF become a more defined role in group setting outside of simply "Making loot drop".