Scholar adjustments: Recall and Retrace

[thenewzero]

We're glad you're OK with it, because it's not going to happen. It would just be stealing more thunder from WHM and BLM with no real reason behind it whatsoever.

I was replying to the OP expressing that it's not exactly something important.

If you want me to reword it in a way that you might not find somehow personally offensive, I'll just say "Scholar should not get Retrace/Recall."

[Edyth]

My responses:

To the angry white mage and black mage players: Do you really feel that threatened that Scholars casting Retrace and Recall will make your jobs irrelevant?

To the angry Scholars: Why should I just parrot what every other Scholar is saying? All that stuff has been said and repeated endlessly and many things are inevitable, like Adloquium II and Cure V, in my opinion. Retrace and Recall are things I feel Scholars should have logically, but aren't inevitable because of spell-job trends.

To the people acting like transportation spells are exclusively white mage and black mage affairs: Dark Knight gets Tractor. Of all other magic users, it's Dark Knight that is casting a transportation spell. Preemptive strike on whiners: Yeah, it only works on dead players. So what? That is NOT relevant. That's as irrelevant as the fact that Retrace requires you to have a past nation of affiliation (so what?) or that Recall-Jugner requires the Jugner Gate Crystal (so what?).

To the ridiculous blue mage comment: no monster teleports itself to Whitegate. Blue mages use enemy abilities. Your...argument, if it can be called that, doesn't amount to anything other than fondling in the dark for self-righteous indignation at a logical request.

To the Yuke lover: there is a reason. It makes sense.

[Alhanelem]

I was replying to the OP expressing that it's not exactly something important.

If you want me to reword it in a way that you might not find somehow personally offensive, I'll just say "Scholar should not get Retrace/Recall."

I wasn't offended. I'm sorry if you were put off by how I worded my post.

[Meyi]

My responses:

To the angry white mage and black mage players: Do you really feel that threatened that Scholars casting Retrace and Recall will make your jobs irrelevant?

Yes. I really don't mind if scholars can retrace or recall themselves -- what other people can do on their own isn't a concern of mine -- but it's the principle of giving Scholar more things that had once been White Mage or Black Mage exclusive. I don't like the feeling of my toes being stepped on, that's all.

To the people acting like transportation spells are exclusively white mage and black mage affairs: Dark Knight gets Tractor. Of all other magic users, it's Dark Knight that is casting a transportation spell. Preemptive strike on whiners: Yeah, it only works on dead players. So what? That is NOT relevant. That's as irrelevant as the fact that Retrace requires you to have a past nation of affiliation (so what?) or that Recall-Jugner requires the Jugner Gate Crystal (so what?).

To the ridiculous blue mage comment: no monster teleports itself to Whitegate. Blue mages use enemy abilities. Your...argument, if it can be called that, doesn't amount to anything other than fondling in the dark for self-righteous indignation at a logical request.

I had forgotten that DRK also get Tractor. That is a good point. However, if anything, that proves that Dark Knight deserves Retrace and warp spells over Scholar because it already has access to one of those spells, while Scholar does not.

That point further continues to that, if Blue Mage is restricted by the lack of monsters having teleport-whitegate, then scholar is also restricted by the fact that it has no native understanding of teleports (crags still existed in the past, they were just closed off) or warp/warp II (home points also existed then). Scholar has no access to any transportation spell and therefore doesn't necessarily deserve the right to recall/retrace.

Edit: Completely off topic, but I was wondering why Alhanelem's personality was so familiar, and now I realize it's Tahn, haha.

[Yugl]

Why not go both directions?

In terms of level, not chronology, WHM has stolen Regen prowess from SCH. All mages have stolen Accession/Manifestation and Penury/Parsimony, which are SCH's best JA assets. Again, the former only appears irrelevant due to the chronology of SCH's emergence (WoTG rather than earlier).

Why shouldn't RDMs ask for that Regain Spell? Or WHM?

They can have the regain spell. It's shit.

Why shouldn't BLM ask for those Helix spells? Since, you know, they get a lot more DoT spells than SCH does, even at an earlier level.

At what point is the OP's argument that earlier acquisition of a type of spell demands superiority over competing classes over those type of spells? You're the only one coming up with these ridiculous arguments.

See the point?

If the point was to show that you're a moron, the point has been made loud and clear.

We don't ask for those spells (at least most sane WHM/RDM/BLMs) because we know that we don't want to take SCH's role away from them.

Oh ok, so the sum of your opinion on the matter is...

1. SCH's role is to regain (lol1TP/tick) and Helix (Same base damage as Aero II + Broken MV). Somehow, these roles are so important and valued that it would be just awful for WHM or BLM to obtain these abilities!
2. WHM's role is to recall and BLM's role is to D2 others. Well then!

Why are SCHs asking to take our roles away from us? Why do SCHs think they deserve to become the better healer than WHM, or better nuker than BLM? Heck, many deluded SCHs thought they were better nukers at 75, but only because they were comparing themselves to gimp BLMs >.>

SCH were considered better nukers because of MP longevity. How the hell did you not pick that up by now?

[Cymmina]

In terms of level, not chronology, WHM has stolen Regen prowess from SCH. All mages have stolen Accession/Manifestation and Penury/Parsimony, which are SCH's best JA assets. Again, the former only appears irrelevant due to the chronology of SCH's emergence (WoTG rather than earlier).

They can have the regain spell. It's shit.
At what point is the OP's argument that earlier acquisition of a type of spell demands superiority over competing classes over those type of spells? You're the only one coming up with these ridiculous arguments.
If the point was to show that you're a moron, the point has been made loud and clear.
Oh ok, so the sum of your opinion on the matter is...

1. SCH's role is to regain (lol1TP/tick) and Helix (Same base damage as Aero II + Broken MV). Somehow, these roles are so important and valued that it would be just awful for WHM or BLM to obtain these abilities!
2. WHM's role is to recall and BLM's role is to D2 others. Well then!
SCH were considered better nukers because of MP longevity. How the hell did you not pick that up by now?

Korpg has been an authoritative "expert" at all things SCH for years now /sarcasm.

What hurts SCH the more than anything is that they have no place in the game. Battles where they are considered an asset over other jobs don't exist anymore. In the past, Ouryu, Omega, and Ultima would have been ideal places for SCH to be a key member of a manaburn party, both as a buffer and in their own right as a nuker. We got the lovely Imminence stratagem at 87, but nowhere to use it. There's no strategy anymore, just put a bunch of melee jobs on it and stomp on it until it is dead. The WHM has infinite MP and can cure through all the TP spam.

SCH is the best crowd control job in the game, and we only get 2/4 of the "crowd control" spells (sleep and break, missing gravity and bind). On top of that, content like Dynamis, where they can disable large groups of mobs for as long as necessary, has been effectively deleted. There's always Dreamlands (and SCH is still fantastic there!), but I worry that is on the chopping block next.

Giving them Recall/Retrace will change nothing for the job.

[Saefinn]

My responses:

To the angry white mage and black mage players: Do you really feel that threatened that Scholars casting Retrace and Recall will make your jobs irrelevant?

To the angry Scholars: Why should I just parrot what every other Scholar is saying? All that stuff has been said and repeated endlessly and many things are inevitable, like Adloquium II and Cure V, in my opinion. Retrace and Recall are things I feel Scholars should have logically, but aren't inevitable because of spell-job trends.

To the people acting like transportation spells are exclusively white mage and black mage affairs: Dark Knight gets Tractor. Of all other magic users, it's Dark Knight that is casting a transportation spell. Preemptive strike on whiners: Yeah, it only works on dead players. So what? That is NOT relevant. That's as irrelevant as the fact that Retrace requires you to have a past nation of affiliation (so what?) or that Recall-Jugner requires the Jugner Gate Crystal (so what?).

To the ridiculous blue mage comment: no monster teleports itself to Whitegate. Blue mages use enemy abilities. Your...argument, if it can be called that, doesn't amount to anything other than fondling in the dark for self-righteous indignation at a logical request.

To the Yuke lover: there is a reason. It makes sense.

I respect your opinion. I think Recall and Retrace are less important for us, but you're welcome to disagree. Personally I'd prefer people to get into the mindset that SCH is its own job and not a combination of WHM and BLM or a RDM without a sword. I want our exclusives to be given the attention they deserve. I wouldn't complain if we got the spells, but I just don't think they're important enough.

[Alhanelem]

To me, giving SCH all these spells is a slippery slope toward just giving SCH all spells (That's another thing by the way, SCH doesn't learn AoE spells so why would they learn teleports?).

There's no good reason to put these spells on SCH other than "I want them." The last thing WHM and BLM need is SCH to take more of their spells.

[Airget]

the MV nerf was poorly done, they could have limited it to overlapping only 3 times rather then kill it's success rate. As for the meaning behind SCH. Adding recall and retrace wouldn't help SCH one bit and overall it's kind of pointless to add spells that in themselves aren't really that useful. It's kinda like asking SE to give PLD deodorize because it's a White Magic spell. Or maybe Repose would be a better example since it is a divine magic spell and the challenge could be DRK gets sleep! If you take a look at the manifest for BLM RDM WHM and SCH they are attempting to give them the defined role.

BLM is seen as the overall mega nuker and to support that they will add abilities that will almost make them as suicidal as a DRK in order to incrase their damage, however they still have the JA Enmity douse so even if say the new JA which sounds like it will increase MAG crit % and dmg but also give enmity + is used you'll be able to counter it's effect with enmity douse if you end up doing an obscene amount of damage while that JA is active. I kind of imagine that if the new JA is going to be the way it is, the main strat behind BLM is they'll have the JA active and focus on nuking during SC so there normal 1.5k MB turned into a 4k MB that draws hate towards them. I guess what they are going for is increased damage to conserve on MP but also a way to speed up the battle. Since SCH does have similar spells at it's disposal it's hard to really define them from BLM so in order to do that they have to define BLM by giving them abilities that support their elemental skills.

WHM is mainly seeing focus on being able to heal status ailments. Most likely since they have been given Cure VI we might not see any more single target cure spells. They are also trying to give them more support through the ability of lowering mag dmg taken which is always welcomed.

RDM is being focused more on enfeebling capabilities so it's very possible that they may be given JA or even 50+ trait that enhances their chances of landing an enfeeble against mobs with high resist. I guess a prime example of this is Yaguarogui a tiger NM is highly resistant to the enfeebling magic of para and para 2 even from a RDM with an insane enfeebling gear setup. However a simple NIN that only has capped ninjutsu skill can easily land jubaku:ichi on the same NM with no problem. It's this very example where I do see the need of enfeebling skill to be balanced better and I can see abilities being given to RDM to make them the prime enfeebler for high tiered NMs. As for the supportive side I'm not sure why they say RDM are the "enhancers" to an extent. The ones who should be the main enhancer should be WHM though I guess they do want to balance it a tad. Basically WHM is the cure/ailments, BLM is a nuker/??? and RDM is the enfeebler/enhancer.

Though I guess one would say in their bare form that's the vision for those 3 jobs, while sure they may have curative abilties, enhancements and enfeebling skill they want it so that the above is their most definitive trait that can't be overcome by other jobs.

Now one may wonder where this leaves SCH. We have the potential for strong cures through strategms but are still limited by Cure IV(which I don't see changing). We were given tier V elementals though this is most likely due to RDM getting IV and DRK getting III(Basically is one job was going to get a tier up then all three should get a tier up.)

While we have control of the weather and use of DoT known as helixes their roles in combat are limited by the nerfing of MV. Are defining ability are charges which allow use to customize the spell we cast to an extent as well as unique enhancements. Klimaform which allows us to which increases MAG ACC which is a good combo for enfeebles and possibly helixes. Though that magic spell will lose it's luster once it becomes a subbable magic.

Thinking about SCH they are a strategist concept at least based on what they have and the manifest that's what they are aiming for. the Regain 1 tick move is tad underwhelming perhaps a unique twist could be to make it work like the BRD relic where different effects are active based on if you are engaged or not. Basically when you engage the mob it grants 1TP a tick, however if you aren't engaged you'll be given 3tp a tick which would add an element of strategy for SCH allowing them to be more supportive to melee that have to stand back and wait to attack. Instead of making the regain spell static, make it more dynamic. engaged you get a 1/60 cap in the 3 minute period, unengaged you get 3/180 cap allowing you to engage and WS the mob at least once in that 3 minute time frame then only need a tad more to WS again which could alrdy be gained from the Ws's TP return. Basically every tick could determined if you are engaged or unengaged but the "cap" will be like x/60 x/180 so you get a tick 1 1 1 1 then you disengage and get 3 3 3 3 3 so at this point you'll have 9/60 27/180 duration of the ability. I"m pretty sure they would be able to code it so that each tick can easily define whether one is engaged or disngaged and at least make the spell a tad more useful rather then a ooh this one time I actually needed that extra 1 TP to WS.

Another point about the manifest though is we see tp diminishing and status enhancement duration being lowered. Since there are certain enhancements that can't be dispelled at times this would allow SCH to sign in those areas. A spell that comes to mind when I consider how SCH could work is they support through strategy and trumping the mobs moves making them unable to strike in the way they wish to. At least that's the impression I get from SE.

What just cam to mind as I was writing this is in the same manner that using a 2hr at the right time can lock AV's use of a 2hr, ina similar manner SCH can be given a "stun" like speed spell or a JA that can lock the mobs use of a TP move that it's readying. So like let's say Tonberyy readies "Everyone's Rancor" since I do think that takes time to ready a SCH could easily prevent the move and at the same time lock the enemies use from using it again for a certain duration. It would be a unique magic or JA that only SCH could use but it would support their ability to diminish a mobs threat without using enfeebles that already exist.

Another idea that comes to mind is creating a series of "enhancements" that only work when the player is enfeebled with a certain status ailment para/silence/bind etc.

Basic examples of what i'd like to call "Backfires"
Paralyze=Impulse (Increased att speed)
Blind=True sight (ACC + Crit hit rate+)
Silence=Voice of Gaia (MAG Crit rate + MAG ACC +)
Bind=Float(evasion + movement speed +)
Sleep=Insomnia (Attribute +)
Petrify=Golem (-dmg taken)

basic ideas but the general idea is these wouldn't replace WHM's status ailment but be a means of options if say the PLD was petrified cast Golem and now they can take less dmg rather then using stona. The way I would balance it is I would make the casting time the same as a -na spell but the recast would be like klimaform at 3 minutes. Which would mean that while these could be useful they wouldn't be a replacement for curing status ailments. I also think this would support what a SCH is suppose to be. They have a good grasp of the light and dark arts, so one would think that through studying both arts they discovered chants and rituals that could be used to counter a negative effect rather then cure it.

I just think if SCH was given an ability like that it would really allow them to have their own footing as a unique job rather then half a whm and blm. Another balance for the effect itself is that you could only have 1 backfire active at a time, so you can't get hit with bad breath and have the SCH cast all the spells on you since, while a backfire is active you are immune to that status ailment til it wears off.

Another neat thing about this concept is it would make a majority of the useless alchemy enfeeble drinks more useful. That's my suggestion(s) though, rather then ponder why SCH doesn't get certain spells it would be better to focus on what would make SCH a unique class that can stand on it's own. I would really like to have something close to the backfire concept allowing us to play the role of enhancer in a more unique way rather then piggybacking on already used enhancements.

[Raksha]

To me, giving SCH all these spells is a slippery slope toward just giving SCH all spells (That's another thing by the way, SCH doesn't learn AoE spells so why would they learn teleports?).

There's no good reason to put these spells on SCH other than "I want them." The last thing WHM and BLM need is SCH to take more of their spells.

Kinda like how SMN got Hastega and Stoneskinga and Phalanxga and shock spikesga?

That's just a slippery slope to giving SMN ga versions of every spell!

I like to call this the "Slippery Bullshit" argument.