Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

[Neisan_Quetz]

You haven't given a single example where summoner is viable outside the three situations listed.

[Byrth]

Then turn images off when you're in a place where you don't want people to see you're not doing work when you should be. Would be a lot simpler than adding 2384765 entries to your ad blocker.

I'm a graduate student, and I was in a holding pattern waiting for committee approval for a project for several months. I spent all the time reading papers, and now that I have my approval I just kind of read the stuff relevant to my subject that comes out.

Between doing things with my experiment, I do some non-work stuff. I work enough hours/days that people don't really hold it against me, and I've been getting results which gives me quite a bit of leeway. Some days are slow, and then sometimes I have three weeks of 12 hour days in a row.

[Greatguardian]

Edit: Crap, timeline no longer makes sense. This is directed at the Galka.

You're talking in circles again.

Is SMN an ideal choice? No. I'm glad we agree.

Are there situations where SMN is the most useful choice? Sure, Byrth listed them all already.

If you have WAR, and a DD is needed, and you choose to come SMN anyways, does that make SMN more viable? No. It just means you chose a less viable job because it's fun, something Byrth has already addressed.

Bottom Line: Can Summoner do things at a third-string level if the player is not total suck? Sure. Does SMN excel at any of these things? No way. Can SMN keep up with a specialized job in that job's role? No way. Are people going to want an awesome SMN instead of a total crap DRK? Definitely. Are people going to want an awesome player to come SMN instead of WAR? No way. There lies the conundrum. If a player is actually good and using SMN, then they have the potential to be even better using MNK, or WAR, or NIN, or whatnot.

Spare me the "It's my $12.95 and Smn is more fun and it's a game and elitist" comebacks because it's already been stated a dozen times that Smn can perform around par if played well and the player just likes the job more than anything else, and that's fine. It just doesn't mean that the player couldn't be performing even better on a more specialized job.

[Alhanelem]

You haven't given a single example where summoner is viable outside the three situations listed.

Summoner is viable for almost anything. Party support. Curing. Damage in any event. Kiting Soloing or lowmanning almost anything. It is purely the fault of the proc system why summoner is unwanted in Abyssea. You don't need it to proc, therefore it is not useful. In Abyssea, what you can proc is the beginning and end of any job's usefulness, with a few exceptions (e.g. WHM)

Bottom Line: Can Summoner do things at a third-string level if the player is not total suck? Sure.

SMN is not "third string" at anything, for any reason other than playerbase attitude. I will 100% agree that the player needs to know what he's doing, be well geared, and skilled in general for summoner to be effective. But this is becuase I consider the job one that requires this to be succesful at anything. It may not be number one, but it will work in a pinch. Not every group is going to have godly WARs and NINs to low man every NM in the game.

Most of the wanted uses for summoner which you listed do not require any thought or skill, just a couple button presses then you go AFK.

There are 20 jobs in the game. There are overlaps in roles. What you want to play should be what you play, and you should be accepted for any situationw here it is workable. It is elitism and only elitism that demands nothing but the most perfect setup for anything.

[Greatguardian]

Defining viable seems to be the problem.

Can Summoner do those things? Yes, by definition it can do them.

Can it do them well? This is subjective.

Can it do them as well as other jobs? Multipart answer:

Can SMN heal as well as a White mage, Red mage, or Scholar? No.

Can SMN support as well as a Corsair or Bard? No.

Can SMN deal damage as well as a Mnk, Nin, War, Pup, Sam, Drk, Drg, Thf, Rng, Dnc? No.

Therein lies the difference.

No one has ever questioned SMN's solo ability, however. That is definitely where they, and other hybrid jobs, shine. Put them in a group, however, and they will find it difficult to perform up to par in any particular group role (assuming Par is the level of performance of another job fit for said role).

Edit: Good god, stop comparing an Epic-tier SMN to a full Aurore crap-tier NIN. I swear to god it makes me want to pull my hair out. If you have an Epic-tier SMN, the only fair comparison is to an Epic-tier X, Y, and Z job. Period. If you are talking Hver/Nirvana SMN, then you compare it to Verethragna MNK, Ukonvasara WAR, Ryunohige DRG, etc etc etc. It is the most aggravating logical fallacy in the world to talk about how a SMN can be balls to the wall awesome and then say that "People can't always have good NINs and WARs to use instead". That doesn't say anything about the Summoner job. That says something about Al compared to Gimp #2343765.

[Alhanelem]

The whole strength of the job is its versatility. Other jobs have changed in popularity for similar reasons. PUP has become a very strong job over the last few updates for instance. But no one cares, because they aren't needed to proc NMs in abyssea and DDs are a dime a dozen, no matter how good they are. DRK isn't popular because it doesn't do as many weapons and its primary weapon has no good critical WS. There's nothing particularly dysfuncional about these jobs, they are just unwanted because of the current metagame.

In case you can't tell, I loathe the proc system because everyone wants more shinies, and thus they will use whatever method gets them the most. That means procing, and you only really need two jobs to do that, WAR and NIN (MNK can sitll cover almost everything, so it still gets used because it has amazing survivability in abyssea). SE revamps dynamis, adds procing. Fortunately, any job can proc in dynamis, so its not so bad there. SE adds voidwatch. Again, procs are added. I do not understand the voidwatch procs as well as Dynamis and Abyssea, though, so I don't know if this is a problem there or not.

But basically, the proc system in abyssea strongly discourages any strategy that doesn't involve having the couple key jobs needed to proc, no matter how good the other jobs are. Creativity is discouraged. Playing any job other than the best jobs for proc, or WHM, is discouraged. Damage you can deal is irrelevant. Party support capabiality is almost irrelevant. The only thing that matters is proc and dead it.

Edit: Good god, stop comparing an Epic-tier SMN to a full Aurore crap-tier NIN.

I'm not the one making direct job-to-job gear-to-gear comparisons. I never said that "Oh, with allt he best gear and skills is better than a BLM meleeing with a scythe naked" or anything like that; so I hope this stab isn't directed at me.

[Greatguardian]

WAR, NIN, and MNK are ... pretty much the strongest DDs in Abyssea, so good luck claiming you have a better DD that isn't being used because of the proc system. I mean, I understand your point, but it's not like SMN is some super-huge powerhouse that's being left out on the wayside because of the proc system. Every single job I mentioned above will handily out-damage a Summoner. Bard will do so as well, assuming they actually have gear for melee and Evisceration unlocked. White Mage will out-damage and out-last a Summoner melee'ing. Corsair will outdamage Summoner. RNG is probably the only job that SMN could reasonably keep up with, and only because they get screwed pretty hard with /ra delay and lack of Haste.

Versatility: Being able to perform multiple roles at once, all at a subpar / weaker level than other jobs. I can't deny that. Hey it's worked for RDM for years. They just don't get into a pissing contest any time someone asks them to utilize or focus on their non-DD roles.

Edit: You're talking about how SMN can "perform well", and saying in the same breath that "Not everyone has WARs or NINs that are actually good". Well here's the thing, performing "Well" is subjective. If you're performing worse than every other DD in the game would with the same resources, then you're not performing well. You're performing a lot worse than you could be. The difference is simply that you are associating "Winning the fight and not wiping, while doing damage safely" with performing well. You're saying (in previous posts) "Well I'm doing more damage than gimp Drks in Abyssea", as if that means anything about your performance at all.

Look, when you keep up with an intelligent Kannagi NIN, a Verethragna PUP, or a Twashtar DNC, we'll talk about performing well.

[Dallas]

Some responses for everyone:

BG note: If "old BG" is dead, why did a 5-year old drama thread get a spot in a sticky in new BG, and a special entry with a poorly crafted picture in BG wiki? "Old BG" is quite proud of the stain it has left behind, and that entity is fully represented in this thread.

Edit: Good god, stop comparing an Epic-tier SMN to a full Aurore crap-tier NIN. I swear to god it makes me want to pull my hair out. If you have an Epic-tier SMN, the only fair comparison is to an Epic-tier X, Y, and Z job. Period.

It's an interesting point. Sure, there's one guy who has to choose between 9 different emp weapons. The rest of us picked ONE job. Why should anyone ask an epic-tier anything to come as an aurore crap-tier anything? It doesn't happen in practice anyway. You only hear that stupid argument in a forum when someone picks an epic-tier mage job.

I will always be invited for my emp weapon SMN by every other emp weapon holder, if for no other reason than I helped them get their weapons.

BTW, I couldn't help but notice that Byrth (I think it was Byrth) forgot the #1 reason to have any hybrid job: versatility. He also forgot the #1 reason to have any pet job: crowd control. He also forgot the #1 reason to have a mage job: magic weaknesses. Byrth gave us 3 very specific uses for SMN. For a bonus point, name the only mob that can only be defeated if a specific job uses a specific ability, then name the job and ability.

[Greatguardian]

If you're only good at one job and the rest of your jobs are Aurore-tier crap, you're pretty much a crap player period. And no, it has nothing to do with being a mage. Epic-tier DDs get asked to come WHM plenty, when it's needed. Boohoo all you want about mage persecution, it's utter crap and you know it.

Btw, I couldn't help but notice that your versatility does nothing for you if you only utilize one role at a time. Healing? Yeah right. Support? Uh ... Stoneskin? Nice. Worth a support slot for sure. DD? Subpar compared to practically every other DD job in the game. Talk out your rump all you want, stack yourself up against any equally geared/skilled not-SMN and see how far behind you end up.

Versatility: Being able to claim the ability to perform in multiple roles, all of which are performed at a subpar level. Honestly, Summoner would get a lot more out of the "Versatility" argument if every SMN on the planet didn't have a stick up their rump in regards to casting Cure spells. Summoner is not the only versatile hybrid job in the game (Hi RDM), the Summoner community just made the mistake of refusing to perform half of their viable roles by being complete prudes about Healing. How well does the community receive Melee/DD-only RDMs? Yeah. Not so well.

And unless your SMN is rocking a worthwhile sleepga, your "Crowd Control" is limited to holding one mob at a time. That is not "Crowd Control", that is "One NM control". Congratulations on your brilliant NM holding prowess.

Summoner also can't intentionally trigger more than 1 magic weakness per element (T4 spells). Don't even try to pull that "Spirits can trigger Grellow herp" crap here. It's not worth anyone's time.

Oh yeah. And he already mentioned AV (and DM and other PD zergs). In fact, PD is one of SMN's biggest strengths. What a eye-opener you've given us, Dallas.

[TybudX]

Oh, I can't wait for this to be either a) Perfect Defense or b) some random shit quest/mission. Cause AV is a chump now, and three mage gate saiz hai /. JAs during storyline Does Not Count.