Unbalanced racial traits.

[Korpg]

I was saying that just because skill matters more than how much HP you have, does not mean that your HP is not significant.

People say "as taru you have to use skill and gear to make up for the lower hp". But you can just as easily use the same skill and gear on a galka which means you aren't making up for anything, it's still a disadvantage that cannot be overcome via skill, gear, merits, atma, etc.

And Galkas are in a disadvantage for being mages.

What's your point?

This "unbalanced racial traits" complaint is a cry for uniformity. Do we really want to all be the same, or do we want something different? Next thing is, the OP is going to complain that WARs and MNKs do a lot more damage than SAMs and DRKs, so SE better fix this "unbalanced job traits."

What is the point in having 20 different jobs when there are 4 different types of "jobs" a player can be: Physical damage dealer, Magical damage dealer, tank, and healer. Pet jobs are either physical damage dealers (DRG, BST, some PUPs, some SMNs) or magical damage dealers (some PUPs, some SMN), so they don't count as a separate "job."

Besides, when do you really see a Taru NIN get oneshotted from a spell or ability that doesn't also oneshot a Galka NIN? Same for PLD Tarus and Galkas.

[Bumbeen]

And Galkas are in a disadvantage for being mages.

What's your point?

But what's the point in having 5k HP when you never go below 3k HP when tanking?

My point was that you appeared to have missed the point of my post. I wasn't saying people should have 5k HP. I was saying that skill/gear/merits cannot make up for the HP discrepancies between the races in FFXI. I was not addressing you in my earlier post, just the idea that "skill/merit/atma is more important so taru hp doesn't matter" is correct, which it isn't. And the reason is because you can be galka and have the same skill/merit/atma that a taru has, so the problem still exists.

and for the record I think it should remain as is. If you want to play a tank class level an elv or a galka.

[scaevola]

Besides, when do you really see a Taru NIN get oneshotted from a spell or ability that doesn't also oneshot a Galka NIN? Same for PLD Tarus and Galkas.

One-shotting is the most extreme example of a larger problem. The most important aspect of both tanking and dealing damage is staying alive. Staying alive is binary; you live or you die. At any given time, there will be situations that bring you closer to dying. Usually, this will not be a single ability but rather a combination of mechanics designed specifically to kill you if not managed properly. The more health you have, the more leeway you and your partners get in navigating these combinations. If there is any situation in which, all things player-side being equal, a Galka would have an easier time living than a Taru, there is no comparison between the two. Let's examine a few of these potential situations.

-Caturae TP move/-aga combo
-holding Shinryu for procs
-any NM with gimmick spikes
-NMs with noteworthy Max HP Down mechanics like Bukhis or Briareus
-NMs with noteworthy (either especially strong or undispellable) DoT mechanics like Kukulkan
-NMs with severely jacked-up signature TP moves (Indrik, Glavoid (though in this case specifically a Taru NIN could safely count on Miga to beat Disgorge), maybe even Itzpapalotl)
-other NMs with high-level -agas that are either especially powerful or frequent (Fuath); I've seen Taru NIN/WARs get one-shot by -agas from Durinn/Dvalinn as the WHM was busy Erasing everything but MDef Down after Cackle, which would assuredly not kill a Galka NIN/WAR.

This doesn't even get out of Abyssea, when evidentally every Voidwatch NM above tier 1 has multiple shadow-stripping AoEs that will not-uncommonly kill Taru melee, but don't do enough damage to Galka to even force them to adjust their play (and subsequently compromise tanking/damage output) with a competent healer.

We could quite easily envision multiple situations in which Galka health saves the day.



EDIT: Oh, and also, to reiterate my first post, a big reason why this is a problem is that Galka are no longer at a significant disadvantage when playing mages, because the massive amounts of Refresh currently available coupled with Convert for all jobs mean Max MP, while not totally insignificant, is not nearly as relevant as Max HP.

[Korpg]

I could also quite easily envision multiple situations in which it doesn't matter if your max HP has 300 more than another tank, it all determines on the skill of both the tank AND the healer.

Usually, in my group, a taru NIN tanks. Does she die alot more than the other tank (hume NIN)? No, not really. Would an extra 300 hp helped save her? Depends if I'm the healer. And by how much overkill did the mob do to her. Or how fast the damage came. Or many other variables.

Which leads to my point. In most situations, 300 hp is not going to make a whole lot of difference between tank survival and tank defeat.

[scaevola]

I could also quite easily envision multiple situations in which it doesn't matter if your max HP has 300 more than another tank, it all determines on the skill of both the tank AND the healer.

1) Yes, I too can imagine many situations where 300 Max HP doesn't matter. Like....farming lights. Or perhaps killing Tier 1 NMs for seals! Unless it's something like Dvalinn or Blazing Eruca, that's, you know, actually capable of killing anyone ever.

2) again with the skill argument. That super skilled Stephen Hawking Taru NIN would be better off as a Galka, period. I mean, is your point that Taru NINs are more skilled than Galka NINs because Galka NINs don't need to be? That would be kind of a weird thing to say!

3) even if you were right, does it necessarily follow that Galka HP isn't a gamebreaking advantage just because it isn't necessarily gamebreaking in every single situation imaginable? I mean, I'd think it would be enough to say it makes a difference rather often!

Usually, in my group, a taru NIN tanks. Does she die alot more than the other tank (hume NIN)? No, not really. Would an extra 300 hp helped save her? Depends if I'm the healer. And by how much overkill did the mob do to her. Or how fast the damage came. Or many other variables.

Tell you what. You send me parses of all the times your Taru NIN has ever been killed, I'll determine how many of those were from hits of 300 or less, and you can tell me about how that doesn't matter.

Which leads to my point. In most situations, 300 hp is not going to make a whole lot of difference between tank survival and tank defeat.

It will make a difference in enough situations to be worth addressing.

It is a balance issue that affects the whole game. It was less of an issue when healers could conceivably run out of MP or pull aggro, but the current state of the game means that any mechanic that a Galka tank can't just shrug off means almost certain death for a Taru. I never cease to be amazed at the vigor with which people decry how easy this game is but fail to even consider what specific mechanics lead it to be that easy.

[Korpg]

1) Of course its the skill argument. A bad tank is going to die if they don't keep shadows up (or in case of PLDs, keep curing themselves, although who uses a PLD anyway?). A bad healer is going to run out of mp before the mob is dead, therefor going to wipe when the mob dies, but only if a bad tank keeps getting hit. A great tank can keep from getting hit most of the time without worry about losing hate (i.e. doing damage) or being a mp sponge (i.e. needing cure 5 all the time).

2) I guess I'm lucky. My WHM and NIN friends are very good, and they both take turns being WHM and NIN with each other. One is a taru, the other, hume. By your logic, the WHM must always be a taru and the hume must always be the NIN. I guess your WHM and tank isn't in the same caliber as my friends, so that might be true for yours.

3) I wish I could send you parses, but I don't take any. I don't need to take any because they rarely die, and the times they do is usually my fault (I take the blame for anything that goes wrong, including ruby kills).

4) What situations does 300 max hp make a difference between? If you say the difference between surviving a -ga, then why doesn't the tank have Shellra V on? Any "one-shot" TP moves can be taken care of by Migawhatever, and any melee hits that kills the tank is because of lack of cures. Those don't count because the tank didn't go from 100% HP to 0% HP in one shot.

Edit:
5) Again, there are ways around those "one-shot" TP moves. Migawhatever is a prime example. Also, if the healer gets aggro from an outside source, why are they fighting there anyway? It all leads to skill! Skill for the tank and healer isn't about how to keep shadows up or do a lot of damage or when to cure, it also has to do with placement of the mob, where to stand, and when to turn your back.

[scaevola]

1) Of course its the skill argument. A bad tank is going to die if they don't keep shadows up (or in case of PLDs, keep curing themselves, although who uses a PLD anyway?). A bad healer is going to run out of mp before the mob is dead, therefor going to wipe when the mob dies, but only if a bad tank keeps getting hit. A great tank can keep from getting hit most of the time without worry about losing hate (i.e. doing damage) or being a mp sponge (i.e. needing cure 5 all the time).

All. Taru. NINs. Regardless. Of. Skill. Would. Be. Better. Off. As. Galka. Refute this.

2) I guess I'm lucky. My WHM and NIN friends are very good, and they both take turns being WHM and NIN with each other. One is a taru, the other, hume. By your logic, the WHM must always be a taru and the hume must always be the NIN. I guess your WHM and tank isn't in the same caliber as my friends, so that might be true for yours.

No, it doesn't matter, because the game is easy. You might have a better time understanding what I'm saying if you stopped to consider why!

4) What situations does 300 max hp make a difference between? If you say the difference between surviving a -ga, then why doesn't the tank have Shellra V on?

For the, what, 5th time? If WHM weren't overpowered, the HP discrepancy would be less of an issue.

Any "one-shot" TP moves can be taken care of by Migawhatever,

one-minute cooldown

and any melee hits that kills the tank is because of lack of cures. Those don't count because the tank didn't go from 100% HP to 0% HP in one shot.

You are being deliberately obtuse. Why would it matter if it specifically comes from one hit or not? Is it not okay if, for the purposes of this dicussion, we could consider "one-shot" to be shorthand for "confluence of abilities that lead to the character's death in a short time before any healer can react"?

Again, there are ways around those "one-shot" TP moves. Migawhatever is a prime example. Also, if the healer gets aggro from an outside source, why are they fighting there anyway? It all leads to skill! Skill for the tank and healer isn't about how to keep shadows up or do a lot of damage or when to cure, it also has to do with placement of the mob, where to stand, and when to turn your back.

Or you could have a level 1 PUP/WHM with the Speed Shoes Kupower just kite everything to death, amirite?

Taru tanks have it harder than Galka. This matters, because for Tarus to be playable as tanks at all, incoming damage needs to be balanced around their pitiful HP, both regular/blinkable damage and high-damage hits that are potentially avoidable. Doing so means these mechanics become completely trivial for Galka and probably Elvaans as well. Can you honestly not see how that might contribute to how easy this game's become?

EDIT: I should give a bit more context on my position; I play a Hume and spend most of my time soloing stuff on DNC/NIN (Fuath's IMO probably my hardest solo kill to date, but I'm not sure how others would gauge that vs. the rest of what I've done). This has kind of given me perspective about both ends of the HP scale; there have been so, so, so many times I've either lived by a few hundred health until I can get my next Waltz off, or died by a few hundred. There is absolutely no question in my mind I'd die more often than I do if I were a Taru and live more often if I were a Galka; maybe not TOO much more often, but enough to gladly say I'd be the first in the door for a paid race change.

[Miiyo]

dat mod and call it a day or cut out a picture of a galka, cut out the head and tape it to your screen.

[Korpg]

All. Taru. NINs. Regardless. Of. Skill. Would. Be. Better. Off. As. Galka. Refute this.



No, it doesn't matter, because the game is easy. You might have a better time understanding what I'm saying if you stopped to consider why!



For the, what, 5th time? If WHM weren't overpowered, the HP discrepancy would be less of an issue.




one-minute cooldown



You are being deliberately obtuse. Why would it matter if it specifically comes from one hit or not? Is it not okay if, for the purposes of this dicussion, we could consider "one-shot" to be shorthand for "confluence of abilities that lead to the character's death in a short time before any healer can react"?



Or you could have a level 1 PUP/WHM with the Speed Shoes Kupower just kite everything to death, amirite?

Taru tanks have it harder than Galka. This matters, because for Tarus to be playable as tanks at all, incoming damage needs to be balanced around their pitiful HP, both regular/blinkable damage and high-damage hits that are potentially avoidable. Doing so means these mechanics become completely trivial for Galka and probably Elvaans as well. Can you honestly not see how that might contribute to how easy this game's become?

EDIT: I should give a bit more context on my position; I play a Hume and spend most of my time soloing stuff on DNC/NIN (Fuath's IMO probably my hardest solo kill to date, but I'm not sure how others would gauge that vs. the rest of what I've done). This has kind of given me perspective about both ends of the HP scale; there have been so, so, so many times I've either lived by a few hundred health until I can get my next Waltz off, or died by a few hundred. There is absolutely no question in my mind I'd die more often than I do if I were a Taru and live more often if I were a Galka; maybe not TOO much more often, but enough to gladly say I'd be the first in the door for a paid race change.

So, basically you are saying that we should either eliminate racial differences or have a race change service to suit different roles at different times?

In other words, become like WoW?

I know that people have been comparing this to WoW, but I think this game still has some distinct features that separate this game from the others, and you want to take that away.

Why not ask for all races to have the exact same stats regardless of job. Lets all have STR/DEX/AGI/VIT/INT/MND/CHR at 100 and HP/MP at 1000. That shows some real originally!

But thats besides the point. Skill does have an impact on doing your job. If you suck as a DD, you won't do that much damage. Most tarus out there can't nuke harder than me, although they have a lot more MP than me. Does that make them better mages? Probably not, can they nuke more than me? Yeah, but do they grasp the situation and can they adapt when needed? AKA can they stop nuking when the mob is whacking on them and hit Enmity Douse instead?

Besides, you are talking about a group setting. This game isn't just for the soloist, you have to rely on people too for some content.

Tarus and Galkas are great for cosmetic appeal, but at the end of the day its the skill of the player that determines how strong the group is.

Edit: Oh yeah, and my Taru friend would not be a Galka if you paid her 100 bucks to change. She wouldn't play as a Galka tank, and I seriously doubt she would play as her Hume hubby either. Would she be a better tank as a Galka NIN? No, because she would be unhappy and out of her style of play if she played a Galka. Race is nothing more than cosmetic appeal for players, and have some psychological effect on style of play.

[RAIST]

again.. your strategy goes a long way to mitigating the racial differences. Reducing the mobs TP gain, reducing critical damage, stunning, WHM curing to grant SS, or something simple as keeping a regen going with carbuncle can make a big difference in the long run. The little things done by the GROUP have a major affect on the outcome. If someone is not up to par, it can mean disaster.

As for solo....have to pick your targets and your setup more carefully. I've seen Berstuk eat a galka that got caught off-guard by waterja and couldn't stun it in time. I've seen a Taru just flat out rape that NM. It's more about knowing your target and being prepared for what it is capable of and having a plan in place to manage it.