Sentinel VS Last Resort

[Zagen]

WAR for one. Even though they share the majority of PLD's PDT/MDT selection of armors (like Valhalla, Metallon Mantle, Nierenschutz, etc.) there is one piece they can't wear: Creed Cuirass +2. At high enmity that body piece mitigates 10ish% dmg taken. No body piece WAR has access to can top that.

WAR PDT:
Balestarius -8%
Valhalla Helm -5%
Twilight Torque -5%
Grim Cuirass +1 - 6%
Melaco Mittens -3%
Metallon Mantle -4%
Nierenschutz -3%
Dst. Subligar +1 -3%
Jingang Greaves -3%
Dark Ring x2 -12%
-52%

That's 2% above the cap well 1%~ due to fractions either way WAR can reach the Cap.

WAR MDT:
Iron Ram Lance -10%
Valhalla Helm -5%
Twilight Torque -5%
Merman's Earring x2 -4%
Cor. Scale Mail +1 -4%
Coral Fng. Gnt. +1 -3%
Dark Ring x2 -12%
Nierenschutz -3%
Coral Cuisses +1 -3%
Askar Gambieras -2%
51%

1% Above or at MDT cap(not counting Aegis cap)

So again how does WAR not reach damage caps? Are these the most practical armor sets? Not really but then again neither is a full -PDT set on PLD.

Next up is DRG. Gear wise, they share most of the PDT/MDT gear too (minus valhalla). But Creed Cuirass +2 (and Valhalla) still puts PLD ahead.

DRG PDT:
Iron Ram Lance -10%
Darksteel Cap +1 -2%
Twilight Torque -5%
Colossus's Earring -1%
Gavial Mail +1 -4%
Melaco Mittens -3%
Dark Ring x2 -12%
Metallon Mantle -4%
Nierenschutz -3%
Gavial Cuisses +1-4%
Jingang Greaves -3%
51%

DRG MDT:
Iron Ram Lance -10%
Hydra Mask +1 -3%
Twilight Torque -5%
Merman's Earring x2 -4%
Cor. Scale Mail +1 -4%
Gavial Fng.Gnt. +1 -4%
Dark Ring x2 -12%
Colossus's Mantle -2%
Nierenschutz -3%
Coral Cuisses +1 -3%
Askar Gambieras -2%
52%

Again just like WAR not the best gear in the world but even DRG can get to -PDT/MDT caps.

Since the key to tanking currently is damage dealing and not mitigating it neither of these 2 jobs nor PLD "need" defensive JAs to tank.

Nice try though DRG had me worried until I remembered the Gavial/Hydra set.

Edit: the MDT sets are more for me wanting to see if the 2 jobs could reach -50% not that they need to I believe its -22% or -23% again depending on the fractioning of each gear and Shell V merits.

[Aeonk]

Gear sets

While items like the Iron Ram lance do help WAR and DRG hit the 50% cap, I left it out because it's impractical. Sacrificing TP to go defensive everytime the mob gets ready to do something nasty... you probably won't be tanking anyway so the whole point of the set is moot.

That said, you did prove that WAR and DRG can hit the respective caps. I'll give you credit for that. But that's where the JA's come into play. They're not needed, but they do technically disqualify WAR or DRG from being better at dmg mitigation than PLD.

I do agree with the point you're making though. PLD does desperately need some Offensive tweaks to have an easier time fitting in with the current trend of gameplay. I'm all for that, have been since I started posting here.

[Zagen]

While items like the Iron Ram lance do help WAR and DRG hit the 50% cap, I left it out because it's impractical. Sacrificing TP to go defensive everytime the mob gets ready to do something nasty... you probably won't be tanking anyway so the whole point of the set is moot.

That said, you did prove that WAR and DRG can hit the respective caps. I'll give you credit for that. But that's where the JA's come into play. They're not needed, but they do technically disqualify WAR or DRG from being better at dmg mitigation than PLD.

I do agree with the point you're making though. PLD does desperately need some Offensive tweaks to have an easier time fitting in with the current trend of gameplay. I'm all for that, have been since I started posting here.

Haha it was more "Oh you're challenging me eh!?" kinda moment, and then the MDT was "I wonder if they could hit 50%" moment, even though they only need about half that with a WHM (though I "think" -MDT caps at -25% for gear, I foreget since I don't leave home without a WHM on stuff that matters). Boring day at work after all

On my DD jobs when I tank, I actually use 0 -PDT/MDT gear most of the time and for the NMs I've fought with DD + WHM I've managed just fine (except that stupid Ranger Gigas for Bri pop KI, that sucker is random) There just isn't a "need" on many of the jobs because my WHM mule isn't running out of MP.

[Aeonk]

Haha it was more "Oh you're challenging me eh!?" kinda moment, and then the MDT was "I wonder if they could hit 50%" moment, even though they only need about half that with a WHM (though I "think" -MDT caps at -25% for gear, I foreget since I don't leave home without a WHM on stuff that matters). Boring day at work after all

On my DD jobs when I tank, I actually use 0 -PDT/MDT gear most of the time and for the NMs I've fought with DD + WHM I've managed just fine (except that stupid Ranger Gigas for Bri pop KI, that sucker is random) There just isn't a "need" on many of the jobs because my WHM mule isn't running out of MP.

Agreed. I keep enough MDT gear to cap on a macro and most of my PDT stuff on standby (unless I'm expecting near perma-stun/terror.) And that's more than enough in abyssea.
I'll admit, it's nice seeing someone else on the same wave length, rather than the same "raise PLD's hate cap" crap arguements.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Haha it was more "Oh you're challenging me eh!?" kinda moment, and then the MDT was "I wonder if they could hit 50%" moment, even though they only need about half that with a WHM (though I "think" -MDT caps at -25% for gear, I foreget since I don't leave home without a WHM on stuff that matters). Boring day at work after all

On my DD jobs when I tank, I actually use 0 -PDT/MDT gear most of the time and for the NMs I've fought with DD + WHM I've managed just fine (except that stupid Ranger Gigas for Bri pop KI, that sucker is random) There just isn't a "need" on many of the jobs because my WHM mule isn't running out of MP.

And that is the point in Abyssea WHM never does so it's irrelevant the DMG you take when they can heal you up, never take the hate or run out of MP.

But 99 is coming and Abyssea isn't being expanded on, so unless crazy ATMA comes outside or you have a RDM and BRD all the time the WHM WILL run out of MP. You wont have ridiculous HP, cruor buffs and so on so you can take the previously deadly moves like Spike Flail and laugh it off.

[Zagen]

And that is the point in Abyssea WHM never does so it's irrelevant the DMG you take when they can heal you up, never take the hate or run out of MP.

But 99 is coming and Abyssea isn't being expanded on, so unless crazy ATMA comes outside or you have a RDM and BRD all the time the WHM WILL run out of MP. You wont have ridiculous HP, cruor buffs and so on so you can take the previously deadly moves like Spike Flail and laugh it off.

DD + WHM + BRD/RDM = Abyssea style WHM + DD combo all over again. BRD/RDM with +2 legs and that ballad harp from AVNM can do 9MP/tick with Ballad2/3 + Refresh for 12MP/tick, this doesn't count the Refresh gear a WHM can get (off the top of my head, head +1, body +2, quest legs +1, Hands/Feet +1 for another +5mp/tick)

Lower HP isn't a "huge" concern it hasn't been for a few DD jobs (MNK/THF/NIN/DNC come to mind) they have either Subtle Blow, High Evasion, or ways to reduce TP gain of the monster to a controllable rate while still dealing damage.

Not only that but adding BRD buffs on the DD tank = faster kill. BRD debuffs help make for an easier kill as well unless they full on get resisted.

Also FYI unless Sentinel is up Spike Flail rips through a PLD's HP too.

Unless SE does something either be it nerfing DD's damage output on monsters in the future or upping PLD's damage potential PLD will be an inferior job that is used by personal job preference not superior tanking ability.

[Himrik]

Looking at the enmity table, there's a simple way of "nerfing" enmity without nerfing damage output.
Enmity gain via damage should take Max HP in factor, as enmity loss via damage do.

Against HNM with thousands of HP, DD's will gain less enmity when compared to JA or Curing

[Laciante]

While items like the Iron Ram lance do help WAR and DRG hit the 50% cap, I left it out because it's impractical. Sacrificing TP to go defensive every time the mob gets ready to do something nasty...

While swapping spears when you start taking lethal dmg isn't practical; using the IR Lance, or the Earth Magian spear later on, as your weapon when you expect to take damage is fully possible, as they have comparable dmg to other commonly used weapons of their level, so you won't be losing much DPS.

And my note about losing Provoke, in an earlier post was a joke, I know full well Provoke is not a necessity ;P