Raise the minimum allowable job level in Abyssea from 30 to 70+

[Starcade]

That's what you assume. I don't endorse his conduct. I think what he did was terrible. Just because you do something terrible doesn't mean he can't sing.

There are plenty of horrible hearted people who still have skills. He is one of them.

When I speak of his talent, I'm making an unbiased judgment on that talent.

When you say "he is a bad person so his music sucks too" that is a biased judgment, which is worthless.

You're enabling him by basically supporting his work. He is a bad person, so the very fact he even makes music at all (and that he is even allowed to) sucks.

I mean, that gets back to the comment I made to someone else: If one believes similar to how you believe, a case could be made for the very positive contributions of RMT, griefers, botters, Windower, etc.

[Bahamut_Norm]

I will admit that the learning curve may be more severe for them due to this, but this is irrelevant as the argument being made is to contest that Abyssea leeching breeds morons.

My concern is primarily game balance, not idiots, concern addressed by the title of the thread. If something makes a given aspect of the game easier or harder in some significant way, it affects balance, would you not agree?

If you want to get into this, I will admit that middle-ground players could stand to gain something from traditional parties, but I assert it is nowhere near necessary, nor will it have a hugely negative impact upon their overall performance, especially in the long run.

In the very long term no, it does not. But it's kind of a slippery slope until you're trying to assert that levels aren't at all relevant, and difficulty of that entire half of the game is unimportant. Is it by choice? Sure. But a lot of the older player base intentionally signed up for an extremely difficult game, and this change especially seems to be creating a great deal of grief for them. (I'd play more Demon's Souls, but I like difficulty, not masochism.) From what I've learned through observation so far is that it removes a great deal of challenge on a very large scale.

I'll admit it's easier for idiots to level. Yet at the same time it's easier for the smart players to gain levels as well.

I think that may actually be why. A significant portion of the older player base appreciated the level of difficulty and discouragement that separated people like that. It's a form of elitism, sure, but it was for a hard fought battle to prove yourself capable.

Maybe he's better at WHM than he was RDM, and quite possibly the only reason he leveled it was because of the ease and painlessness of leveling.

Oh sure, easier leveling is a perfectly good reason to go out and do something you wouldn't. But the whole point I'm trying to make is that it's so extremely disproportionately easy to leech in Abyssea versus all the other methods, and that's hitting the nail on the head with my point about balance.

We must have different ideas of what constitutes a gimp. I'm not speaking of an average or even somewhat below average player who may not know the formulas and may not know that certain drops even exist (I don't expect everyone to read as much as I do). I'm talking about the people who are frustratingly bad.

A fascinating linguistic problem! Different servers appear to have different definition of the word 'gimp'. On Bahamut it tends to be thrown around over the most trivial deficiencies. (Ah BG, where would we be without your rampant elitism?)

In this matter, however, I will refer to an above point: any reasonably intelligent person will still be able to pick up on these nuances even after burning to cap.

Sure, I made a few remarks about players who didn't learn from leveling, and largely, you're right about that, eventually average players will figure it out. It's the idea that some of these people go straight from being 99 into endgame without any of the other effort into skill development or practice that bothers me and probably many others.

I find literally zero challenge in beating up birds or crabs for hour on end. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way....

The time consuming nature of the act could easily be argued as part of the challenge, and a significant part of the game to the older player base.

...I also realize that the exp gained in that fashion does not compare to Abyssea leeching exp. I'm all for buffing the exp obtained from other areas, in whatever way(s) would work....

I have zero problem with people leveling the way they want to, and also have zero problem with making changes to enable these methods to being more equal. But the way I want to level is by leeching.

Which is the point I'm trying to make about game balance...effort != reward. Leeching gives so much reward to any other form of effort or time, that either other methods need to be increased to make the ratio par, or rewards for leeching should be decreased to make it proportional to it's effort. If you like leveling by leeching, then someone who kills mobs solo should get twice as much experience as you.

Furthermore, if you agree that Abyssea leeching is not the problem, you're agreeing that it's ultimately the idiots that are the problem.

Nope. Abyssea leeching isn't the problem. The reward disparity is. Idiots are just an unpleasant side effect.

[Cream_Soda]

You're enabling him by basically supporting his work. He is a bad person, so the very fact he even makes music at all (and that he is even allowed to) sucks.

I mean, that gets back to the comment I made to someone else: If one believes similar to how you believe, a case could be made for the very positive contributions of RMT, griefers, botters, Windower, etc.

Not at all, because every one of those things you listed has a direct effect on FFXI. Chris Brown beating Rhiana has 0 affect on his musical talent.

Totally unrelated. and if by supporting, you mean downloading his music and him getting nothing, then yes, I support him very much.

[Fiarlia]

By saying that, you endorse his conduct. His beating Rhianna ABSOLUTELY changed and invalidated ALL of his talent.

Incorrect. Talent is not an opinion. Perhaps how talented is, but that's different.

Somewhat related example: I hate country music. I find it annoying and I can't stand to listen to it. This does not make all country musicians bad. In fact, despite the fact that I can't stand the genre I do recognize that some of them are quite talented and creative, and very good at what they do. I still don't like it.

Talent is objective. The guy you are talking about can't suddenly not sing anymore. His vocal chords are still there and work exactly as they did before. Now, they guy himself is a douche. And I fully understand not supporting him and refusing to buy his stuff or even listen to it because of his actions. In fact I'd say you'd be right to do so. But despite how much you hate him, and his actions, it does not take away from his ability to sing. Perhaps his ability to stay famous and keep making money, yes, if enough people boycott him or he gets too much bad PR.

If it turns out that some document that's verified to be true and legitimate gets discovered exposing Beethoven or Bach as anti-semites, does this suddenly mean that all their music is horrible and invalidate everything their music has done for the world? All the inspiration they've provided genuine, good (as in good people) artists and/or bands, everything they unintentionally helped create over history, and the people they inspired to go on and make other beautiful and touching music should all be regarded as horrible trash that doesn't deserve to be sold, or put in movies, or ringtones, or games any longer?

[Starcade]

Not at all, because every one of those things you listed has a direct effect on FFXI. Chris Brown beating Rhiana has 0 affect on his musical talent.

Totally unrelated. and if by supporting, you mean downloading his music and him getting nothing, then yes, I support him very much.

Then you're clearly enabling him, and, hence, no longer worthy of my time.

[Starcade]

Incorrect. Talent is not an opinion. Perhaps how talented is, but that's different.

I disagree with that entirely. It's kind of the matter of one person's garbage being another person's treasure.

Talent is entirely an opinion, be it music, acting, sports, FFXI, or whatever.

If it turns out that some document that's verified to be true and legitimate gets discovered exposing Beethoven or Bach as anti-semites, does this suddenly mean that all their music is horrible and invalidate everything their music has done for the world? All the inspiration they've provided genuine, good (as in good people) artists and/or bands, everything they unintentionally helped create over history, and the people they inspired to go on and make other beautiful and touching music should all be regarded as horrible trash that doesn't deserve to be sold, or put in movies, or ringtones, or games any longer?

I don't think you want my answer to that. I once read someone's Twitter account who basically called on all who read her account to support Planned Parenthood because of the government cutting funding to it.

A couple days later, she found out who was behind PP, and, hence, was forced to invalidate that stand because of the people behind it.

Yes, that degree of repulsion would invalidate it, yes.

[Cream_Soda]

Then you're clearly enabling him, and, hence, no longer worthy of my time.

Biased opinions are like biased news sources, worthless.

[Fiarlia]

I disagree with that entirely. It's kind of the matter of one person's garbage being another person's treasure.

Talent is entirely an opinion, be it music, acting, sports, FFXI, or whatever.



I don't think you want my answer to that. I once read someone's Twitter account who basically called on all who read her account to support Planned Parenthood because of the government cutting funding to it.

A couple days later, she found out who was behind PP, and, hence, was forced to invalidate that stand because of the people behind it.

Yes, that degree of repulsion would invalidate it, yes.

Is the Pope completely worthless (as a person and religious figure, not asking about personal beliefs in the slightest, and don't care to know)? Crusades and all.

[Randwolf]

Is the Pope completely worthless (as a person and religious figure, not asking about personal beliefs in the slightest, and don't care to know)? Crusades and all.

The Pope is really old but I don't think he was around for the Crusades.

[Fiarlia]

The Pope is really old but I don't think he was around for the Crusades.

And the people that Beethoven and Bach inspired would have had zero to do with their views, but it counts cuz Starcade said so!