Raise the minimum allowable job level in Abyssea from 30 to 70+

[Fiarlia]

I agree, to this much, to an extent. Someone who's chronically on one extreme end of the spectrum will likely stay there. However, people are not made of extremes.

I tried to clarify this in my followup post. In the context of this debate, I'm grouping anybody not on the extreme end of stupid in the "smart" category. But I still don't believe that the middle-ground people need to level the old fashioned way in order to learn their job and apply themselves. I will admit that the learning curve may be more severe for them due to this, but this is irrelevant as the argument being made is to contest that Abyssea leeching breeds morons. If you want to get into this, I will admit that middle-ground players could stand to gain something from traditional parties, but I assert it is nowhere near necessary, nor will it have a hugely negative impact upon their overall performance, especially in the long run.

This is where we diverge. The real issue up for debate that I and obviously others strongly believe (and I realize this is a subjective personal belief that neither of us can provide any evidence for) that the current situation is much more conducive to, well, the furtherance of idiots.

I'll admit it's easier for idiots to level. Yet at the same time it's easier for the smart players (again, in the context of this argument I include average and even slightly below average in the smart category, because it applies to these people just as much as the well above average players) to gain levels as well. For example, there's many derps that have a bunch of levels that were easily obtained. But now that awesome RDM you know has leveled WHM too, and possibly even a DD job if mostly mage-oriented people in your linkshell (hypothetical) are on. Maybe he's better at WHM than he was RDM, and quite possibly the only reason he leveled it was because of the ease and painlessness (subjective, I'll admit, but there are obviously people who feel/felt this way) of leveling.

You cannot seriously try and tell me that practice of leveling does not have some positive impact in the development of skill in an averagely skilled player. You just can't, it assumes people are incapable of learning.

I admitted to this above. I will concede that it can help to an extent to the average player. But you cannot tell me that not having this experience will have a permanent negative effect on the same player. An average player should, reasonably, be able to learn and adapt, through whatever means he or she chooses, regardless of the trip that got them to max level.

Furthermore, do not even dare attempt a package-deal fallacy here. Just because some gimps will always be gimps does not mean that adjustments to game balance and difficulty encouraging players to develop skill has no impact on any of them.

We must have different ideas of what constitutes a gimp. I'm not speaking of an average or even somewhat below average player who may not know the formulas and may not know that certain drops even exist (I don't expect everyone to read as much as I do). I'm talking about the people who are frustratingly bad, and either don't care that they are, make up an excuse as to why they are (such as not being able to make gil, when simple improvements could be made for less than 100k), or think that they're right, and that full teal is super awesome for nuking, or who wear STR backs on a mage job, or who fulltime dual Balance Rings and then defend their gear vehemently. The people who absolutely will not change. These are the gimps I'm referring to, and the statement stands.

Again, another bunch of fallacies. No, jobs themselves are not hard. Situations in which skill is required to play said jobs correctly can be hard. Practice improves this skill level in reasonably skilled players. Are you trying to tell me that there is nothing to be gained from practice?

Depends on the person and the job. Have any casting job that occasionally (or constantly) gets hate? You'll likely already know how to time spells between mob swings, be it for shadows, sleeps, binds, gravity, or whatever. Been a mage or a tank? You'll likely understand the value of ensuring monsters stay off the mages, though the applications of how you'd pull hate back may differ from job to job. Auto-attacking is pointless to discuss. If you're any of the higher end DD's, you'll likely understand how hate works. It's not like playing a job will only get you experience and knowledge for just that job. Many skills (player skills, not character skills) carry over, overlap or just plain become apparent by having played the game at all in any reasonably intelligent fashion. I will, however, admit that some subtleties can only be gleaned from first hand experience. In this matter, however, I will refer to an above point: any reasonably intelligent person will still be able to pick up on these nuances even after burning to cap.

Then why even play the game at that point? What would said player even be seeking to accomplish? Compare;

I got my PLD to 99, hooray!

To:

There, I finally leeched PLD to 99. Now I'll do BLM.

Doesn't sound very rewarding, does it? Why even bother making it a game? Seriously, this isn't a rhetorical question. Why play a game if you don't actually want to be challenged on some level? Guitar hero wouldn't be popular if you could win just by pushing the start button.

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Sure, it doesn't remove all challange from the game, but you sure can't deny it removes a portion of it. The significance, being very relative person to person.

I've done enough jobs to cap the traditional way. The only challenge to me is getting parties together with good players and hoping to find an open camp. I enjoy endgame activities, but the old way of leveling, were it the only option for leveling, is simply unappealing to me. I find literally zero challenge in beating up birds or crabs for hour on end. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. However, I also acknowledge that there are many who do not feel this way, and would prefer to level the old fashioned way. I have no problem with this, and I don't think anyone does. If someone wants to go level that way, have at it. I also realize that the exp gained in that fashion does not compare to Abyssea leeching exp. I'm all for buffing the exp obtained from other areas, in whatever way(s) would work. Make mobs give more exp (again)? Cool. Extend chain timers to make it easier to maintain chain and get more exp? Awesome. Drop the mob level requirement for getting chains in the first place (to Decent Challenge and above)? Sounds good to me. Buff FoV exp rewards (regardless of whether they touch Tabs/Gil)? I'm all for it. I have zero problem with people leveling the way they want to, and also have zero problem with making changes to enable these methods to being more equal. But the way I want to level is by leeching. And what irritates me is the people who campaign and bitch to take that ability away. Make it fair to everyone, that's the way it should be anyway. Obviously there's enough support to warrant a retooling of old-style exp.

Correct, Abyssea leeching is not the problem. The imbalance it creates is. Trust is totally irrelevant to my point.

I don't see it creating an imbalance. There's just as many idiots playing now as there were years ago. And it is relevant, since if there is any imbalance, nobody is making you participate with these people anyway. It's like the people who bitch about being /checked and refuse to turn on the filter... if you think it's that big of a problem.. filter it out. Getting yourself a group of trusted friends will effectively reduce any interactions with the stupids of the game to a very minimal amount. Don't join an Abyssea /shout exp group that's going for 18, go get a few friends, like maybe 5, and have yourself a single exp party. Despite the huge desire and trend to do exp alliances, I can assure you it's not needed. My group that goes on Sundays only has 3 people actively killing the mobs.

Furthermore, if you agree that Abyssea leeching is not the problem, you're agreeing that it's ultimately the idiots that are the problem. Where we differ is whether there is an imbalance created by by the idiots because of the leeching. Regardless of which one of us is right, the problem itself still lies with the idiots, not the leeching. Simply cut out the problem (the idiots) from your gaming experience and it honestly doesn't matter which one of us is right. Even if you are right, and there's suddenly more idiots than there used to be, so what? Don't play with them and the problem is solved.

[Bahamut_Norm]

I will admit that the learning curve may be more severe for them due to this, but this is irrelevant as the argument being made is to contest that Abyssea leeching breeds morons.

My concern is primarily game balance, not idiots, concern addressed by the title of the thread. If something makes a given aspect of the game easier or harder in some significant way, it affects balance, would you not agree?

If you want to get into this, I will admit that middle-ground players could stand to gain something from traditional parties, but I assert it is nowhere near necessary, nor will it have a hugely negative impact upon their overall performance, especially in the long run.

In the very long term no, it does not. But it's kind of a slippery slope until you're trying to assert that levels aren't at all relevant, and difficulty of that entire half of the game is unimportant. Is it by choice? Sure. But a lot of the older player base intentionally signed up for an extremely difficult game, and this change especially seems to be creating a great deal of grief for them. (I'd play more Demon's Souls, but I like difficulty, not masochism.) From what I've learned through observation so far is that it removes a great deal of challenge on a very large scale.

I'll admit it's easier for idiots to level. Yet at the same time it's easier for the smart players to gain levels as well.

I think that may actually be why. A significant portion of the older player base appreciated the level of difficulty and discouragement that separated people like that. It's a form of elitism, sure, but it was for a hard fought battle to prove yourself capable.

Maybe he's better at WHM than he was RDM, and quite possibly the only reason he leveled it was because of the ease and painlessness of leveling.

Oh sure, easier leveling is a perfectly good reason to go out and do something you wouldn't. But the whole point I'm trying to make is that it's so extremely disproportionately easy to leech in Abyssea versus all the other methods, and that's hitting the nail on the head with my point about balance.

We must have different ideas of what constitutes a gimp. I'm not speaking of an average or even somewhat below average player who may not know the formulas and may not know that certain drops even exist (I don't expect everyone to read as much as I do). I'm talking about the people who are frustratingly bad.

A fascinating linguistic problem! Different servers appear to have different definition of the word 'gimp'. On Bahamut it tends to be thrown around over the most trivial deficiencies. (Ah BG, where would we be without your rampant elitism?)

In this matter, however, I will refer to an above point: any reasonably intelligent person will still be able to pick up on these nuances even after burning to cap.

Sure, I made a few remarks about players who didn't learn from leveling, and largely, you're right about that, eventually average players will figure it out. It's the idea that some of these people go straight from being 99 into endgame without any of the other effort into skill development or practice that bothers me and probably many others.

I find literally zero challenge in beating up birds or crabs for hour on end. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way....

The time consuming nature of the act could easily be argued as part of the challenge, and a significant part of the game to the older player base.

...I also realize that the exp gained in that fashion does not compare to Abyssea leeching exp. I'm all for buffing the exp obtained from other areas, in whatever way(s) would work....

I have zero problem with people leveling the way they want to, and also have zero problem with making changes to enable these methods to being more equal. But the way I want to level is by leeching.

Which is the point I'm trying to make about game balance...effort != reward. Leeching gives so much reward to any other form of effort or time, that either other methods need to be increased to make the ratio par, or rewards for leeching should be decreased to make it proportional to it's effort. If you like leveling by leeching, then someone who kills mobs solo should get twice as much experience as you.

Furthermore, if you agree that Abyssea leeching is not the problem, you're agreeing that it's ultimately the idiots that are the problem.

Nope. Abyssea leeching isn't the problem. The reward disparity is. Idiots are just an unpleasant side effect.