Just Got Deluxe Animator! It sucks...

[Karbuncle]

There's alot of "facts" on the boards as a whole that are simply someone's opinion based on personal observation... or even worse an opinion based on other's observations. There's actually a thread right now talking about how paladin always sucked as a tank; if that's the case why did everyone go for 7 years looking for paladin OR ninja (and war at low levels) to tank when building parties? Strange how "always" is never longer than the last 3 months.

AANNYYWWAAYY... The guy who said there's probably some other hidden effect on this thing-we hope there is, but there's nothing to back up that hope. We base it on the +1 does more than we so far know about this. If it is a sidegrade to the +1 it should do more to be a legitimate comparable item, don't mean it is. Having only the turbo I'll probably get this item because for me it is an upgrade.

As to the opinion about the Animators, response times, tactical processor and the like. Some people have done some testing, but how reliable are their tests? Do we know their raw data? Their methodology? What effect random elements in the game have on performance? Face it, we've all gotten our asses handed to us at 1 time or another in a fight our level/skill/build shows we should have won; random, extraneous factors do have an effect. So, I take it all with a grain of salt. The only thing to take for sure is a straight, unequivocal statement from a developer that "x does this", everything else is at best a probably.

Its all about the Context of his post.

This is why i responded to him. He accused someone of being an Account buyer for believing old tests, while providing no evidence. If he had come and said "Hey, I Think they do more than we know, i can't prove it, But it feels like it" instead of basically saying "You're all idiots and account buyers for not knowing this 100% Fact i can't provide evidence for" I would not have asked for proof, because it is most clearly an opinion that warrants further testing (Of which i plan to do when i get mine)

I trust tests from 2005 BG more than i trust someone saying "it just works cause i say so, You guys are account buyers if you can't see that".

I won't say the old tests are 100% Accurate, but they provide at least data/tests to the best ability of the people who attempted to verify and tests these things. He has not.

I'm not saying it would be amazing if there were actual differences in "performance" based on the Animator, I only ask that if he's going to come here, call us idiots/account buyers for "not knowing", that he simply provide proof for such a Bold claim.

I do not see this as an unreasonable expectation of people.

If you however feel the tests done so long ago are inaccurate (which they may be), I will gladly accept tests from you as well regarding the matter. I know once i have obtained the Deluxe Animator, I will be running tests myself.

That way we'll know one way or the other, Or at least, I will. I'll probably test basic things, and then try moving to more advanced things.

Regardless, the Solution lies in further testing, not slanderous name calling, accusations, and "Faith".

[Glamdring]

nope, I wasn't arguing, simply stating that pretty much anything that doesn't come directly from a developer's mouth/keyboard is still opinion, or a possibly innaccurate test. The results might actually be "dead-on balls accurate", I didn't do them and don't see enough data to say 1 way or the other.

The point was that when you come down to it precious little of the "facts" out there about this game are facts, most are anecdotal opinions. I can state my opinion that my turbo animator-while an upgrade over the level 1-does nothing to improve my auto's speed, but I ask it not be taken as a fact. I didn't show any hard data, I did no objective, scientific testing, none of that, it is simply my observation that my auto seems to act and react at the same speed it always did. Opinion, not fact.

[Karbuncle]

nope, I wasn't arguing, simply stating that pretty much anything that doesn't come directly from a developer's mouth/keyboard is still opinion, or a possibly innaccurate test. The results might actually be "dead-on balls accurate", I didn't do them and don't see enough data to say 1 way or the other.

The point was that when you come down to it precious little of the "facts" out there about this game are facts, most are anecdotal opinions. I can state my opinion that my turbo animator-while an upgrade over the level 1-does nothing to improve my auto's speed, but I ask it not be taken as a fact. I didn't show any hard data, I did no objective, scientific testing, none of that, it is simply my observation that my auto seems to act and react at the same speed it always did. Opinion, not fact.

I edited it a few times, But yah. I agree that it needs more testing, However, Its how he "presented" his opinion that warranted my response.

[Dfoley]

I don't troll... never have, never will. Only stating the facts. It appears that you are so out of touch with this job that you can't tell the difference between animators and your automaton's performance.. are you sure you didn't buy your account or something? Perhaps a change in careers is something that you'd benefit from... dunno... i'm just say'in.

I agree with karb and glam... lets see some tests.

We asked in the last thread you stated this, and you never gave any example or testable piece of data.


If you claim there is a difference between them, I am fine with that, but clearly state it in a testable mannor.

AKA I think the responce time from animator > turbo > +1 > deluxe gets samller and smaller for X attachment:
IE economizer goes from 3 minute recast to 1 minute recase
Strobe recast time is reduced
Strobe adds more hate
Nukes do more damage/recast faster/lowers global recast
Deploying with wind manuevers up causes it to barrage after 5 seconds ->3 seconds

Give us something to test instead of calling your 'feelings' a 'known fact' and accusing us of buying accounts because we dont agree with your oppinion that you have failed in two threads and MULTIPLE POSTS to explain.

[Anza]

Trying to get past this silly discussion of "response times" (prove it does something or be quiet, I think the reasonable position is general knowledge to most PUPs: Animator descriptions are meaningless fluff text)...

Anyway, putting things back on track, I'd like to highlight that additional DEX+2 on the Deluxe Animator may or may not be giving you any benefit at all over Animator+1 (or even Turbo Animator). Possible DEX benefits:

1) WS mod
No H2H WS you're going to be using at high level has a DEX mod, so this isn't relevant to us.

2) Acc:
If you're not capped, 2DEX=1Acc. But in today's FFXI, you're probably capped on a lot of stuff. So maybe this benefits you in Voidwatch, some particularly difficult NMs, or maybe in some future content... but normal 75cap world content and stuff in Abyssea with Atma/Cruor buffs, you're probably getting no benefit here.

3) Crit rate:
Again, you might already be capped on dDEX (function of player DEX to mob AGI), especially in Abyssea with Razed Ruins and Cruor buffs, and with PUP's naturally high DEX (tied for 2nd among all jobs) to boot. I'm not sure whether/how the May updates have affected that cap though, so there's possibly more to this discussion (note that dDEX cap is NOT the same as overall crit rate cap and had its own cap in the past, it's just one component of overall crit rate, along with crit+ gear, merits, atma, Rogue's Roll, etc). If you AREN'T capped on dDEX, 2DEX might push you to a higher crit rate (between 0.25-1% crit rate per point of DEX depending on where on the dDEX exponential curve you are).

4) Overload rate:
Only mentioning this to be complete, and to note how much of a non-issue overloading on Thunder Maneuvers is. I think I have more DEX than my automaton naked (and once you have more DEX than the puppet adding even more adds nothing for overload purposes), and who's really spamming Thunder anyway? Plus, between Cirque body, AF gloves, and Buffoon's Collar, that's even less chance of overload. 2 DEX is not going to make any difference on this point.

CONCLUSION
If you're capped Acc and dDEX (a likely scenario in Abyssea with RR), DEX+2 does approximately nothing for you. Pet HP/MP on Animator+1 certainly wins in that case since at least it's something. If not capped Acc/dDEX, 2 more DEX will give you minor benefit that may be more useful than pet HP/MP.

Obviously, pet HP/MP also still wins for some specific purposes - automaton tanking, trying for max pet survivability, maybe it pushes you to a point where you can get one more nuke off before dropping below Aspir/Drain threshold, maybe you don't want to deactivate a mage puppet for whatever reason, any time you're using a mage puppet but not meleeing yourself, etc.

[xiozen]

Trying to get past this silly discussion of "response times" (prove it does something or be quiet, I think the reasonable position is general knowledge to most PUPs: Animator descriptions are meaningless fluff text)...

Anyway, putting things back on track, I'd like to highlight that additional DEX+2 on the Deluxe Animator may or may not be giving you any benefit at all over Animator+1 (or even Turbo Animator). Possible DEX benefits:

1) WS mod
No H2H WS you're going to be using at high level has a DEX mod, so this isn't relevant to us.

2) Acc:
If you're not capped, 2DEX=1Acc. But in today's FFXI, you're probably capped on a lot of stuff. So maybe this benefits you in Voidwatch, some particularly difficult NMs, or maybe in some future content... but normal 75cap world content and stuff in Abyssea with Atma/Cruor buffs, you're probably getting no benefit here.

3) Crit rate:
Again, you might already be capped on dDEX (function of player DEX to mob AGI), especially in Abyssea with Razed Ruins and Cruor buffs, and with PUP's naturally high DEX (tied for 2nd among all jobs) to boot. I'm not sure whether/how the May updates have affected that cap though, so there's possibly more to this discussion (note that dDEX cap is NOT the same as overall crit rate cap and had its own cap in the past, it's just one component of overall crit rate, along with crit+ gear, merits, atma, Rogue's Roll, etc). If you AREN'T capped on dDEX, 2DEX might push you to a higher crit rate (between 0.25-1% crit rate per point of DEX depending on where on the dDEX exponential curve you are).

4) Overload rate:
Only mentioning this to be complete, and to note how much of a non-issue overloading on Thunder Maneuvers is. I think I have more DEX than my automaton naked (and once you have more DEX than the puppet adding even more adds nothing for overload purposes), and who's really spamming Thunder anyway? Plus, between Cirque body, AF gloves, and Buffoon's Collar, that's even less chance of overload. 2 DEX is not going to make any difference on this point.

CONCLUSION
If you're capped Acc and dDEX (a likely scenario in Abyssea with RR), DEX+2 does approximately nothing for you. Pet HP/MP on Animator+1 certainly wins in that case since at least it's something. If not capped Acc/dDEX, 2 more DEX will give you minor benefit that may be more useful than pet HP/MP.

Obviously, pet HP/MP also still wins for some specific purposes - automaton tanking, trying for max pet survivability, maybe it pushes you to a point where you can get one more nuke off before dropping below Aspir/Drain threshold, maybe you don't want to deactivate a mage puppet for whatever reason, any time you're using a mage puppet but not meleeing yourself, etc.

First, Anza let me apologize for derailing your attempt however, someone at Bluegartr took the time to do exactly what I have not had time to do... (or desire for that matter)... if you folks can't experience this for yourself, i don't know what to say... nevertheless... follow the link over and read the post or google it yourself... the very nice gent, actually took screenshots and performed timestamped tests etc doing comparisons between turbo animator and animator +1... since I ALREADY experience this w/ my automaton this is not at all a surprise finding:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/52889-Animator-1

For those who choose not to believe this, somewhat scientific approach, to attempting to prove something which is very very difficult to prove under combat conditions... that's your issue. Enjoy the read... and hopefully SE doesn't nuke it.

The conclusions are lackluster at best since the Mana booster was attached... too bad it was focused on mage automatons instead of melee... however I strongly believe this also applies to all automatons--wish he'd focused on that as well. Perhaps similar tests performed on melee frames will provide more definitely conclusions regarding reaction times.

[xbobx]

I find when my puppet eats chocolate cream pie, he hits faster.

[Gael]

I agree with the fact that we need more tests but i dont understand your reply Xiozen (maybe because that english is not my language). When i read you, i understand something like "i was right, this link prove it".

Its true, at the beginning this guy thought that there was a difference between the animator +1 and the turbo animator (outsite the DEX and the hp/mp part), but if you read the end :

MYTH BUSTED.

Recast times aren't touched or improved with Animator+1

Like you said (and i agree), its too bad that its only on mage automaton instead on melee, but his conclusion doesnt go in your way

[Gael]

I asked to a friend with windower to do a quick test for me, probably not the best one but it confirms the fact that recast of ja are not touched with animator +1.

How we did the test :
- Naked with an animator +1, then naked with an animator (the one lev 1 cause he doesnt know where is his turbo animator)
- he used his automaton with the rng head and the mage body (as soon the mob hit a % that i dont know, the automaton stop to cast spells on it, and since it has the rng head, it stay away from it)
- The only attachment of the automaton was a Flashbulb.
- I was whm/war and i spamed voke every 2-3 minutes (not sure we needed to do it but i didnt want to see the mob go close enough to the automaton to be killed)

With the animator +1, we had a flash every 45 seconds :



With the animator, we had a flash every 45 seconds :



Note that we did 50 flash with each animator (i know it's low but we are buzy and it's kinda boring to do more test when you always have the same result), and each time we had the same result (+/- 1 second with both animators), the reason i only post 2 little pictures is because we are on SE's forum and i dont want to make him ban (we spoke a lot lol so i asked him to cut the picture to only see what we wanted to show) so i cant show a picture with his name, but the test is easy to confirm if you want and only cost you 10 k gils (to buy an animator); and because of the overload, which are common when you dont use buffoon collar, af hands and af body.

We also tested with the strobe instead the flashbulb and same recast time with animator/animator +1.
(btw its maybe because i almost never used it but the voke of the automaton is crazy... even if i build hate (dmg, flash, voke, warcry), after each voke of the automaton, it got the hate lol)


So no, the animator +1 Dont "significantly raises the automaton's response times". It does nothing on spell/ja recast time.

As soon he will find the turbo animator, we will do the same tests

[Dfoley]

First, Anza let me apologize for derailing your attempt however, someone at Bluegartr took the time to do exactly what I have not had time to do... (or desire for that matter)... if you folks can't experience this for yourself, i don't know what to say... nevertheless... follow the link over and read the post or google it yourself... the very nice gent, actually took screenshots and performed timestamped tests etc doing comparisons between turbo animator and animator +1... since I ALREADY experience this w/ my automaton this is not at all a surprise finding:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/52889-Animator-1

For those who choose not to believe this, somewhat scientific approach, to attempting to prove something which is very very difficult to prove under combat conditions... that's your issue. Enjoy the read... and hopefully SE doesn't nuke it.

The conclusions are lackluster at best since the Mana booster was attached... too bad it was focused on mage automatons instead of melee... however I strongly believe this also applies to all automatons--wish he'd focused on that as well. Perhaps similar tests performed on melee frames will provide more definitely conclusions regarding reaction times.

Did you even read it?

Your using a post that says there is no difference as your proof/evidence/testing that there is something different?

What part of

recast was the same as Animator+1

can possibly be turned into

'lack luster at best'

, when its obvious that it wasnt lackluster, it was non existant.

When I get time this weekend I will sit down will all 3 animators i own and run the gambit of tests:
spell recast
global recast
time between ja
time before ja/ws go off after applying maneuver
what %tp it uses a ws at with no maneuvers