Raise the Minimum Requirement for entering Abyssea to Lv70 or 75

[Panthera]

I learned almost everything I know about the game from sources outside the game, and applied them after the fact. I earned the accomplishment of leveling before I ever achieved the levels.

All going from level 1 to level 90 does is prove that you gained 1,513,850 experience points.

You earned the accomplishment of learning how to play.

First, I don't expect everyone to be quite as academic as yourself, and know almost everything about the game going in as you do from research alone, and I don't think it's reasonable to do so. I think a basic understanding from research is sufficient, because there is so very much to know about this game! This is of course giving you the benefit of the doubt my friend, that your learning is skewed that much on the research side than the experience side as you said it is, because it is a very bold statement indeed.

Second, going on the assumption that people haven't only a little, or none at all, the path is suppose to be educational. Starter zones--the three first ones--tend to be very simple. No elementals, and undead and arcana are the exception rather than the rule. In other words, there are no @#$ *&%# Soulflayers in SarutaBaruta! More monsters start agroing, linking or both as you go. As an example, crabs don't agro until mid-ish levels, using pre-level cap increase terminology. It gets harder as you go along to represent the learning experience; fundamentals first, advanced concepts later--not everything all at once as per some poor leech who's learning everything all at once on Abyssea NMs.

So no, and I think I've said this before, you are correct in that it means you have that much exp, but you should have learned something along the way, and I can and do expect you to have, because we are learning beings, even if that capacity varies so widely.

Why is leveling in a traditional party the only way you see that as an accomplishment? What about Campaign?

Traditional parties are just the most obvious, common example. There's other valid forms. I'll address yours and name a few others.

Campaign is by and large fine. It's just a battle. The exp isn't per mob, but per action in battle. I don't see a problem, post buff-nerf, of course. All that buff spamming was never legit, and SE saw to that; the rules represented what is and is not cheating, to their credit.

If you got cooking skills for casting Lullaby on an Aern, which is a very strange thing to be doing to begin with, something is off. I don't see why SE designed getting points for a combat stat system from doing non combat activites this way. It's not logical. If you got fishing skills for chatting with an NPC, that makes no sense, so I don't see why talking to an NPC (Dominion OPs) when you haven't participated actively in the battle should give you experience points. That's why I have a problem with some campaign ops.

ENMs are valid. The exp doesn't come directly from the monster, it comes from the chest that drops when you fought the monster, but you still had to fight a monster on that job to get exp for that job... provided you did actually fight. MMM is the same way; the exp is from the chest, not the monsters, but it's actually based on the exp you would have gotten from the monsters anyway, so that's fine.

EXP from COP BCMs is fine... you fought a quest-based battle, which is actually kinda cool, and you got exp for it for winning. No problems here.

Bastion is fine, Besieged is fine, am I missing something?

You mentioned earlier that you personally thought SE made Abyssea accessible to level 30 jobs so that they could do minor fetch quests, but those are clearly outside the leveling process, while giving exp rewards. All of this is cheating according to you by virtue of not actively playing the role of your job in an experience points party.

If the fetch quests give you seals, equipment, gil, or cruor, they're fine. If fetch quests and the like give exp, that's cheating.

Hell, being designated puller is outside of every job's normal function. That makes it kind of hard to have a traditional exp party without being guilty of collusion.

But you're forgetting that you're engaging the monster, or involved in combat with it. Also, as you know from your research, Thief has very high evasion, that's one of it's defining traits. Pulling is supported by Thief. If Paladin can take a beating and pull, as some do, that's supported by it's job. Ninja can because of inherent utsusemi as well as high evasion, so that's supported by the job as well. Summoner pet pulling is a highly specialized form of pulling, so that's very specific to Summoner or Beastmaster, and Puppetmaster to a much lesser extent. I've pulled a lot on Bard, where it has the unique advantage of being largely indirectly--which still counts-- related to the fight, so it's free to put songs on and get another mob while the party fights the mob.

Btw, I didn't understand your use of collusion. Could you elaborate? Seems odd in this context to me.

What have you gained from your levels, though? Strictly speaking if you aren't able to present yourself as a competent level 90 *whatever* you have in effect 'leeched' your experience points, no different than a 'key master'.

Correct. I've said the same thing myself, with the same premise right down to the conclusion. But aren't you then validating my position that keymastering is cheating?

That's what makes you a hypocrite.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're using "you" to mean "one". I've been called many things, but incompetent is not one of them. I do some research myself, other things I learn by doing.

While I often end up often disagreeing with you, at least you have a valid premise as often as not, but then the conclusion isn't always supported by it. Regretably, some posts by others lack your solid foundations. One of the other side's better fighters, /cheer.

[Mrbeansman]

My totally wrong opinion

You people really need to get out of this idea that you should only get exp for participation when that's simply not how it works. The only people who care are self rightgous Dudley Dorights such as yourself who are the minority.

[Akujima]

You people really need to get out of this idea that you should only get exp for participation when that's simply not how it works. The only people who care are self rightgous Dudley Dorights such as yourself who are the minority.

@Panthera: I've no idea why you continue to debate against these people. The only reason they're still here, is because they need to defend they're own moralistic viewpoint and criticize ours. You are calling them out for "cheating" so they need to defend that it is not, to save themselves from feeling guilty. The moment you started to elaborate on "leeching as cheating" the argument turned in the opposite direction. At this point, they probably just view you as a religious preacher, trying to explain and uphold commandments such as "thou shall not cheat".

Your posts are strong. That's the only reason this thread has lasted so long. But when you break down the walls too far, people feel insecure about being out in the open. They will need to build those walls back up and target you as the enemy for trying to show them something they are not ready to see. They will not understand your intentions, and it will continue to be personal attack after personal attack, so save your self some dignity for at least trying.

Nothing good will come from the rest of this thread, so let the issue go and face the facts of reality. Stop allowing them to retaliate in a rude manner. You're giving them the opportunity to demean you and they're relishing in it. The thread tags only prove this to be true.

[Chocobits]

@Panthera: I've no idea why you continue to debate against these people. The only reason they're still here, is because they need to defend they're own moralistic viewpoint and criticize ours. You are calling them out for "cheating" so they need to defend that it is not, to save themselves from feeling guilty. The moment you started to elaborate on "leeching as cheating" the argument turned in the opposite direction. At this point, they probably just view you as a religious preacher, trying to explain and uphold commandments such as "thou shall not cheat".

Your posts are strong. That's the only reason this thread has lasted so long. But when you break down the walls too far, people feel insecure about being out in the open. They will need to build those walls back up and target you as the enemy for trying to show them something they are not ready to see. They will not understand your intentions, and it will continue to be personal attack after personal attack, so save your self some dignity for at least trying.

Nothing good will come from the rest of this thread, so let the issue go and face the facts of reality. Stop allowing them to retaliate in a rude manner. You're giving them the opportunity to demean you and they're relishing in it. The thread tags only prove this to be true.

We treat you like preachy preachers because you sound preachy. You're imposing on our style of gameplay with weak and overcited examples of your definition of cheating. In any democratic process, yes, the majority IS correct. You need to get over the idea that just because you are a minority, you are not incorrect. You are incorrect by popular census. Your ideas suck by popular census. You are controlling and feel a need to dictate the way everyone else plays, and attempt to justify that by saying that anyone who disagrees is immature or not2bright.

Imagine a town hall meeting. Everything is pretty much wrapping up and everyone wants to get home and get on with their lives. There's this guy though, he keeps standing up and asking for action against the new hay bail loading system because it requires less work. Everyone else in the meeting dismisses the idea and the mayor is attempting to adjourn the meeting. This guy just won't stop though. He harps, preaches, whines and even makes accusations of cheating and laziness.

Who is being immature? We just want this meeting adjourned.

By the way, how are your interactions IRL? At work? Do you harp on your coworkers for being lazy or cheating? Do you have that obsessive need to control every aspect of your life as you do in Vana'diel? You probably aren't very popular or well-liked IRL either. You just need to relax broseph. You go against the grain just for the sake of going against the grain, instead of letting life flow naturally in a manner that would be more enjoyable for yourself and everyone around you. Once you come over to "our" side, you'll see that the grass is much, much less green on your side, and how silly you've made yourself look so far.

[Akujima]

By the way, how are your interactions IRL? At work? Do you harp on your coworkers for being lazy or cheating? Do you have that obsessive need to control every aspect of your life as you do in Vana'diel? You probably aren't very popular or well-liked IRL either. You just need to relax broseph. You go against the grain just for the sake of going against the grain, instead of letting life flow naturally in a manner that would be more enjoyable for yourself and everyone around you. Once you come over to "our" side, you'll see that the grass is much, much less green on your side, and how silly you've made yourself look so far.

Personal attack after personal attack.

[Chocobits]

Personal attack after personal attack.

Not really, if you actually read. I'm giving you advice on how to change your faulty mindset, so that you can enjoy life. I'm not attacking you, but your poisonous way of thinking. You can't live a healthy adult life with an attitude like that because you're not going to be allowed to control people in the way you want.

[Greatguardian]

Personal attack after personal attack.

Hi Hypocrisy, my name is Narcissistic Megalomaniac.

[Alkalinehoe]

Personal attack after personal attack.

He's right you know.

Also, I love how after nearly a decade SE finally fix leveling issues people have been complaining about, and all of a sudden they want to go back.

SE made it possible for two types of players to level. The one who is more concerned about reaching the level cap faster and the one more concerned with taking their time "learning" (lol) their jobs. What I don't get is, why must there be only one way? I've never heard anyone who is pro keywhoring/leeching in abyssea once say they should get rid of EXP in outside areas/make it harder to EXP. Most of them are in favor of adjusting old content (campaign for example) to give more EXP/make it easier leveling. Yet nearly all the people who I talk to who dislike Abyssea leveling claim they should raise the level cap to stop low levels from leveling in Abyssea.

Their reasons seem to be:
1. It would make building low level parties easier.
2. It would reinvigorate the AH/economy for crafters to make more low level equipment.
3. You don't "learn" your job.
4. You get to "explore" new areas.

Well first off, sure it would make building low level parties easier, but there isn't a want for it. Face it, the majority of people wish to focus on endgame content instead of spending their time in low level exp parties. If you really can't find 1-5 more people who want to static exp with you then you are probably in the minority when it comes to wanting low level parties. Crafting low level gear usually wasn't profitable, they did it to skill up on and hope to break even. If it did reinvigorate the economy, chances are it would be overinflated due to high demand. If it really must take you 45 levels of doing the same thing you've been doing since level 1 to learn your job, then go ahead and do it, but most competent players (Read: competent, THF/DNCs who fulltime full aurore and NQ +4 STR rings since they dinged 90 3 months ago are not competent). Though many jobs are really just the same and shouldn't take you more than a few hours messing around with it in the tree while skilling up to get the grasp of it. If going to one corner of the map and staying there for hours is called "exploring" then idk i just, idk anymore.

[Akujima]

then you are probably in the minority when it comes to wanting low level parties.

This minority that people speak of, is not as small as everyone thinks.

[Kimble]

@Panthera: The only reason they're still here, is because they need to defend they're own moralistic viewpoint and criticize ours.

Pot. Meet Kettle.