Raise the Minimum Requirement for entering Abyssea to Lv70 or 75

[HFX7686]

Akujima,

Why are you so obsessed about leveling? Leveling is one of the least important things in FF11. There are a lot more things to do other than leveling. Most people I know, including myself, try to avoid leveling as much as possible so we can get out there and do other things. In fact, when they last raised the level cap I got all my new levels on my main jobs through doing NMs in Abyssea, not experience points parties.

There's really so much to do in this game I don't understand why you're so focused on such a small part of it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Ok, here's an objective truth:

1. You can bring low level characters into Abyssea.
2. SE is aware you can bring low level characters into Abyssea.
3. You can gain massive amounts of exp in a short amount of time in Abyssea.
4. SE is aware you can gain massive amounts of exp in a short amount of time in Abyssea.

Therefore, SE is not only aware a low level character brought into Abyssea can gain massive amounts of exp in a short amount of time, they intended for this to happen.

SE was aware of people 'burning' jobs up before Abyssea was released, and not only said they were aware of it, they stated it was working as intended, i.e. they wanted this to happen.

Are you seriously trying to argue the developers who intended for something to happen are openly allowing people to 'cheat' when gaining a massive amount of exp in a short amount of time is both a) nothing new and b) working as intended?

[Vivik]

@Panthera: Good luck trying to get any point across. It's quite obvious that it's impossible to have a mature debate with anyone here.

Mature debates ended on this topic a while ago when the servers were down. Now it's just user 6489+ rehashing the same crap. It's not going to change, the majority of the player base does not want it to change, SE does not want it to change, and nobody cares if you do, move on...

[Panthera]

@Panthera: Good luck trying to get any point across. It's quite obvious that it's impossible to have a mature debate with anyone here.

I think that's completely true of some, not completely true of some, and not at all of others.

Some write or think poorly, are rude. Some just repeat themselves without adding anything new. Some won't address valid points because they don't have an arguement. Some just want attention. Or all of the above. What particularly tickles me is that some that argue for leeching because it's not against TOS are trolling, which is against forum rules.

Some may only have a brief verbal mistep, but don't continue when asked to stop.

Some write quite well, have points with some validity. There was a good point about Exp scrolls, as just but one example.

I honestly think some may not actually care if it is cheating at all, with the recognition and agreeance that leeching is everything I assert it be; they just don't care. They get their levels at the consequence of their own conscience, because it is, afterall is said and done, only a game. They do what they know is wrong, and do it anyway because it benefits them; it does more good for them to cheat than play honestly, that they may feel a little bad about it is just a trade off.

To convince them is not the only goal. Some mind may be in fact be changed. Some silent, undecided may have gone one way or the other, or decided that both sides have points, so they are both right, and wrong. But just because you may or may not have convinced them does not mean you haven't won the arguement.

To the other side's credit, I think saying that there's no one with whom to have a mature discussion--as an absolute, is exaggerating, my friend. If you feel someone has something new and worthwhile to reply to, don't let trolls stop you from doing so. But just put trolls on the ignore list where they belong. I have.

picking and pointing at your minor inconsistencies until it drives you mad.

Such as? I think I've been very, very consistent, and I've added new arguements when possible. I'd like to think my arguement as evolved over time, becoming more specific and more clear, if I may say so.

[RaenRyong]

@Panthera: Your argument is terrible because it relies on your own arbitrary definitions of "wrong" and "cheating", when from the perspective of the game, leeching or fast exping is neither.

There's really so much to do in this game I don't understand why you're so focused on such a small part of it.

I would assert it's likely because neither poster has much accomplished that isn't grinding exp that everyone who has ever played the game has accomplished. Care to prove me wrong on this point?

Speaking to them about intangible things, such as emotion, feelings and accomplishments is futile. Rarely do people truly understand these things anymore, and far and few between will have the integrity to discuss these things in a mature manner.

Because these things are completely subjective. While you may be ecstatic and loving your life after the 20th hour of colibri grinding in a row, most people want to curl up in a corner and die, for instance.

[DrStrangelove]

Ok, here's an objective truth:

1. You can bring low level characters into Abyssea.
2. SE is aware you can bring low level characters into Abyssea.
3. You can gain massive amounts of exp in a short amount of time in Abyssea.
4. SE is aware you can gain massive amounts of exp in a short amount of time in Abyssea.
5. In no place EXCEPT Abyssea is it possible for a level 30 character to gain XP while killing mobs in an alliance with a level 75+ character. In short, SE specifically CHANGED the code to allow low level players to gain XP. This proves that not only was this not an oversight, it was intended.

Therefore, SE is not only aware a low level character brought into Abyssea can gain massive amounts of exp in a short amount of time, they intended for this to happen.

SE was aware of people 'burning' jobs up before Abyssea was released, and not only said they were aware of it, they stated it was working as intended, i.e. they wanted this to happen.

Are you seriously trying to argue the developers who intended for something to happen are openly allowing people to 'cheat' when gaining a massive amount of exp in a short amount of time is both a) nothing new and b) working as intended?

Great post you made. I added point #5 with all due respect.

[Meyi]

@Panthera: Good luck trying to get any point across. It's quite obvious that it's impossible to have a mature debate with anyone here.

Yes, it's impossible to have a mature debate when the other side is composed of complete morons.

Nobody appreciates bringing appropriate logic to a debate only to have the entire argument crapped on by a few selected words being picked by the other team and debated upon. It's rude. You need to learn how to debate better if you want anyone to take you seriously. You want mature responses to respond to? Look through all 43 pages of this thread. You'll find tons of them scattered everywhere. Consider maybe actually taking apart good responses rather than just sentence fragments.

[TybudX]

Levels are about combat ability, measured in increments by skill and combat levels, by stats such as STR and VIT. If you study karate, you get better at it by practicing it, not by cooking, or driving, or something that isn't karate. It only makes sense then that in order to gain combat levels, one must participate in combat, and not something else.

This doesn't apply to FFXI. I learned almost everything I know about the game from sources outside the game, and applied them after the fact. I earned the accomplishment of leveling before I ever achieved the levels. All going from level 1 to level 90 does is prove that you gained 1,513,850 experience points.

Why is leveling in a traditional party the only way you see that as an accomplishment? What about Campaign? Campaign Ops? You mentioned earlier that you personally thought SE made Abyssea accessible to level 30 jobs so that they could do minor fetch quests, but those are clearly outside the leveling process, while giving exp rewards. All of this is cheating according to you by virtue of not actively playing the role of your job in an experience points party. Hell, being designated puller is outside of every job's normal function. That makes it kind of hard to have a traditional exp party without being guilty of collusion.

Yes, your argument has been very consistent. You have selected a point at which you say you are not cheating when you gain experience. You have taken the strict definition of the term 'cheating', applied it to something you don't like, and removed all context but your own. What have you gained from your levels, though? Strictly speaking if you aren't able to present yourself as a competent level 90 *whatever* you have in effect 'leeched' your experience points, no different than a 'key master'. That's what makes you a hypocrite.

[Byrth]

SE supposedly didn't realize Utsusemi would make Ninja a tanking superpower. Lets not pretend they have a massive amount of foresight here.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Typically though abilities etc. being used outside their intended purpose that they are aware of are either quickly patched or they decide sure why not and let it roll. Utsusemei was the latter. From what I've heard they already nerfed Utsusemei twice - they patched it so shadows were wiped by AoE and that you lost hate from shadows being hit.