Why Do You Loose Claim On Abyssea Mobs If Everyone Is Not Dead?

Is this a technical issue and why do certain spells not claim Notorious Monsters?

It works the same as outside abyssea.
Lots of random things can make mobs go unclaimed, like having the only person who had an action on it die, having someone who has it engaged run out of range of being engaged and force disengaging, etc.
In order to claim a monster that has hate on someone not in your party/alliance, you need to first get the monster to attack someone in your party/alliance, then have someone perform an action on it. Any monster who doesn't have hate on anyone will be claimed by anyone who performs any action on it.

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Lots of random things

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There is absolutely nothing random about it.

Monsters are claimed to the individual person, not to a party. The last person who performed an action on the mob has claim on it. If that person does something to lose claim (ie, disengage), then the mob will unclaim, if someone else in the party does not claim it in the time it takes for it to go yellow.

BST have been dealing with this for years nothing new.

It's still an issue imo, one that could be easily resolved. Claim a monster to a party and don't let it go yellow until everyone in the party is hate-free (dead or zoned for example).

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Originally Posted by Arcon

It's still an issue imo, one that could be easily resolved. Claim a monster to a party and don't let it go yellow until everyone in the party is hate-free (dead or zoned for example).

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So you want it to be impossible to unclaim a mob, short of zoning, dying, or calling for help?

As if apoc-zombie'ing NMs isn't bad enough already? If your NM goes unclaimed, stop QQing, learn from it, and do better next time. Shit does happen sometimes, you know?

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Originally Posted by rog

So you want it to be impossible to unclaim a mob, short of zoning, dying, or calling for help?

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Yes. I think unclaiming mobs while the alliance still has the will to fight it should be pretty much impossible, short of a total wipe. Sky gods had a nice solution with isolated islands once gods are popped, but that would be hard to do on all NMs. Maybe introducing the Confrontation status while mobs still have hate?

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

As if apoc-zombie'ing NMs isn't bad enough already? If your NM goes unclaimed, stop QQing, learn from it, and do better next time. Shit does happen sometimes, you know?

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Shit happening (per definition) is shit. Why not fix it when possible? Apoc-zombie is nowhere near the same, there's plenty of times when no one is on the hate list during that tactic, so plenty of times when the mob is unclaimed.

The only reason to be for this game mechanic is to be a social parasite and steal the pops of others. I don't see any reason why this should be encouraged, especially on triggered NMs.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Yes. I think unclaiming mobs while the alliance still has the will to fight it should be pretty much impossible, short of a total wipe. Sky gods had a nice solution with isolated islands once gods are popped, but that would be hard to do on all NMs. Maybe introducing the Confrontation status while mobs still have hate?

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And if they do not have the will to fight? What if they want to give it up to someone else, without dying? They just have to die? What you are suggesting is not "pretty much impossible", it is entirely 100% impossible, even when someone WANTS to unclaim a mob.

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Originally Posted by rog

And if they do not have the will to fight? What if they want to give it up to someone else, without dying? They just have to die? What you are suggesting is not "pretty much impossible", it is entirely 100% impossible, even when someone WANTS to unclaim a mob.

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You are making some pretty poor excuses for an obvious game flaw.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

You are making some pretty poor excuses for an obvious game flaw.

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No, i just think there are better ways to fix the problem without creating more problems.

Well then, imagine the combination of this suggestion and apoc-zombie'ing? You could basically stand there watching a group take literally hours to kill one NM since as long as one party member is alive, the NM won't go unclaimed.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

The only reason to be for this game mechanic is to be a social parasite and steal the pops of others.

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Then I will claim that the only reason to be against this game mechanic is because you screwed up, lost claim, lost the NM and are QQing about it.

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Originally Posted by rog

And if they do not have the will to fight? What if they want to give it up to someone else, without dying? They just have to die? What you are suggesting is not "pretty much impossible", it is entirely 100% impossible, even when someone WANTS to unclaim a mob.

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I've never known anyone who wanted to give up a mob but cared about having to die or zone for it (not like anyone cares about dying, and there's always warp/tele or even a regular zone nearby sometimes), especially considering how the point of wanting to give up doesn't usually come before most of the group is dead already, or recovering and not on the hate list, so it would only affect a few select people out of the group. If SE still cared for that though, they could make another version of CFH, although personally I don't think that's necessary.

And when I said "pretty much impossible" I meant while they still have the will to fight. The only exception should be if they wipe completely.

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Originally Posted by rog

No, i just think there are better ways to fix the problem without creating more problems.

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Then what do you suggest?

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Well then, imagine the combination of this suggestion and apoc-zombie'ing? You could basically stand there watching a group take literally hours to kill one NM since as long as one party member is alive, the NM won't go unclaimed.

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Not really, as I just said, the Apoc-zombie strategy usually involves dying. Dead = not on hate list = mob unclaimed. And if there's others in your party who aren't dead, then where's the difference to now? This is not suggesting anything ridiculously new, it just makes it easier for people who want it to protect their mobs.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Then I will claim that the only reason to be against this game mechanic is because you screwed up, lost claim, lost the NM and are QQing about it.

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Then your reasoning is flawed in two ways. For one, I never got a mob stolen from me, you made a wrong assumption. I still think it's detrimental to the community to allow such behaviour, which is why we don't tolerate doing that in our LS and have rejected people known for such behaviour before. Secondly, you assume that "QQing" (what a ridiculous term, this alone makes me not take you seriously) is inherently bad. If people are "QQing" for a reason, then that reason should be explored, because it can obviously upset the community.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I've never known anyone who wanted to give up a mob but cared about having to die or zone for it (not like anyone cares about dying, and there's always warp/tele or even a regular zone nearby sometimes), especially considering how the point of wanting to give up doesn't usually come before most of the group is dead already, or recovering and not on the hate list, so it would only affect a few select people out of the group. If SE still cared for that though, they could make another version of CFH, although personally I don't think that's necessary.

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You've never seen someone try to solo something, and quickly realize they are unable to, and give up? Really?

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Then what do you suggest?

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I dunno. I don't have the answer.

Thoughts on it:

1) add an exception to allow bst to claim a second mob with charm, without unclaiming the original.
2) increase the amount of time it takes for a mob to turn yellow.
3) allow up to two people from the same party to simultaneously claim a mob. This would allow a party to retain claim on a mob if the last person to attack it disengages/dies, even if no one else hits it shortly after.

I think those three things would suffice, particularly the third would make a huge difference, but i dunno. It would not be perfect, but i suspect it would be close enough.

@Arcon: I use the term "QQing" because that is exactly what I see a lot of on this forum. People failing at something, then whining about it saying "bawww I screwed up, SE fix the game so it's impossible for me to screw up!!".

Getting pop sets for abyssea NMs isn't hard. Fighting abyssea NMs isn't hard. Making mistakes is human. Mistakes having consequences is normal.

Have I ever lost NMs by them going unclaimed? Yes. Is it annoying? Yes. Did we have anyone else to blame but ourselves? No.

Oh and Rog's suggestions aren't bad at all, I also think those 3 things would help a lot without making it impossible for a NM to go unclaimed short of full wipe/zone.

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Originally Posted by rog

There is absolutely nothing random about it.

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You are correct, there is nothing random about how unclaiming mobs occurs, but there is lots of random(different) things you can do to make it happen.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

You are correct, there is nothing random about how unclaiming mobs occurs, but there is lots of random(different) things you can do to make it happen.

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No, the only two things that can unclaim a mob:

1) disengaging
2) attacking a different mob while not engaged.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Yes. I think unclaiming mobs while the alliance still has the will to fight it should be pretty much impossible, short of a total wipe. Sky gods had a nice solution with isolated islands once gods are popped, but that would be hard to do on all NMs. Maybe introducing the Confrontation status while mobs still have hate?



Shit happening (per definition) is shit. Why not fix it when possible? Apoc-zombie is nowhere near the same, there's plenty of times when no one is on the hate list during that tactic, so plenty of times when the mob is unclaimed.

The only reason to be for this game mechanic is to be a social parasite and steal the pops of others. I don't see any reason why this should be encouraged, especially on triggered NMs.

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mob turning yellow is part of game, and sometimes turn to be fun: (double fail)
- whm pull tunga, i voke it , we got breakgaed, i die Tunga went yellow!(fail!!!)
- 2nd fail : some other camper claim it before we fully wipe. we said that we get KI when they kill, they let it claimed without touching it (???) never went yellow, after few min they start killing it and we got ki as expected

Keeping monsters claimed is a pain sometimes. Was on Bukhis 2 tanks I died I went out of AoE range weapon not drawn casting flash using provoke so if the other tank died it would be on me so he dies it went yellow for about 1 sec a mnk/war chi blasts then provokes ... steals it. We also had blms and brds casting on it rngs on it... it shouldn't of went unclaimed but it did. That needs to be fixed even if it is a lousy Bukhis it shouldn't of happened.

NMs should have party hate and rage timers meaning cant go idle or unclaimed unless everyone is dead Apoc zombie wont work with a low rage timer if everyone is dead to make it go idle to reset rage its unclaimed and fair game.

As for the issue of BST getting a new pet unclaiming what they are fighting issue allow multiple monsters to stay claimed at once (lets say 5)

Example Kirin +4 summons they should come out all claimed but they don't cause of this issue. The only way back in the day to keep Kirin claimed was 2 parties - party #1 to kite and hold him and party #2 to kill the mini gods off 1st then form and kill Kirin this would have never happened if this issue was fixed when BST complained about it. About 8 years ago?

If there are monsters that have more than 5 I say make it that number of max claimed.

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Originally Posted by rog

No, the only two things that can unclaim a mob:

1) disengaging
2) attacking a different mob while not engaged.

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Random is describing the different things you can do to make mobs unclaim, not saying that it happens whenever it wants to without any cause. Stop misunderstanding what I am saying. And there's also more ways then you listed for mobs to unclaim.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Random is describing the different things you can do to make mobs unclaim, not saying that it happens whenever it wants to without any cause. Stop misunderstanding what I am saying. And there's also more ways then you listed for mobs to unclaim.

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My issue was with "lots of ways". There are not. There are exactly two ways. And i understood what you meant from the start.

Sorry, but no. All ways to unclaim a mob boil down to one of those two. Died? Well that causes you to disengage. Zoned? Disengaged. Charmed? Disengaged. Need i go on?

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Originally Posted by rog

My issue was with "lots of ways". There are not. There are exactly two ways. And i understood what you meant from the start.

Sorry, but no. All ways to unclaim a mob boil down to one of those two. Died? Well that causes you to disengage. Zoned? Disengaged. Charmed? Disengaged. Need i go on?

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Which of your 2 categories does casting dia on a mob then running really really far away fall into?
Last I checked that doesn't fall into your categories and it makes mobs unclaim.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Which of your 2 categories does casting dia on a mob then running really really far away fall into?
Last I checked that doesn't fall into your categories and it makes mobs unclaim.

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Ok, you caught me. Deaggroing will also cause a mob to unclaim. Three ways then.

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Originally Posted by rog

Ok, you caught me. Deaggroing will also cause a mob to unclaim. Three ways then.

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Distance will make it unclaim, as well as deaggroing, that's actually 2 more.

My linkshell will usually wait for a group to fully wipe before claiming an NM.

However, if it is blatantly obvious said group is just zombie-killing it with Apoc atma then we will claim as soon as yellow.

Tbh they should make the reraise effect from this atma and twilight gear only work if you're not weakened.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Distance will make it unclaim, as well as deaggroing, that's actually 2 more.

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Distance causes deaggro. Same thing.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

My linkshell will usually wait for a group to fully wipe before claiming an NM.

However, if it is blatantly obvious said group is just zombie-killing it with Apoc atma then we will claim as soon as yellow.

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I agree with this comment, it's a smart move. Not so much anymore because there is multiple ???'s, but before that, when people could zombie stuff for hours and actually keep others from doing it.... I would snag their mobs and kill them. But hey, I was nice about it, I would give them the drops if they didn't nerd rage and start cussing and throwing a fit like a child.

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Originally Posted by rog

Distance causes deaggro. Same thing.

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<3

here's a perfect example of this happening at a bad time, i was fighting a NM with my wife and i had no problem with fighting with pets, but the problem came when my wife did a huge weaponskill and got killed for it that the monster automatically turned yellow just for her dying and i was still fighting it and still had hate, the monster still went after my pet and i had to wait 1-2 hits before i could reclaim the monster. During this time some players thought it was their right to take the mob saying i wasn't skilled enough to fight it even though i had got it down to less then 5%.

This is a real problem, i was still at 100% health and my pet was still fighting but because my wife pulled more hate and died it declaimed open for others to try to steal it. This really needs to be resolved.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

here's a perfect example of this happening at a bad time, i was fighting a NM with my wife and i had no problem with fighting with pets, but the problem came when my wife did a huge weaponskill and got killed for it that the monster automatically turned yellow just for her dying and i was still fighting it and still had hate, the monster still went after my pet and i had to wait 1-2 hits before i could reclaim the monster. During this time some players thought it was their right to take the mob saying i wasn't skilled enough to fight it even though i had got it down to less then 5%.

This is a real problem, i was still at 100% health and my pet was still fighting but because my wife pulled more hate and died it declaimed open for others to try to steal it. This really needs to be resolved.

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Hate has nothing to do with claim.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

My linkshell will usually wait for a group to fully wipe before claiming an NM.

However, if it is blatantly obvious said group is just zombie-killing it with Apoc atma then we will claim as soon as yellow.

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This is what my LS and friends do. We will, however, immediately try to claim the NM if it goes yellow if said group was rude to us earlier (curing and event skipping our people at the ???, rude /tells, unwarranted trash talk in /say, etc.).

That being said, I've had to apoc zombie an NM before (NIN dc'd right as I died to Glavoid's Gorge), and I'm glad no other groups were around. I would not have blamed them for taking the NM. Wiping is no fun, but it happens to everyone at one time or another.

I think most monsters (pretty much everything but Rani and Raja) should automatically unclaim every 15 minutes and stay unclaimed for 30 seconds. You kill too slow? You lose your monster. It would be as effective as a rage timer during times of competition, but let less skilled players still kill things lowman during slow playtimes.

The last thing we need are more THF/NINs stacking Regen Atmas and waiting for things to die.

And no, I'm not concerned with alliances that are Apoc zombieing something (wasting everyone's time) and lose claim on it. The claim system is exactly as rog explained it, in my experience. Wait for someone else to make an action on the monster before you disband, disengage, etc., or it'll go unclaimed to your alliance. Nuking Tiamat in the air way-back-when and disbanding exactly as my nuke hit always had this effect too. You could use it to steal drops from your alliance if you were dickish enough about it.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I think most monsters (pretty much everything but Rani and Raja) should automatically unclaim every 15 minutes and stay unclaimed for 30 seconds. You kill too slow? You lose your monster. It would be as effective as a rage timer during times of competition, but let less skilled players still kill things lowman during slow playtimes.

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That is kind of an amazing solution to rage.

I have always hated the rage system because it could potentially make soloing impossible, but such a system would allow anyone to kill anything at any speed they can/want, and as long as no one else is around to be bothered by it, they would not have a problem. And if no one is around, then who cares how long it takes them?

the thing is, I've seen claim lost even if it has DoT or a debuff on it, and that should NOT be the case. One of the primary uses for DoT/debuff is to keep claim. After all, you can most certainly use them to GET claim, I used to brd/rdm all the time to pull mage mobs with silence, or solo pull whm with para, etc. That does not work in Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

the thing is, I've seen claim lost even if it has DoT or a debuff on it, and that should NOT be the case. One of the primary uses for DoT/debuff is to keep claim. After all, you can most certainly use them to GET claim, I used to brd/rdm all the time to pull mage mobs with silence, or solo pull whm with para, etc. That does not work in Abyssea.

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It doesn't necessarily work outside of abyssea either.

I've never seen claim lost outside Aby on an NM with an active DoT/Debuff effect. I do remember there was something done to keep HNMLS from just kiting their NM until the rest of the shell showed up. but I thought that was the rage system, to kill the kiter, I don't recall anything about losing claim. Granted, I never had any interest in HNMLS-type play so I never looked into it that much other than to laugh at monopolizers getting their just deserts when the announcement was made.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

the thing is, I've seen claim lost even if it has DoT or a debuff on it, and that should NOT be the case. One of the primary uses for DoT/debuff is to keep claim.

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lolwut? Having a debuff on a mob has no bearing on claim, and it never has. Read my previous posts. There are exactly three things that can cause a mob to unclaim, and those three things will ALWAYS cause a mob to unclaim, no exceptions.

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Originally Posted by rog

No, i just think there are better ways to fix the problem without creating more problems.

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How is it creating more problems by allowing a mob to stay claimed to a party until everyone is dead or zoned out? That makes absolutely no sense what you just said.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

I've never seen claim lost outside Aby on an NM with an active DoT/Debuff effect. I do remember there was something done to keep HNMLS from just kiting their NM until the rest of the shell showed up. but I thought that was the rage system, to kill the kiter, I don't recall anything about losing claim. Granted, I never had any interest in HNMLS-type play so I never looked into it that much other than to laugh at monopolizers getting their just deserts when the announcement was made.

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If i had a joyeuse for every time i have lost claim on charby while soloing it with 2-4 debuffs on it, i would have about twice as many joyeuses as i have gotten before.

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Originally Posted by rog

And if they do not have the will to fight? What if they want to give it up to someone else, without dying? They just have to die? What you are suggesting is not "pretty much impossible", it is entirely 100% impossible, even when someone WANTS to unclaim a mob.

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They home point or leave the zone... It's not hard.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

How is it creating more problems by allowing a mob to stay claimed to a party until everyone is dead or zoned out? That makes absolutely no sense.

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You do not see why it would be a problem for it to be completely impossible to unclaim a mob without dying/zoning?