At 99, free us from having to choose a either nin or dnc sub to get dual wield. Open up the sub job possibilities with native dual weild for every job at 99
Give every job dual wield at 99
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10-23-2011, 10:50 AMOlorGive every job dual wield at 99
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10-23-2011, 10:54 AMNeisan_Quetz
Dual wield only matters for single handers anyway. And of those, Pld still doesn't care, Dnc Nin and Thf have it already, and Blu can set it. That leaves ... ohwait.
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10-23-2011, 10:58 AMMDenhamWHM and RDM, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
Speaking of dual wield, it'd be nice if dual MAcc wands/swords beat accuracy-affinity staves at 99, but for some reason I don't see that happening. -
10-23-2011, 11:07 AMNeisan_Quetz
OP's Job actually. I don't mind subbing Nin for dualwield on either. Chances are SE would do what they did with Thf and make it DW1 at a high level, so it would be superfluous at best.
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10-23-2011, 11:17 AMZaknafeinDual wield tier 1 amounts to a whole lot of nothing if you have a basic understanding of game mechanics, and math.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
Apparently those are not a requirement for posting threads. -
10-23-2011, 12:24 PMUrthdigger
Weren't people asking a while back for samurai to dual wield great katanas?
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10-23-2011, 12:26 PMReardenSomeone doesn't know what superfluous means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaknafein
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10-23-2011, 12:49 PMMDenhamOn this line of reasoning, Galkas with Dual Wield should be able to dual wield Tarus, who may have Dual Wield themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Urthdigger
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10-23-2011, 01:50 PMHashmalumAnd the tarus are dual wielding pixies. Pixies who also have Dual Wield.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDenham
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10-23-2011, 02:08 PMDew
While we are at making duel wield GKs, lets make it so War can Duel wield Ukon and Bravura. Heck lets not stop there maybe some double shield action too. Lets also make some Duel wield staffs. Summoner can melee it up with Claustrum and Hvergelmir. That's double the win right there.
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10-23-2011, 03:29 PMEconomizerDW1 for all jobs would be so hot. At the least, you'd be able to get slightly better melee ability at all times, although you'd still want to sub Dancer or Ninja in many cases. Maybe a ranged attack item that grants the ability (unlike stuff like the Suppa earring) would be more realistic for making this happen? While even this does open up options, there are still consequences to even an item version (same with an item version of Wide Scan 1).Quote:
Originally Posted by MDenham
On more realistic DW adjustments, Thief should get DW2 at some point at the least, and we know BLU is going to get a higher tier via spells. Any one handed job would be thrilled to get the ability though. If I had to list the jobs most likely to get a tier of this, I'd probably have Beastmaster, Corsair and Ranger as the likely suspects. A mage can dream though, right? -
10-23-2011, 04:18 PMAtomic_SkullAll the jobs that use 1H weapons either already have it or have no use for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
THF DNC NIN BLU: have it already. Of these THF and BLU will always be using /NIN for shadows and DW3 anyway.
PLD: Should never take off shield.
RDM: Should always be using staves.
WHM: See RDM.
WAR: Should always use great axe. -
10-23-2011, 04:25 PMSoranika
It honestly doesn't make sense to have dual wield on every job though. Maybe on WAR, but it seems like your reasons for for wanting DW on every job (which to be honest, you want it specifically on BST) is near the same as me hoping DNC would get their own native blink/shadows job ability because I really dislike subbing NIN.
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10-23-2011, 05:39 PMBabekeke
The reason BST wants Dual Wield has nothing at all to do with faster TP building. In fact, It likely has exactly the opposite reason... I'll explain.
Right now, to Dual Wield 2 -PDT pet axes, BST has to sub NIN or DNC. Subbing NIN means you can keep shadows up vs a mob that doesn't AOE, however if the mob can AOE you, DNC can be better to cure yourself.
Unfortunately, /DNC requires TP which isn't very easy to come by, and even harder in situations like closed battlefields where there's only the NM to build TP on. In this situation, /SCH /WHM or /RDM are much better options as you can replenish mp simply by /heal, not to mention far more refresh gear available, and sublimation/refresh from rdm or sch. But right now, you can only wield 1 x -pdt axe if you /sch /whm or /rdm
If this wasn't why the OP wanted DW for BST, I'm stumped. -
10-23-2011, 06:20 PMEconomizerI don't even have to break into melee situations to bust this, but those alone would break this misinformed statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull
Clubs and Swords inherently have better stats then shields. Tefnut Wand and a Templar Mace, or a Galenus for more cure potency then a Staff currently can give. Enfeebles have potency based on stats, so in certain cases having +10 MND will win out over more magic accuracy. Furthermore, for White Mage currently, the best cure set for maximum MP cured per cure currently uses a Tefnut Wand a shield. Getting Dual Wield would benefit this.
While one could argue that it wouldn't make sense from a flavor or balance standpoint (and perhaps it doesn't, I'm not saying it would make sense), arguing that it wouldn't be useful is just plain wrong.
Aside from the obvious BST needs that you clearly pointed out, I'd say that being able to offhand a multihitter for TP will always win out over not being able to, even with Dual Wield 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
While people serious about boosting melee damage will still sub Dancer or Ninja, it would work well in the situations you listed to be able to have melee as an option while you are focusing on something else.
Or for example, if you are a Red Mage, you could sub Dark Knight for more Sword weapon skills while still getting Dual Wield, or Warrior for more Sword weapon skills and double attack (which is very potent when used with even the lowest tier of DW). -
10-23-2011, 10:58 PMNeisan_Quetz
*Than a buyable staff can give on Cure Potency
Please see Surya's Staff with Cure Potency augment.
Only Slow Para Blind and Addle(?) are directly affected by INT/MND from a potency standpoint for enfeebles (I have seen no evidence for Break and it appears to function similar to Bind as far as INT/Macc affects it), for the others they only give Magic Accuracy depending on dINT/dMND.
The problem with your last statement is that it isn't. Last time I saw math on it for Blu who has similar but better gear for meleeing than Rdm, Dual Wield III was better than Dual Wield II+Berserk (of course, DA was unaccounted for since you can set it regardless of sub), Unless you were benefiting from both Zerk and Aggressor, otherwise it was at best equal. Without at minimum dual wield 2 I don't see Dual wield I being very useful on Rdm and barely useful on Whm, and only for Tefnut/Templar. -
10-23-2011, 11:09 PMCamiie
Whether it's ideal or not, WAR, as the master of weapons, should have always had dual wield available natively. It just makes sense to me.
To me, it makes sense for BST to have access to it. I always envisioned the BST as not only fighting alongside a beast, but fighting kind of like one. I always kind of wondered why they didn't use claws when I first started. Dual wielding could come off as a "wilder" fighting style than an axe/shield and thus be fitting for a BST.
As for RDM and WHM, while it wouldn't bother me, it doesn't make as much sense really. RDMs are fencers (and should have Fencer trait, by the way) which screams "single sword only." WHM feels more natural with a club/shield. I just don't really envision a cleric type class dual wielding. -
10-23-2011, 11:46 PMSoranika
If I remember correctly, RDM use to be very deadly using a man hand sword, off hand dagger.... or was it the other way around? The current way RDM goes against what the job was envisioned to be. It's unfair to limit them to staves only.
As for WHM... Tefnut Want + augmented Genbu shield argument to not using a staff asside, does not need duel wield trait. Melee WHM are a novelty, but regular WHM can still survive just about anything through self curing. Curing speed, one of the most important things to me personally, makes subbing /RDM or /SCH much more preferable to subbing /NIN or /DNC.
I can understand where having a natural dual wield to every job is attractive, but it seems like a trait that would be out of place with much needed re-balance when you start to consider using another subjob. Nevermind the fact that BST are already one of the still one of the most self sufficient, solo jobs with even the most basic of gear. -
10-24-2011, 12:53 AMNala
on a side note there are a few more options other then a vulcan staff a RNG could use with dual weild and still sub something else like sam or war, so not all 1 handed jobs are capable of dual wielding.
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10-24-2011, 01:19 AMDaniel_HatcherBeing able to use all weapons doesn't make them masters of said weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camiie
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10-24-2011, 01:32 AMReiterpallasch
They could give RDM the highest tier of DW in the game, and they'd still be the lowest tier melee.
No it wouldn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
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10-24-2011, 01:57 AMMDenhamThe best cure potency shield is still worse than the second-best cure potency club (Templar Mace - +10%), so yes, it would, in that it means that the WHM can still come /SCH rather than having to show up /NIN or /DNC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch
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10-24-2011, 02:03 AMDaniel_HatcherHardly...Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch
10 words limit -
10-24-2011, 02:24 AMSoranikaYet it's already quite possible to cap healing magic easily through various equipment set ups and use of abilities. There's no reason to duel wield two clubs just just to go around to say "Oh look at how much cure potency I have. You ignore the one shield that matters though, aside from the cure potency augment. Genbu's shield can also have additional - curing cast time as well as -10% physical damage reduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDenham
Cure potency isn't the only thing that matters for a WHM. Speed and survivability should be equally important. But regardless, your argument is pretty flawed cause the only real purpose you have for duel wielding is stat boosting when it's a combat related trait and should honestly stay that way. -
10-24-2011, 02:38 AMDaniel_HatcherMacro's help with that. The quicker you cap Cure potency means more spaces open for MND, VIT and such.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soranika
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10-24-2011, 02:49 AMSoranika
Macro's can be pretty unreliable of your multitasking and limited in lines per macro command. I have to deal with that a lot on DNC. It's painful without using a spellcast and/or playing on consoles.
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10-24-2011, 03:31 AMDirtyfinger
As stated, if you're going to be using 1 handed weapons you're better off just going /NIN. WAR would get no benefit from having native DW as what sub would you recommend using from a DD standpoint? Yup NIN.
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10-24-2011, 06:20 AMAtomic_SkullSurya's staff +3: Cure potency +23%Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
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10-24-2011, 07:01 AMElphyI see you have never encountered a melee rdm that knows how to successfully melee with rdm. The best, No. But hardly the worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch
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10-24-2011, 07:07 AMAtomic_SkullAnd assuming player skill is equal exactly what jobs is a melee RDM better than?Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphy
Just being better than a garage sale THF wearing whatever he found in the laundry basket and dual wielding a thief's knife and heartsnatcher because he leveled it for TH and doesn't care does not mean that your damage doesn't suck. -
10-24-2011, 08:25 AMnoodles355
Oh great, another bloody rdm melee topic. Rdm, equally geared and played will always be worse at DD than a dedicated melee job, and every moron who says otherwise is trying to compare their view of a good rdm melee with a terrible [other DD].
My Rdm out-DDs Wars in Dom Op parties, does that make me better or equal to war as a job? Hell no. It just means I'm a better player than said Wars, and was I on War myself, I would be doing significantly more damge still.
As far as bst goes: You're complaining you have to make a choice of shadows+pet PDT-10% against being able to cure with MP? Big whoop-di-doop. Almost all jobs have to make choices and sacrifices through subjob choices. It's part of the game, get over it. -
10-24-2011, 08:33 AMTsukino_KajiQuote:
Originally Posted by MDenham
In 3rd edition there was a feat called swarm fighting which you could take as long as you weren't and larger then small. It gave you +1 to attack and damage for each other ally in "the swarm" that also had the feat. Ah the good old days of the ball of writhing halflings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hashmalum
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10-24-2011, 11:57 AMEconomizerSure, getting the best cure potency set you can with the Surya's Staff is easier to get then the best cure potency set you'd use with a Tefnut Wand, but using a Tefnut Wand will produce better cures. The math is very, very clear. As before, Dual Wield would benefit this - the best club is better then the best shield when gearing to cure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull
Until the Surya's Staff can bring some Mind to the table, or grips start to have large stat boosts, the Staff option just falls behind in a variety of cases. It won't make or break the mage to have them or not, but ultimately, arbitrarily shutting out the option for analysis just because you don't want someone you want to sit in the back to hold a weapon that shares a category with something that can actually do damage is not very wise.
I wasn't talking about comparing Dual Wield III to Dual Wield I or II. I was talking about comparing it to not having Dual Wield at all. Sometimes you can't limit your sub to Ninja or Dancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
White Mage melee certainly isn't a novelty if you are trying to solo anything as one. Curing yourself for five minutes won't kill a monster if you are the only one doing damage, even if you are casting every Divine Magic nuke and even Impact every chance you get. Not every situation in this game is an alliance battle versus mobs that will kill anything they look at that doesn't have over a few thousand health.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soranika
Of course, does a White Mage need Dual Wield natively? Does a Red Mage? Does Beastmaster? Again, like I said before, while it would be beneficial towards the classes, it does not necessarily make it happening a good idea from a flavor or balance standpoint. -
10-24-2011, 02:43 PMBabekekeWelcome to Red mage Melee theory: The only job in the game that can dual-wield 2 relic weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull
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10-24-2011, 02:51 PMEconomizerHate to be a buzz kill, but the hidden effects on Relic and Mythic weapons don't function when placed in the off hand, at least from what I've heard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
As before, this is in no way an endorsement for or against Red Mage melee, nor one for or against Dual Wield for jobs that don't have it natively. Just a statement of facts. -
10-24-2011, 03:01 PMUrthdigger
Honestly, I'm not surprised a RDM doesn't outparse "real" DD in a given situation. RDM can buff, cure themselves, and enfeeble the monster. For most real DD, dealing damage is pretty much all they do, with the only melee coming close in that department being DNC, but RDM has the better buffs, and it's not like DNC is top of the tier either. But on the other hand, I do not consider melee RDM useless.
I don't expect RDM to melee on high level NMs. You don't even want most of your real DDs to melee on those half the time. However, when farming pop items, or trying to get lights in abyssea, or fighting mooks in dynamis, or xping, or any other case where you're fighting monsters of only moderate difficulty, I have no problem with a RDM melee, assuming they're fulfilling their other duties as well. -
10-24-2011, 04:46 PMMDenhamEven without the hidden effects, that's still two very good weapons paired together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
This also isn't an endorsement for or against RDM melee, just a commentary on the commentary. -
10-24-2011, 06:54 PMQuetzacoatl
How 'bout I dual-wield facepalms to this thread
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10-24-2011, 07:29 PMDaniel_HatcherI love that one person remarks on something said about RDM and you call it a RDM Melee topic, Exaggeration much!?Quote:
Originally Posted by noodles355
Seriously WHM was mentioned too, should we call it a WHM Melee topic aswell? -
10-24-2011, 08:06 PMnoodles355One person remarked on Rdm melee? Exaggeration much!? Pot calling the kettle black?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher