New Thf Ability

since i've read a few of the ideas i've seen ppl put out on a new ability for thf, i decided to give it a shot myself.

Taunting Blows
recast: 5:00
Duration: 2:30 (or until SA or TA)
effect: Steals 5-10% enmity from all pt members in range and adds that directly to attacking power for the duration of the ability. landing SA while ability is up will result in accumulating double the enmity and wiping the attack buff. landing TA will result in transfering double the enmity to the pt member infront of you and wiping the attack buff.

i know the name sucks but this would help out with thf's tanking ability by getting a large hate boost while jacking up their base attack power a bit to keep the mob focused on them.

also if they lose hate for some reason they can then use SA to get another hate spike to get the mob back on them. in addition if the thf isn't tanking they can use TA to plant a solid amount of hate on whoever is tanking to keep the mob focused on them

feel free to comment/flame as you wish lol

Hmm, I look at the /JA conspirator and think "working together" NOT enmity steal. What if this move was a "reverse-cover"? That is rather than blocking damage directed at a target ala paladin, a thief conspirator increase damage while standing in front of a player, while absorbing enmity from that target?

this idea had nothing to do with conspirator, or anything like it. this was meant to work like collaborator/accomplice in the sense it steals hate from pt members. it would more than likely share a recast with them as well. what this would be more in use for would be to tank by obtaining a large chunk of hate by stealing a small chunk from the pt members in range.

on a side note, i was thinking the aoe range on the enmity steal should be around 15 yalms or so

thf needs a tool to get rid of some hate and not one that gives more to it >.>

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Originally Posted by Alukat

thf needs a tool to get rid of some hate and not one that gives more to it >.>

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I disagree completely.

Competent THFs are well-suited to serve both as enmity sinks and secondary tanks/DDs. With the upcoming adjustment to the effect range of Accomplice and Collaborator, THFs will have an even easier time draining accumulated enmity from mages. By conducting enmity, THFs can increase the stability of NM battles.

Few things are worse than uncontrolled, angry NMs nomming on panicked mages.

EDIT: And as a mage, I love Accomplice/Collaborator. Trust me, it's very noticeable when used, and I appreciate the extra breathing room in which to operate.

i know , i am mage too. but most time i have to wear enmity- gear (yep not haste gear) to be able to place sa once in a while for th effectiness, i even have to sa in tp gear otherwise the tank will lose hate and i am unable to do more sa afterwards.

enmity balance atm just gimps thfs.

how does getting hate on thf gimp us? even before abyssea, thf could and did tank fairly well. we're not heavy DD, never have been. yea we can't use SA as often anymore but what does it really matter when we already pump out 2-4k ws's unstacked.

also if you read all of the OP, you'd have noticed that the ability i suggested would give a drastic boost to the enmity dumped by TA'ing somebody. the ability was thought up with tanking and all round hate control in mind.

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Originally Posted by Zyla420

how does getting hate on thf gimp us?

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I believe Alukat is saying that getting hate gimps our TH procing abilitiy. IE THF is a better TH proc when it can ride SA/TA timers etc.

It also gimps our DD ability a bit but eh, tanking while TH procing in melee hits is still a useful function.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

I believe Alukat is saying that getting hate gimps our TH procing abilitiy. IE THF is a better TH proc when it can ride SA/TA timers etc.

It also gimps our DD ability a bit but eh, tanking while TH procing in melee hits is still a useful function.

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I believe Alukat is saying that s/he plays with people who have absolutely no idea how to properly gear and play a melee DD. It's not a game balance issue - it's a user input issue.

Accomplice and Collaborator do not increase THF's enmity cap above the norm. All DDs in Abyssea should reach and ride the enmity cap within a reasonable amount of time, and at that point, the target mob will regularly shift its focus amongst all the engaged DDs. An alert THF should be capable of moving about to land TA and SA. Even with 5/5 Sneak Attack merits, I personally have no issue riding the timer unless I'm being lazy or I'm the sole DD.

The game balance is fine as far as this issue is concerned. In fact, it's about to get better since the terribly short range on Accomplice/Collaborator will soon receive see a needed boost. THF should be as high as possible on a target mob's enmity list. It's not the responsibility of THFs to make absolutely ludicrous gear selections to accommodate the shortcomings of unacceptably geared/played DDs.

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Originally Posted by Alukat

i know , i am mage too. but most time i have to wear enmity- gear (yep not haste gear) to be able to place sa once in a while for th effectiness, i even have to sa in tp gear otherwise the tank will lose hate and i am unable to do more sa afterwards.

enmity balance atm just gimps thfs.

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Anyway, assuming this isn't a troll attempt >_>. If your only goal is to increase your treasure hunter effectiveness, You can do this while meleeing in not-terrible-gimp gear. This is actually more intelligent because you can upgrade TH with normal hits too. While a low rate, Its no excuse for gimping yourself to such an extreme that you remove haste armor for Enmity- gear.

The Hate cap is so low any good DD will be able to reach it in moments, including a THF, This means the mob will generally just look at the last person to hit him, So what you do is, Run to the other guy, Trick Attack, Turn around walk around the mob, hit SA. In the time it takes for you to run around the mob the other tank/guy should have hit the mob, giving him hate.

Its pretty simple, this has never failed me. I can always get SA and TA off so long as I'm with another tank. But if you're in a pick up group of obviously gimp people, Better off just running in for TA and SA if you're goal is TH upgrading. No need to melee in Enmity- armor.

Hate shedding abilities for THF aren't far-fetched (Hide), Its just simply something i would not see on our platters as planned adjustments. I'd rather they focus on giving us things to help us DD.

If we were going to discuss how "Enmity balance gimps thfs", I would rather SE spend time working on a sensible Hate/Enmity system than waste time giving THFs an ability to hate shed, that will not doubt be as situational as Enmity douse, with just as long of a timer, making it pretty pointless in the long run.

agree's with eeek 100% this ability would only help us do our job better in the long run

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Originally Posted by Zyla420

agree's with eeek 100% this ability would only help us do our job better in the long run

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By the way, I completely neglected to comment on your OP.

I think it's among the better proposed ideas in the THF forum. We know the Devs love ideas that tie into THF's manipulation of enmity, and this is a neat way to further manipulate enmity while providing THF a little damage boost. This could actually turn into a worthwhile JA if the Devs toy with the concept a bit.

thnx, i thought pretty hard about it cause it's kinda hard to give thf anything major that wouldn't break the job.

Didn't read all posts, but this could mpk the mages if they are missed by the aoe and the thf had very little enmity to begin with. I guess that adds a small element of balance.

I only had an issue with the concept of an AoE enimity grab. Just doesn't make sense that a thief has some mystical "sucker upper". I mention collaborator and other one because these also don't make sense. Thin in terms of a paladins "cover" job ability. The player needs to actually stand IN FRONT of another player to take hits for them. Paladins don't just magically suck up damage from a Mage.
Which is why, I thought thematically the opposite made more sense, which is a thief standing WITH someone and "collaborating" would gain a bonus to damage...think coordinated attacks.

People still don't know how trick attack works. You don't take the enmity you have and "give" it to a tank. Thieves simply create a lot of damage/enmity with a particular strike and whatever hate is generated with that one move is applied to whoever is in-between a mob and thief.

If your suggesting a new "move" instead of a move that someone absorbs everyone enmity in area, just have it be a job trait that increase enmity(think double) for trick attack. Alternately, a thief could conceivably be given a "hate reset" move which is similar to a mobs move.

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People still don't know how trick attack works. You don't take the enmity you have and "give" it to a tank.

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Everyone here knows that. If you're getting it otherwise you're just misreading us.

I don't deny some terrible players still misconstrue the concept of Trick attack, But us here understand it >_>

i'd also like to point out that this is a a fantasy game and concepts like collaborator/accomplice stealing hate from ppl don't have to "make sense". making this an ability that required specific positioning would only make it another ability that isn't used. how often do you actually see a pld use cover? why? cause most of 'em feel it's a pain in the ass to line up correctly most likely, or are too lazy to even bother to try.

as for a hate reset move, that's not a good idea at all. why would you willingly wanna reset hate on the target? you'd wipe the pt every time you used it. unless you mean it works like it does when the mob uses it, in which case i don't see what you're getting at. you want us to wipe hate and target another mob or something?

Well...let's say hate is all over the place due to Weaponskills and a tanking is having trouble keeping hate. Resetting the hate list would allow a tank to quickly gain hate without out damaging a Zerg. It's the same reason a mob has it, it forces players to stop zerging so that hate priority has to be reestablished somewhat mages don't die and mob lives a little longer.

it could also cause your mages to get pwnd, no thx

I'd just like to add...there's a reason scholar was given the "enmity" spells. They can manipulate gain or loss more easily then just giving thieves weird moves.

in what way is this move weird? it falls right in line with what thf does, which is hate manipulation. further more it gives us a small boost to our base attack power which is something alot of thf want, more dps. and even beyond that it gives a means to get hate off of us if we need to, again which alot of ppl want.

are you just against the fact that it's an aoe enmity steal? it's only 5-10% off anyone within range, which isn't alot, however collectively it adds up. this along with the attack power boost helps our tanking ability. for some reason you loose hate? SA, instant double enmity, albeit at the loss of the att buff. almost dead? TA nearest tank for double enmity on them, again at the loss of the att buff.

this is basically what all the thf have been asking for rolled into one. more hate control. more tanking ability. more dps. i see nothing weird or wrong with this at all.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

I disagree completely.

Competent THFs are well-suited to serve both as enmity sinks and secondary tanks/DDs. With the upcoming adjustment to the effect range of Accomplice and Collaborator, THFs will have an even easier time draining accumulated enmity from mages. By conducting enmity, THFs can increase the stability of NM battles.

Few things are worse than uncontrolled, angry NMs nomming on panicked mages.

EDIT: And as a mage, I love Accomplice/Collaborator. Trust me, it's very noticeable when used, and I appreciate the extra breathing room in which to operate.

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Agreed. I've always pictured (and played) THFs like the enmity-police...someone steps outta line with the the enimty (other that the tank). I take it away, and /slap them a warning in chat. ;)

Though, if the direction SE is taking with THFs is enmity management, I'd be looking forward to seeing what they will add in future updates to augment that.