Raise the minimum allowable job level in Abyssea from 30 to 70+

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

Seriously man, I willing to bet that you cheat like crazy. There's no way anyone would be so outspoken against it unless they did.

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And, given this player-base, why would you believe otherwise?

You see, this is one of the reasons I am so outspoken about cheating: It places the conduct of every player into question -- so why wouldn't you? I'm not saying you have cause to, but why wouldn't you?

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

I've organized a party where I brought in a 90 blm. Turned out he had levelled all 60 levels in 5 days, and his skills were at level 30ish. He did have his spells, because blm was not his 1st job and he had money. He cast a Blizzard V on Raskovnik for 154, yes 154 damage. He had claim, so I kicked him from the pt, and had the rest of the party all flux out and leave him to it. He was not invited back, and I told our rdm if he went to raise him he was not welcome back either.

Show up prepared to do your job in a reasonable manner or quit the game! THAT is why I despise low-level leeching. I don't even particularily like level sync. If a mob is a skillable mob relative to your level you should be able to skill, period.

Now, ask me how I feel about people who AFK...

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Kinda reminds me of that 75 BLM I saw in a YouTube video, who had ZERO magic skill at all.

You know, I read this and agree with every word (which is why I'll ask what my role is with a party if I am unclear on it), but I do wonder how many people in the game would openly respond with: "You must have a lot of trouble actually getting parties..."

@Starcade all what you saying just sound wrong, stop trying beat a dead beef.

I am skilled enough to built a 3 man party that would out beat any of your elitism party you ever made, how good are you? How good i am? answer is simple: Nor me or you care, and you can be sure none on this forum even care.

Do i join random party? Yes i do, do i like them every time? No. Do i stay in it: Depend.

Did you ever question yourself why they invited you in the party? Are you so good that they think, hey let invite this guy so we all can leech from him? No way, and if you are that a great player then why are you lfg?

Seriously man, quit this b$llsh!t because is now getting real annoying. i am also done derailing with you, because seriously all this go no where.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

That's a horrible comparison. botting directly correlates to ffxi. Fighting dogs has absolutely nothing to do with his ability to play football.

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Yes it does, actually, when you actually understand some of his backstory.

It also has to do with his popularity too. One of the reasons I've largely sworn off the NFL.

One's conduct ties into a lot more about a person than one thinks -- that's why it's a good comparison to many players in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

Yes it does, actually, when you actually understand some of his backstory.

It also has to do with his popularity too. One of the reasons I've largely sworn off the NFL.

One's conduct ties into a lot more about a person than one thinks -- that's why it's a good comparison to many players in FFXI.

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It's still a stretch for a comparison.

You're comparing cheating at the actual thing you're doing (botting = cheating in xi) vs what you do outside of the game. Dogs or not, he is still a good athlete. Am I a fan? no, but that doesn't make him suck because I don't care for the guy.

Chris brown is still a good singer and dancer. Him beating Rhiana has not changed that. Is he a good person? I don't think so, but he still has music and dance talent.

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Originally Posted by Ilax

@Starcade all what you saying just sound wrong, stop trying beat a dead beef.

I am skilled enough to built a 3 man party that would out beat any of your elitism party you ever made, how good are you? How good i am? answer is simple: Nor me or you care, and you can be sure none on this forum even care.

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I strongly disagree with that last clause (about others on the forum), for reasons I'm not sure you are aware.

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Originally Posted by Ilax

Do i join random party? Yes i do, do i like them every time? No. Do i stay in it: Depend.

Did you ever question yourself why they invited you in the party? Are you so good that they think, hey let invite this guy so we all can leech from him? No way, and if you are that a great player then why are you lfg?

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I usually don't, except in very specific cases where the group needs to fill a slot (which answers your other question)

I spend VERY LITTLE TIME LFG, because, in most cases, I don't even trust everyone in my linkshell!

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Originally Posted by Ilax

Seriously man, quit this b$llsh!t because is now getting real annoying. i am also done derailing with you, because seriously all this go no where.

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Bye. *waves*

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Chris brown is still a good singer and dancer. Him beating Rhiana has not changed that. Is he a good person? I don't think so, but he still has music and dance talent.

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By saying that, you endorse his conduct. His beating Rhianna ABSOLUTELY changed and invalidated ALL of his talent.

Just like the conduct of a lot of FFXI players forcing people to demand serious changes in how Abyssea works, because any good they might do is invalidated by, at best, lazy conduct -- if not outright illegal conduct.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

I've organized a party where I brought in a 90 blm. Turned out he had levelled all 60 levels in 5 days, and his skills were at level 30ish. He did have his spells, because blm was not his 1st job and he had money. He cast a Blizzard V on Raskovnik for 154, yes 154 damage. He had claim, so I kicked him from the pt, and had the rest of the party all flux out and leave him to it. He was not invited back, and I told our rdm if he went to raise him he was not welcome back either.

Show up prepared to do your job in a reasonable manner or quit the game! THAT is why I despise low-level leeching. I don't even particularily like level sync. If a mob is a skillable mob relative to your level you should be able to skill, period.

Now, ask me how I feel about people who AFK...

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I'm aware that stuff like this is a problem, but really, if they leveled up their BLM the normal way, they likely wouldn't have been worth a spot in your party anyway with the mindset that the player in question has. Their Elemental Magic would've been skilled, yes, but someone that thinks they can actually contribute after leeching a job and not ensuring that the proper skills have been leveled are likely going to be total douches even if they had it skilled.

For example, I leeched my BLU. I've always wanted to lvl BLU, but didn't want to go through the irritation of farming spells in the state the game used to be in. (Personal preferrence, by the way, in no way am I saying that those who did it the "proper way" shouldn't have.) Now that it's at 90, I have yet to party on it (exp or NMs or events or anything else) because I haven't yet acquired all the spells. I also will not party on it until I have done so. This is fine with me though, as I do it my off time, and I build seals/+2 items to make it that much better when I have gotten the spells. Hell, I even made up spreadsheets of which spells I'll want to set (when I have them all) for various situations and NM's.

The difference between that BLM and me is that I care. We both got to 90 by leeching, obviously, it hasn't had a negative impact on me. Leeching is not the problem, it's the players.

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By saying that, you endorse his conduct. His beating Rhianna ABSOLUTELY changed and invalidated ALL of his talent.

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That's what you assume. I don't endorse his conduct. I think what he did was terrible. Just because you do something terrible doesn't mean he can't sing.

There are plenty of horrible hearted people who still have skills. He is one of them.

When I speak of his talent, I'm making an unbiased judgment on that talent.

When you say "he is a bad person so his music sucks too" that is a biased judgment, which is worthless.

The example Glamdring gave about a level 90 blm with no skill is what I referred to earlier by the old way producing better players. Maybe I should have said overall skilled players. Look, I'm not saying they should get rid of the Abyssea way of exping. But as an LS leader, I have helped mediocre players become better players. This fake world is not much different than the real world: not everything fits neatly into a little box. Yes, some players are not teachable and they'll keep being idiots no matter what you do. Some players are naturally good at learning their jobs well. Most other people need some guidance to become good. Those are the players that can't do that by key whoring their way to 90. That I suppose is what I specifically meant by the old ways producing better players.

I'm slow at leveling jobs. Yes... once I hit 70 on that job, I hit abyssea up for the rest of my levels. I'm leveling smn right now - the first mage job I'm going to take all the way. I admit I don't know a whole heck of a lot about smn. Mine is 35. I'm purposely leveling the old way and by solo'ing exp pages so I can learn how to do my job. God knows, I don't want to be level 90 and not know what the hell I"m doing because I spent my time key whoring my levels. That's just my choice. Everyone is free to choose how they want to level. Hell, I saw a level 24 blu in a level sync duo in Qufim Island wearing his crafting body gear.

Point is, I know my limits and I try to strengthen my weaknesses as a player. I don't mind the struggle and the challenges of doing stuff the harder way. Keeps me from being bored. Veteran players who already have a bunch of jobs at 90 and don't want to spend lots of time leveling more jobs... have at it.

But level 90 noobs do piss me off along with many others. Abyssea just... seems to exenuate (sp?) the high level noobs. Seems you can't even really tell if those morons bought their accounts or not. lol

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

That's what you assume. I don't endorse his conduct. I think what he did was terrible. Just because you do something terrible doesn't mean he can't sing.

There are plenty of horrible hearted people who still have skills. He is one of them.

When I speak of his talent, I'm making an unbiased judgment on that talent.

When you say "he is a bad person so his music sucks too" that is a biased judgment, which is worthless.

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You're enabling him by basically supporting his work. He is a bad person, so the very fact he even makes music at all (and that he is even allowed to) sucks.

I mean, that gets back to the comment I made to someone else: If one believes similar to how you believe, a case could be made for the very positive contributions of RMT, griefers, botters, Windower, etc.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

I will admit that the learning curve may be more severe for them due to this, but this is irrelevant as the argument being made is to contest that Abyssea leeching breeds morons.

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My concern is primarily game balance, not idiots, concern addressed by the title of the thread. If something makes a given aspect of the game easier or harder in some significant way, it affects balance, would you not agree?

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If you want to get into this, I will admit that middle-ground players could stand to gain something from traditional parties, but I assert it is nowhere near necessary, nor will it have a hugely negative impact upon their overall performance, especially in the long run.

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In the very long term no, it does not. But it's kind of a slippery slope until you're trying to assert that levels aren't at all relevant, and difficulty of that entire half of the game is unimportant. Is it by choice? Sure. But a lot of the older player base intentionally signed up for an extremely difficult game, and this change especially seems to be creating a great deal of grief for them. (I'd play more Demon's Souls, but I like difficulty, not masochism.) From what I've learned through observation so far is that it removes a great deal of challenge on a very large scale.

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I'll admit it's easier for idiots to level. Yet at the same time it's easier for the smart players to gain levels as well.

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I think that may actually be why. A significant portion of the older player base appreciated the level of difficulty and discouragement that separated people like that. It's a form of elitism, sure, but it was for a hard fought battle to prove yourself capable.

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Maybe he's better at WHM than he was RDM, and quite possibly the only reason he leveled it was because of the ease and painlessness of leveling.

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Oh sure, easier leveling is a perfectly good reason to go out and do something you wouldn't. But the whole point I'm trying to make is that it's so extremely disproportionately easy to leech in Abyssea versus all the other methods, and that's hitting the nail on the head with my point about balance.

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We must have different ideas of what constitutes a gimp. I'm not speaking of an average or even somewhat below average player who may not know the formulas and may not know that certain drops even exist (I don't expect everyone to read as much as I do). I'm talking about the people who are frustratingly bad.

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A fascinating linguistic problem! Different servers appear to have different definition of the word 'gimp'. On Bahamut it tends to be thrown around over the most trivial deficiencies. (Ah BG, where would we be without your rampant elitism?)

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In this matter, however, I will refer to an above point: any reasonably intelligent person will still be able to pick up on these nuances even after burning to cap.

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Sure, I made a few remarks about players who didn't learn from leveling, and largely, you're right about that, eventually average players will figure it out. It's the idea that some of these people go straight from being 99 into endgame without any of the other effort into skill development or practice that bothers me and probably many others.

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I find literally zero challenge in beating up birds or crabs for hour on end. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way....

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The time consuming nature of the act could easily be argued as part of the challenge, and a significant part of the game to the older player base.

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...I also realize that the exp gained in that fashion does not compare to Abyssea leeching exp. I'm all for buffing the exp obtained from other areas, in whatever way(s) would work....

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I have zero problem with people leveling the way they want to, and also have zero problem with making changes to enable these methods to being more equal. But the way I want to level is by leeching.

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Which is the point I'm trying to make about game balance...effort != reward. Leeching gives so much reward to any other form of effort or time, that either other methods need to be increased to make the ratio par, or rewards for leeching should be decreased to make it proportional to it's effort. If you like leveling by leeching, then someone who kills mobs solo should get twice as much experience as you.

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Furthermore, if you agree that Abyssea leeching is not the problem, you're agreeing that it's ultimately the idiots that are the problem.

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Nope. Abyssea leeching isn't the problem. The reward disparity is. Idiots are just an unpleasant side effect.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

You're enabling him by basically supporting his work. He is a bad person, so the very fact he even makes music at all (and that he is even allowed to) sucks.

I mean, that gets back to the comment I made to someone else: If one believes similar to how you believe, a case could be made for the very positive contributions of RMT, griefers, botters, Windower, etc.

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Not at all, because every one of those things you listed has a direct effect on FFXI. Chris Brown beating Rhiana has 0 affect on his musical talent.

Totally unrelated. and if by supporting, you mean downloading his music and him getting nothing, then yes, I support him very much.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

By saying that, you endorse his conduct. His beating Rhianna ABSOLUTELY changed and invalidated ALL of his talent.

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Incorrect. Talent is not an opinion. Perhaps how talented is, but that's different.

Somewhat related example: I hate country music. I find it annoying and I can't stand to listen to it. This does not make all country musicians bad. In fact, despite the fact that I can't stand the genre I do recognize that some of them are quite talented and creative, and very good at what they do. I still don't like it.

Talent is objective. The guy you are talking about can't suddenly not sing anymore. His vocal chords are still there and work exactly as they did before. Now, they guy himself is a douche. And I fully understand not supporting him and refusing to buy his stuff or even listen to it because of his actions. In fact I'd say you'd be right to do so. But despite how much you hate him, and his actions, it does not take away from his ability to sing. Perhaps his ability to stay famous and keep making money, yes, if enough people boycott him or he gets too much bad PR.

If it turns out that some document that's verified to be true and legitimate gets discovered exposing Beethoven or Bach as anti-semites, does this suddenly mean that all their music is horrible and invalidate everything their music has done for the world? All the inspiration they've provided genuine, good (as in good people) artists and/or bands, everything they unintentionally helped create over history, and the people they inspired to go on and make other beautiful and touching music should all be regarded as horrible trash that doesn't deserve to be sold, or put in movies, or ringtones, or games any longer?

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Not at all, because every one of those things you listed has a direct effect on FFXI. Chris Brown beating Rhiana has 0 affect on his musical talent.

Totally unrelated. and if by supporting, you mean downloading his music and him getting nothing, then yes, I support him very much.

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Then you're clearly enabling him, and, hence, no longer worthy of my time.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

Incorrect. Talent is not an opinion. Perhaps how talented is, but that's different.

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I disagree with that entirely. It's kind of the matter of one person's garbage being another person's treasure.

Talent is entirely an opinion, be it music, acting, sports, FFXI, or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

If it turns out that some document that's verified to be true and legitimate gets discovered exposing Beethoven or Bach as anti-semites, does this suddenly mean that all their music is horrible and invalidate everything their music has done for the world? All the inspiration they've provided genuine, good (as in good people) artists and/or bands, everything they unintentionally helped create over history, and the people they inspired to go on and make other beautiful and touching music should all be regarded as horrible trash that doesn't deserve to be sold, or put in movies, or ringtones, or games any longer?

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I don't think you want my answer to that. I once read someone's Twitter account who basically called on all who read her account to support Planned Parenthood because of the government cutting funding to it.

A couple days later, she found out who was behind PP, and, hence, was forced to invalidate that stand because of the people behind it.

Yes, that degree of repulsion would invalidate it, yes.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

Then you're clearly enabling him, and, hence, no longer worthy of my time.

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Biased opinions are like biased news sources, worthless.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

I disagree with that entirely. It's kind of the matter of one person's garbage being another person's treasure.

Talent is entirely an opinion, be it music, acting, sports, FFXI, or whatever.



I don't think you want my answer to that. I once read someone's Twitter account who basically called on all who read her account to support Planned Parenthood because of the government cutting funding to it.

A couple days later, she found out who was behind PP, and, hence, was forced to invalidate that stand because of the people behind it.

Yes, that degree of repulsion would invalidate it, yes.

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Is the Pope completely worthless (as a person and religious figure, not asking about personal beliefs in the slightest, and don't care to know)? Crusades and all.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

Is the Pope completely worthless (as a person and religious figure, not asking about personal beliefs in the slightest, and don't care to know)? Crusades and all.

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The Pope is really old but I don't think he was around for the Crusades.

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Originally Posted by Randwolf

The Pope is really old but I don't think he was around for the Crusades.

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And the people that Beethoven and Bach inspired would have had zero to do with their views, but it counts cuz Starcade said so!

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

Is the Pope completely worthless (as a person and religious figure, not asking about personal beliefs in the slightest, and don't care to know)? Crusades and all.

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You don't even have to go back to the Crusades on that one. Clergy sexual abuse, anyone?

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Originally Posted by Starcade

Then you're clearly enabling him, and, hence, no longer worthy of my time.

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Your reasoning is stupid. I am sure that Chris Brown is a talented musician and can sing quite well. I'm also sure that he's a terrible person because he beat his girlfriend and therefore I won't buy his music. Recognising his talent does not enable him, buying his music does.

The same thing goes for FF11 players. Recognising they are bad because of Abyssea is not the same thing as enabling them by inviting them to groups. If I think they're bad I'm not going to do things with them.

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Originally Posted by HFX7686

Your reasoning is stupid. I am sure that Chris Brown is a talented musician and can sing quite well. I'm also sure that he's a terrible person because he beat his girlfriend and therefore I won't buy his music. Recognising his talent does not enable him, buying his music does.

The same thing goes for FF11 players. Recognising they are bad because of Abyssea is not the same thing as enabling them by inviting them to groups. If I think they're bad I'm not going to do things with them.

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It's not simply because of Abyssea, though -- it's because some of these players have no business in FFXI in the first place.

As far as Chris Brown goes, even recognizing he has talent is more than he deserves at this point -- and that's not unlike a lot of the aforementioned people in FFXI.

You should practice what you preach and stop playing FFXI. You clearly don't deserve to, by your own standards.

I can't believe you guys argued over Chris Brown and the definition of talent for so long. Arguing over semantics? Really?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You should practice what you preach and stop playing FFXI. You clearly don't deserve to, by your own standards.

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I know, right, Starcade obviously bots harder than anyone else. He's probably the guy that wrote some of the bots; that's why he's trying act all internet-tough-guy against it.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

I know, right, Starcade obviously bots harder than anyone else. He's probably the guy that wrote some of the bots; that's why he's trying act all internet-tough-guy against it.

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Starcade = Wizbutt? :O

Isn't it obvious? lol

He's so outrageously anti-botting that he obviously makes them, and his attitude and self-righteousness fits with the attitude.

Excellent Point. Well spoken... I meant towards HFX7686

I would suggest an immediate demand for investigation of my account by the GM's and STF if you truly believe that.

But I've said it for over two years now: Why WOULDN'T one believe that any given player would attempt to compromise fair play?

That's why I get so pissed at the jackalopes and botters and slime: No player can state themselves legitimate and not have people such as these challenge it -- so I dare you to actually challenge it and attempt to have me removed from FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

I would suggest an immediate demand for investigation of my account by the GM's and STF if you truly believe that.

But I've said it for over two years now: Why WOULDN'T one believe that any given player would attempt to compromise fair play?

That's why I get so pissed at the jackalopes and botters and slime: No player can state themselves legitimate and not have people such as these challenge it -- so I dare you to actually challenge it and attempt to have me removed from FFXI.

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Maybe you should stick to talking about Chris Brown. lol

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Originally Posted by Starcade

I would suggest an immediate demand for investigation of my account by the GM's and STF if you truly believe that.

But I've said it for over two years now: Why WOULDN'T one believe that any given player would attempt to compromise fair play?

That's why I get so pissed at the jackalopes and botters and slime: No player can state themselves legitimate and not have people such as these challenge it -- so I dare you to actually challenge it and attempt to have me removed from FFXI.

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If you're smart enough to make the bots that you did, then you probably have covered your tracks fairly well. Or made sure to not use them in a manner that would get you discovered. Or have some sort of excuse lined up (like all these posts, it's obvious you're trying to create your own alibi or at least evidence to the contrary).

Besides, I don't have enough evidence to initiate something like that. Your attitude, posts and actions make it fairly obvious, yet I doubt the STF would actually do an investigation based on that.

It's kinda like Arthur Leigh Allen, everyone involved pretty much knew he was the Zodiac, but there never enough information to convict him... I'm not even sure if he was ever even arrested.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

It's not simply because of Abyssea, though -- it's because some of these players have no business in FFXI in the first place.

As far as Chris Brown goes, even recognizing he has talent is more than he deserves at this point -- and that's not unlike a lot of the aforementioned people in FFXI.

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If their accounts are paid for then they have business to be in FF11.

I'm not sure how anyone can deserve or not deserve to play FF11. You either pay for it or you don't pay for it. Deserve doesn't really come into the picture.

while a 3rd thread is unnecessary I do believe abyssea level requirement should be raised for various reasons.
first and foremost for the exp parties. People who have a job above 30 will refuse to join an exp party that isn't in abyssea, and this will cause any player who doesn't want to burn their job to get stuck in qufim island or kazham (because all the other ppl partying will be under 30 as they can't go in abyssea).
on second place, less exp parties hurt the economy. I'm on Siren and the crystals here raised to awful prices because with less exp parties, crystals are more rare (not all crafters want to go farm their clusters).
More pricey crystals means more expensive consumable items (10k for a stack of shihei), and less mid-level gear (because the crafters can't sell them anymore at a worthy price and rate, as key-whores will skip that armor to wear cruor armor when they hit 78).
So yeah, please raise the level required to access abyssea for the sake of all those who like to exp a job in a party and learn how it works, instead of trading keys to a chest for hours and hours.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

If you're smart enough to make the bots that you did, then you probably have covered your tracks fairly well. Or made sure to not use them in a manner that would get you discovered. Or have some sort of excuse lined up (like all these posts, it's obvious you're trying to create your own alibi or at least evidence to the contrary).

Besides, I don't have enough evidence to initiate something like that. Your attitude, posts and actions make it fairly obvious, yet I doubt the STF would actually do an investigation based on that.

It's kinda like Arthur Leigh Allen, everyone involved pretty much knew he was the Zodiac, but there never enough information to convict him... I'm not even sure if he was ever even arrested.

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Wow this is a remarkably useless and low accusation. I'm impressed by the daring to say such a thing w/out expecting to be laughed into shame... then again, this is the internet.

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Originally Posted by Kjara

while a 3rd thread is unnecessary I do believe abyssea level requirement should be raised for various reasons.
first and foremost for the exp parties. People who have a job above 30 will refuse to join an exp party that isn't in abyssea, and this will cause any player who doesn't want to burn their job to get stuck in qufim island or kazham (because all the other ppl partying will be under 30 as they can't go in abyssea).
on second place, less exp parties hurt the economy. I'm on Siren and the crystals here raised to awful prices because with less exp parties, crystals are more rare (not all crafters want to go farm their clusters).
More pricey crystals means more expensive consumable items (10k for a stack of shihei), and less mid-level gear (because the crafters can't sell them anymore at a worthy price and rate, as key-whores will skip that armor to wear cruor armor when they hit 78).
So yeah, please raise the level required to access abyssea for the sake of all those who like to exp a job in a party and learn how it works, instead of trading keys to a chest for hours and hours.

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tl;dr: you don't like it, so you want to force everyone to play with you.

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Originally Posted by Xilk

Wow this is a remarkably useless and low accusation. I'm impressed by the daring to say such a thing w/out expecting to be laughed into shame... then again, this is the internet.

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And to consider how many of Fiarlia's friends probably cheat like Hell (I'll leave it at a "probably"...)...

The thing is, people don't get what I've been trying to say for over two years now:

There is no legitimacy in FFXI with the present player-base. Fraud is rampant, all over the game, both on the part of the players and the part of Square-Enix.

Why wouldn't someone who badly needs people like me to STFU and GO AWAY make that kind of an accusation?

But to get back to the thread, this is one of the reasons why you have a bunch of AFK leeches who will sap up all the XP until they get caught, because they had no desire to legitimately play the game at all.

Remember: A lot of the people who got banned are many of the biggest heroes in the community -- and the illegal conduct is part of that (positive) reputation.

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Originally Posted by rog

tl;dr: you don't like it, so you want to force everyone to play with you.

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No. In fact, one has to wonder if one would be a stickler (like me) that one would have to question the legality of a certain amount of this leeching.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

legality

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I don't think that word means what you think it means.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

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Actually it does, but he's an idiot anyway.