Thoughts on the FFXI Job Adjustment Manifesto

I agree. It balances out quite nicely, considering you spend practically the time you gain from Alacrity/Celerity just using all the stratagems.

I'm fine with stratagems taking up a few seconds before every cast, it means I can have 50% mp usage, 50% recast time, and 25% more damage to my nukes in the same amount of time that a BLM would cast one spell with manafont.

EDIT: Not that we're trying to out-do BLM or anything. It is just a 2hr spell after all.

More SCH news today. I'm home sick, so I'll post my little translation. :)

Just like PUPs yesterday, the dev team decided to give us an idea of what they are thinking about for us on the road to 99. I'm . . . well. Take a look for yourself.

1. Have Light Arts affect Regen effects and Dark Arts affect Helix spell effects.
2. Adjust the levels at which Regen III/IV are learned.
3. Adjust the levels at which Helix spells are learned and adjust MP cost.
4. Adjust the recast for Modus Veritas.
5. Adjust the effect duration of Klimaform.
6. Tabula Rasa adjustments.

Also, the version update is confirmed for next Monday.

I am happy that some of these changes are directly from the feedback we've been giving them.

I guess this confirms that we will be receiving Regen IV. (I don't see why they would comment on adjustments to the WHM spells in the SCH forum).

However, I'm very concerned about item #3. I really do not see the need for Helix spells to become subable. I assume they are doing this because we will receive Tier II helix spells but I really don't see the need to adjust the Tier I helices. This is particularly true if the change to Dark Arts will be available via /SCH. I think I would have rather this change be made for weather spells so that we could receive double weather effects.

I also hope that the boost to Klimaform is for SCH main. It seems as though the spell is going to be available from /SCH. I would hope that our AF spell could be better utilized by SCH mains.

I still see no mention of adjusting Aldoquium or Animus spells either :/ It is a start though. Let's keep reminding them of our issues!

And just as an FYI, the Japanese Scholars are NOT happy!

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

And just as an FYI, the Japanese Scholars are NOT happy!

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This is really what I was afraid of when they said they'd be paying more attention to SCH. Another move in the style of past adjustments - sounds promising at first, then the result is a letdown.

1. Regen and Helix adjustments again could be nice, or lolmehwhocares. As usual they say "affect" with no indication of in what way or how much. I really wish they wouldn't mention it at all. It makes me hope for the best and fear the worst, which I'm really sick of at this point. To make me even care about Regen light arts would have to increase the potency, reduce casting time more and increase duration without purpetuance, especially if this is the help we're getting in the healing department without Cure V.

2. I also hope this means we get Regen IV, but again "adjust" is meaningless. They might as well say "We're going to do something with something." ><

3. I agree with you on Helix levels. I don't want other jobs subbing these or subbing them myself on other jobs. I also agree I'd rather see this with weather so all jobs can sub all tier 1 storms, but SCH main can then boost them to tier two with a geomancy spell or JA.

4 and 5 sound OK but not exciting. I'm not looking forward to MV missing every 5 minutes instead of 10. Maybe if it were 2 minutes. Again I agree Klimaform should not be boosted as a subjob spell. I don't mind that it's available to subs but it should be more potent in SCH's hands.

As far as Adloquium is concerned, I keep thinking about this in relation to Embrava. If you think about it, they took the suggestions we've had for Regen, Regain and Haste and mashed them up into one spell we can only use as a 2 hour. Want to AOE Haste? OK, every two hours. Want a higher tier regen? OK, every two hours. Want a more potent Adloquium? OK, every two hours.

I wouldn't be surprised if SE added tier 2 weather effects for SCH now given this new trend. Except we can only grant the effect every 3rd real life day on a full moon. Oh, and only under Tabula Rasa ... and they can miss ...

Just posting to say that sasa and merton said everything i was thinking.

I got some info to give you all an idea of what the development is already working on for future scholar adjustments.

The next job adjustment focus will be on Light Arts and Dark Arts.
Below is the concept:

1. Make adjustments so that Light Arts affects the effect of Regen and Dark Arts affects the effect of Helix spells
2. Adjust the level Regen III/IV are learned
3. Adjust the level Helix spells are learned as well as their MP cost
4. Adjust the recast timer of Modus Veritas
5. Adjust the effect duration of Klimaform
6. Make adjustments to Tabula Rasa

We will be posting more information here on the forum as well as adding things to the test server some time after the September version update.

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

I wouldn't be surprised if SE added tier 2 weather effects for SCH now given this new trend. Except we can only grant the effect every 3rd real life day on a full moon. Oh, and only under Tabula Rasa ... and they can miss ...

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LOL I died. I'm sure that's what they mean by "6. Tabula Rasa adjustments. "

Speaking of. . . I love the fact that our 2HR is getting buffed, but really . . .? They can't find something more important to change? I am perfectly happy with the new adjustments to Tabula Rasa that are coming on Monday.

I also want to say that I agree with everything sasa and merton are saying. It also gives me some comfort to know that the JP scholars are just as annoyed as we are.

Wondering if helix spells are going to become sub-able

what happened to adjustments to Light and Dark arts effects scaleing to the level of the scholar like casting time/recast time reduced, and mp cost reduced as level increase. Is that still coming...?

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Originally Posted by Oscar71

Wondering if helix spells are going to become sub-able

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They wont be done to learn later, so one or two may be sub-able. I see the only reason for this so they can add tier-2 helix's later down the line.

Also what use is recast of Modus Veritas being "adjusted" if the ability still never lands on anything?

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

They wont be done to learn later, so one or two may be sub-able. I see the only reason for this so they can add tier-2 helix's later down the line.

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It's probably to trigger on voidwatch with /sch at least on the yellow portion

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Originally Posted by Kogenta

It's probably to trigger on voidwatch with /sch at least on the yellow portion

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Yeah, but Helix's are unique to SCH if they didn't add tier II then they've removed another unique thing to SCH. They might as well just remove the job if they continued that way.

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Originally Posted by Camate

6. Make adjustments to Tabula Rasa

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Isn't Tabula Rasa already "adjusted" with the new stuff currently on the test server and scheduled for late september?
Or is this exactely what you mean?
Hope those "adjustements" don't mean you're gonna nerf how Tabula Rasa works on the test server, because I'm personally loving it a lot :)

Maybe the development team can start by explaining exactly what the Empyrean body enhancments are for Scholar. Seems strange that they're leaving it so open right now. "something to do with enmity" is vague at best.

I remember in the .dats that there were 4 spell animations added that people though might be tier II storm or helix spells, I forget which now. Maybe they're going to add dual element ones.

The best SCH adjustment to Modus Veritas they can do it make it land on anything worthwhile, especially since it's a Voidwatch proc. Or just remove it as a Voidwatch proc all together, the whole concept of making a 10min JA that will most likely miss as a proc in a 30min fight is pretty ridiculous.
Still, these adjustments are great. I don't think Helix spells will be subbable, I see it as they'll just make all 8 of them learnable at the same level. The adjustment to Klimaform is gonna break the AF3 Feet even further.

I think the DEV team should seriously consider a cure type helix spell.

Unlike storm spells, Helix spells don't really have to be sub useable. Ancient Magic is not sub usable, it is purely a Black Mage thing.

There is a big difference, since support magic tends to be subbed.

Getting tier 2 Helix spells does not mean Scholar has to share Helix spells, but getting tier 2 Storm spells would probably be overpowered unless every tier 1 Storm spell was sub usable.

Another thing that makes sense to request is Klimaform 2 or a way for SCH main to boost it, since it is now sub usable. Tier 2 weather spells should do this ideally though. Saying that other jobs shouldn't get this is like expecting White Mage to have Regen IV removed when Scholar gets it however.

What would a klimaform 2 do though? Same thing just last longer? Double the amount of +macc?

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Originally Posted by Raksha

What would a klimaform 2 do though? Same thing just last longer? Double the amount of +macc?

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I don't know that more mACC could be added, but it could do any number of other things, like Conserve MP, Magical Crit rate plus, increased duration to helix spells, or even a Conserve Stratagem trait. Conserve Stratagem would work much like Conserve MP on spells matching the weather, giving a chance to refund the Stratagems used on that spell.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

I don't know that more mACC could be added, but it could do any number of other things, like Conserve MP, Magical Crit rate plus, increased duration to helix spells, or even a Conserve Stratagem trait. Conserve Stratagem would work much like Conserve MP on spells matching the weather, giving a chance to refund the Stratagems used on that spell.

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Might as well call it something else then.

it could be extended to work on job abilities, i know im personally supersticious about using it for modus veritus and i have managed to land it on T4 vwnm many a time. it is good to see that my report was not made in vain though, kudos SE.

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Originally Posted by Camate

I got some info to give you all an idea of what the development is already working on for future scholar adjustments.

The next job adjustment focus will be on Light Arts and Dark Arts.
Below is the concept:

1. Make adjustments so that Light Arts affects the effect of Regen and Dark Arts affects the effect of Helix spells
2. Adjust the level Regen III/IV are learned
3. Adjust the level Helix spells are learned as well as their MP cost
4. Adjust the recast timer of Modus Veritas
5. Adjust the effect duration of Klimaform
6. Make adjustments to Tabula Rasa

We will be posting more information here on the forum as well as adding things to the test server some time after the September version update.

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1- Just affect the regen? something tells me this wont mean anything (prolly not even clsoe to the regen hlix ppl are talking about) also this will prolly affect sub thus removing it being exclusivity to sch so meh, the helix effect thign im not sure what to say, i have no faith in helixes at current.
2- not sure what the lv regen is learned matters at this point
3- hope this means they are going to either add helix 2 or something cuz otherwise what does it matter? or they going to give it as subjob like they like giving all our spells to sub lvl.
4- timer could be good if they actually make it land
5- klimaform duration would be mouthwateringly yummy
6- more 2hr adjustments, more then this update? hope its just as sweet.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Another thing that makes sense to request is Klimaform 2 or a way for SCH main to boost it, since it is now sub usable. Tier 2 weather spells should do this ideally though. Saying that other jobs shouldn't get this is like expecting White Mage to have Regen IV removed when Scholar gets it however.

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Actually they are two entirely different things. One is an artifact spell that like all other artifacts in the game should be job exclusive. The other is one spell in a line of spells that is shared by multiple jobs. They really aren't comparable.

There is no reason to remove Regen IV from WHM however. I do not see the rationale behind that either.

I have been advocating a Klimaform 2 type spell for some time now. I think it is absolutely necessary now since the spell will be usable from /SCH. It should give a different bonus depending on which weather the player has, i.e. magical crit rate, conserve mp, -mdt, etc.

I also welcome changes to Light/Dark Arts, but they should be for SCH main only. The current bonuses should remain for /SCH. It is a fantastic subjob and should stay that way.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

Actually they are two entirely different things. One is an artifact spell that like all other artifacts in the game should be job exclusive. The other is one spell in a line of spells that is shared by multiple jobs. They really aren't comparable.

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No other job has an artifact weapon of any sort that is useful by level 90, so you can't really compare Klimaform to other artifact weapons either. At best, it can be compared to something one job has had, like Refresh.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

No other job has an artifact weapon of any sort that is useful by level 90, so you can't really compare Klimaform to other artifact weapons either. At best, it can be compared to something one job has had, like Refresh.

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Usefulness is irrelevant. The spell was included within the artifact line of quests for SCH. As such, it is a piece of artifact. No other job has an artifact that can be used by other jobs. Whether you view the spell as useful or not does not change that fact.

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Originally Posted by Rexen

Maybe the development team can start by explaining exactly what the Empyrean body enhancments are for Scholar. Seems strange that they're leaving it so open right now. "something to do with enmity" is vague at best.

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Didn't they already find it out?
When you're in Grimoire and you use spells related to your current Arts you have a chance that the spell will generate 0 enmity.

So for example you're in Light Arts and using Cure IV? You have a low chance your Cure IV will generate zero enmity.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I think the DEV team should seriously consider a cure type helix spell.

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I'd love it so much! Altough in all honesty it wouldn't solve the issues SCH have with the need of a spell stronger than CureIV.
A healing Helix would be a fresh and new concept in FFXI, but it's something we've seen in many other MMORPG (a HoT that heals a small amount at start, and keeps healing the target for a while) but it wouldn't really represent the solution to that issue, would it?

Follow up today from Foxclon to some of the concerns from the JP Scholars. (I told you they weren't happy! hehe)

(S)he says that they are thinking of making the adjustments to the grimoire for SCH main only. Foxclon also says that in the future they are thinking of adding a higher tier Regen spell and are planning on making it SCH exclusive.

This has potential if it heals enough HP over time. In conjunction with Cure IV, enhancing spells and hopefully some more buffs to Light Arts, that just might be enough. SCH won't be as safe a healer or as skilled at healing multiple members as WHM, but could be a passable healer on some harder content. I am fine with that. WHM should be the best healer in just about every situation, but I think having a viable second choice on more content is a good thing.

The question then becomes, will we also see improvements to the spells that we've been asking for since they were first implemented? Will the TP down spell actually be useful? Will Stormsurge be improved? Realistically, the job will need more than just a better healing spell to be invited for it's Light Arts. Why would you ever sacrifice the superior healing (and enhancing) capabilities of a WHM to invite a SCH? The answer would have to be that in exchange for losing some healing capacity, the SCH brings with it useful enhancing and enfeebling magic. Embrava is great but we'll need a bit more to warrant a spot. (The other answer of course is, "We couldn't find a WHM." Given how popular that job is, I can't imagine that often being a problem).

The other option of course is to make it worthwhile/necessary to have back-up healers in parties again. That is an issue that goes far beyond SCH main problems. And with the direction the team seems to be going, I think they are setting up RDM to fill that spot. I'm not sure how successful that will be however. It would be interesting if the new magic/abilities added made RDM + SCH a desirable combo. (As it stands now that combo is pretty redundant.) The jobs should provide the best enfeebling spells and very strong enhancing buffs. This is all in theory of course. Both jobs need some work to make that a reality.

As far as Dark Arts is concerned, I think the job really only needs minor tweaks. Modus Veritas aside, I'd only really like a slight fast cast added to the grimoire. Tier II storms would be more useful for curing imo, but I would welcome them and I'm sure the rest of the community would not mind if the remaining weathers became available via /SCH. It seems like tier II helices are on the way as well. Again, a welcomed addition but really only a perk.

I think Regen IV (and possibly Regen III too) are strong enough already. The main concern I have with HoTs in FFXI is the fact that they don't last enough (no, I'm not taking into account Perpetuance of course).
Having an exclusive to SCH HoT that heals as much as Regen III (or even slightly less) but does a big tick at start and lasts double the time regen does would be enough for me, probably.

That is a valid point. With AF3+2 head I think Regen IV would heal 34HP per tic. With gear and merits a WHM can increase this to 39HP/tic for 75 seconds. I don't think that 40HP+ is too much to ask for. I like the idea of the healing helix doing a a big tic at the start. If that is not implemented, perhaps a mild passive bonus could be added for the duration of the helix - something like shining ruby.

The other concern with these kind of spells (and this goes for WHM too) is the long casting time and as you mention, the duration of the spell.

The current casting times I could deal with if the spell lasted long enough. 60 seconds is not enough, imho.

The duration is a problem, but also as a main healer it can be a bit risky to spend 5 seconds casting a regen spell if you are fighting anything dangerous. A lot can happen in those few seconds. That is party of the reason why I don't use those spells during battle.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

Didn't they already find it out?
When you're in Grimoire and you use spells related to your current Arts you have a chance that the spell will generate 0 enmity.

So for example you're in Light Arts and using Cure IV? You have a low chance your Cure IV will generate zero enmity.

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I never saw any testing that indicated this, only speculation.

I think I saw some moderate testing on BG? But maybe I'm just thinking about something else.


@Sasa
fair point, that's why if regen effects were to last long it would be easier to find a moment to place it on targets. But anyway, let's see what happens with the adjustements to Light Arts, hopefully it will be about speedcasting and lasting, instead of just potency ;)

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

I think I saw some moderate testing on BG? But maybe I'm just thinking about something else.

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I've kept my eye open for info ever since it was released, and I haven't come across it. There was a lot of testing in the final magian empyrean armor thread but no confirmations of any effect(s). if it was posted in the random question thread I might've missed it, but none of the wikis have any links to testing.

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Originally Posted by Camate

I got some info to give you all an idea of what the development is already working on for future scholar adjustments.

The next job adjustment focus will be on Light Arts and Dark Arts.
Below is the concept:

1. Make adjustments so that Light Arts affects the effect of Regen and Dark Arts affects the effect of Helix spells
2. Adjust the level Regen III/IV are learned
3. Adjust the level Helix spells are learned as well as their MP cost
4. Adjust the recast timer of Modus Veritas
5. Adjust the effect duration of Klimaform
6. Make adjustments to Tabula Rasa

We will be posting more information here on the forum as well as adding things to the test server some time after the September version update.

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o_o Amazing.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

o_o Amazing.

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more like a-meh-zing

Will have to wait and see though.

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Originally Posted by Camate

I got some info to give you all an idea of what the development is already working on for future scholar adjustments.

The next job adjustment focus will be on Light Arts and Dark Arts.
Below is the concept:

1. Make adjustments so that Light Arts affects the effect of Regen and Dark Arts affects the effect of Helix spells
2. Adjust the level Regen III/IV are learned
3. Adjust the level Helix spells are learned as well as their MP cost
4. Adjust the recast timer of Modus Veritas
5. Adjust the effect duration of Klimaform
6. Make adjustments to Tabula Rasa

We will be posting more information here on the forum as well as adding things to the test server some time after the September version update.

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If nothing else, this post is an excellent example of when to use the words "affect" and "effect". Folks don't call Camate a linguist for nothing!

I think it's safe to assume that everything is so vague because exact ideas are still being hammered out, so it seems a little early to start complaining. They're headed in the right direction by making spells and abilities unique to Scholar more potent or easily used, at least, so I'm okay with waiting to see exactly what they're going to do.

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Originally Posted by Raksha

I've kept my eye open for info ever since it was released, and I haven't come across it. There was a lot of testing in the final magian empyrean armor thread but no confirmations of any effect(s). if it was posted in the random question thread I might've missed it, but none of the wikis have any links to testing.

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there was testing on BG (please dont ask for a link as i do not have it, i did not think i would have to keep it for proof) using libra and i think dia, dont quote me on the spell used. the spell occasionally generated no enmity.