Enmity imbalance?

Basically, if I had to fight an entire PT, I'd kill the healer first, regardless off anything the other people do. :p
So, it kinda make sense.

The only way to really protect a healer should be to prevent the monster from reaching him, via collision. Enmity generating abilities are the substitute since it's much simpler to implement. :p

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Originally Posted by Himrik

Maybe you're right.
I just looked at the french forum and the level difference is not even mentionned, so maybe the only change is the range of the ratio. A simple case of blurry translation :p

Now, I wonder if the formula is changed only for monsters or for us, too. It would be pretty neat if the damage output skyrocket for those DD with great attack buffs.

By the way, there is another translation problem. The english forum mentions "an enmity reduction by approximately thirty percent" whereas the french one translates an "enmity reduction to 30% of what is was before", so, basically, 70% drop in enmity gain.

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In Adoulin, there is no LCF. Outside Adoulin, there is no longer a LCF for a monster's att to player's def. And that is the only cap that changed outside adoulin. Players cannot get a 4 x cap, but 1-hand and H2H caps went up to 2.25 the same as 2H.

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Originally Posted by Oddwaffle

Err.. no that is wrong. I still take similar damage without berserk by using counterstance. Unless you really really want SE to remove counterstance and put it with Footwork (rarely used and completely useless).

Also, Provoke wasn't use to grab hate at start of battle for paralyze/slow...etc. I have been playing since 2003 (before xbox) and it was used to keep hate from cures. Also, if you sub /Sam you can't use provoke. Forcing provoke as a requirement reduces flexibility and choices from players, encourages cookie cutters parties and increase alienation of jobs that aren't in the cookie cutter setup (bst, pup and smn was very marginal back then).

A lot of people seems to want to go back to the good-old-days. I remember those days! 6 hours waiting for a 1 Pld to seek so people could make a party. It was horrible. The harder the content becomes the more cookie cutter settings will be used. At the rate it's going. You will need a specific setup for most events. You'll need a Pld and a Whm for core and supports/DD. Without that setup, you'll have to wait or beg or just go fishing. Just like the horrible old days.

The direction will also make 3-man events difficult. There is a reason SE made certain events 3-man. It takes too much time looking for 5 other people. People wanted to log on, spend 15min of preparations and do what they want. If you make it so people have to get enough people for events (Voidwatch, Meebles, NNI) then you're looking at 15m-2hours of doing nothing but waiting for members to join. People with little time to play (less than 3hours a day) are forced into static PT.

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The enmity and defense/attack adjustments are good. By makeing the Support Job choices again relevant for different tasks I would say they are good then. If you want to hold hate Sub or Main a job that lets you keep hate. That is the whole point of the Subjob system. If you cant be arsed to use /war to keep hate on you, then by all means let your whm mule be beaten up to crap until it dies. The adjustments are fine and actually finally brought again some strategy and thinking into fighting.

By all mean I dont want to go back to the old days, and we arent there at all. You can still tank as a melee, you just need to adjust yoru playstyle and actually put some thought behind your support job choice and what abilitys you are gonna use in a fight. Its simple as that. The same goes for mages now too. -Enmity/+Enmity actually matters now.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

In Adoulin, there is no LCF. Outside Adoulin, there is no longer a LCF for a monster's att to player's def. And that is the only cap that changed outside adoulin. Players cannot get a 4 x cap, but 1-hand and H2H caps went up to 2.25 the same as 2H.

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That is wrong, further back in this thread I asked SE point blank about that and they replied in a very horrible way. LCF from the monster to you is indeed in effect, Ig-Alima still gets a crushing bonus to hit you. They made one small concession in that they reduced the LCF by 1. A level 100 monster will hit you like a level 99 monster used to, a level 101 monster will hit you like a level 100 did, so on and so forth. That is a stupidly small adjustment, so small as to be nearly unnoticeable.

Yes SE just screwed lots of people, the one set of people they didn't screw where the heavy DD's. A good DD will have a PDT/MDT set which will shield them from most of this update. They will have to really pay attention to the debuffs their getting, if you see a defense down one you have to immediately hit the "don't die" macro and wait for it to be removed.

Also guys, do not use Cure V if you can help it. The enmity reduction was applied to the enmity from the cure formula, Cure V does not derive it's enmity from that and instead has a set enmity value. Like the other set enmity value items (Provoke / Flash / Blind / Bind / Dispel) it's enmity was not changed. In relationship to the other cure's, Cure V is now the WHM version of provoke. Seriously it has more then double the CE of Cure IV while still having higher VE then Cure IV.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

So far hate issues is not the only problem we are dealing with. There is also big problem with defense and how much damage you are taking as melee DD. Overall these new updates are just plain old terrible, not implemented well and did not even go through a proper testing. Welcome to the new FFXI, say goodbye to fun accessible events and get ready for shouts and LFG for a perfect party with your perfect jobs and E/M/R shouts or you get nowhere in this game.

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I have to disagree with this statement. If there is a serious issue, I sure that SE will address it, just on their time, not ours.
You are in a way saying that the new FFXI is the old FFXI, I am sure that is not what SE is going for. I can understand issues with hate being at play, but perhaps the enmity issue and damage adjustment is telling us that SE wants us to utilize traditional tanking practices. Since they are introducing a new tanking class in RUN, I could imagine these changes were made to make the new job relevant and not totally useless. I can imagine that if the issue persist, they will tweak it, but I doubt they will scrap it all together.

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Originally Posted by Perdition

I have to disagree with this statement. If there is a serious issue, I sure that SE will address it, just on their time, not ours.
You are in a way saying that the new FFXI is the old FFXI, I am sure that is not what SE is going for. I can understand issues with hate being at play, but perhaps the enmity issue and damage adjustment is telling us that SE wants us to utilize traditional tanking practices. Since they are introducing a new tanking class in RUN, I could imagine these changes were made to make the new job relevant and not totally useless. I can imagine that if the issue persist, they will tweak it, but I doubt they will scrap it all together.

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The new FFXI is not the old FFXI pre-abyssea. Mages did not draw hate just by casting cures and enhancing magic. Summoner and Beast do not draw hate by doing absolutely nothing or using JA - especially Bst, Snarl should get the hate back to the pet. Right now the game is broken and somewhat unplayable for pet jobs and mages. When your PLD cannot get the hate back off the WHM whose job is to keep the PLD alive, IT IS BROKEN and it should be fixed.

Right now in Japan forums there are a few vague response. And they wont fix this for months!! Read: MONTHS. So yeah, you can "adjust" - maybe stop playing and just craft for months or solo (which somewhat negates the purpose of playing, since you can't solo as pet jobs, and melee was somewhat hit hard with the new defense craptacular adjustment).

There are many reports on how broken dynamis is for melee jobs now. THF, DNC and NIN suddenly become so squishy and evasion matters not. Lower lvl monsters dealing more damage than intended and raping tons of melee jobs. If they are trying to bring back "FORCED GROUPING" again, then you can either rejoice, or cancel your accounts (for those who are hit the hardest and going nerd rage).

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Originally Posted by Himrik

Basically, if I had to fight an entire PT, I'd kill the healer first, regardless off anything the other people do. :p
So, it kinda make sense.

The only way to really protect a healer should be to prevent the monster from reaching him, via collision. Enmity generating abilities are the substitute since it's much simpler to implement. :p

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THIS IS WHY. Tanks should've been given better means of tanking outside the enmity system instead of them screwing things up. Enimity never should've been the only output for tanks to protect allies. To create a job a defensive tank job that lacks ally protective abilities is comparable to creating a damage dealer that fights with toothpicks! Really, those toothpicks better have deathly effect or they aren't worth using.

WAR
Trait Intervene
Basically, when an enemy it's facing direct attacks other party members with defender up the warrior will auto intervene (using their attack accuracy). If this attack hits it causes a reduced damage attack tothe target or that interrupts the enemies attack completely. This trait only becomes active if defender is up so the warrior can't be a full damage dealer while in tank mode.

Cost for success the warrior takes HP damage instead of the target but at a reduced rate. If the intervene fails to interrupt (because the warrior missed) the enemies attack hits its target at full damage while the warrior also takes a fixed small percentage of damage from failing to cancel the enemies attack.

This would need to be balened..

PLD
Change Cover so it is a 1 min recast that last 1 min. The effect is based on the shield/parry skills. Effect: It automatically attempts to cover anyone near them at a fixed rate. It should be very effective at protecting others.

NIN
Job Ability: Shadow Embrace
Duration: 5 min (can be canceled)
Recast: 1 min
When casting utsumi shadows are sometimes automatically given to close ally's near them at the cost of extra tools. If the ninja cast a 4 shadow utsumi a nearby ally who doesn't have shadows may also get 4 shadows. This would be very effective at protecting others.

These unique creative ideas are what would've made tanks more useful. What was done in the last update to put tanks back into play was more of a way to punish the players so we where forced to use real full tanks. This isn't a good way to make the game better dispute the need to make tanks useful. The best way to make them better is by creating positive reinforcements for utilizing them as tanks.

This negative nerf shit is disgusting. It breaks the game in ways that make people hate playing. It also breaks the will of the players.

Why should they continue subscribing if the game isn't fun anymore? If people are pleased then they they'd be saying how awesome these changes are. They aren't so we know just how much it upset a few subscribers. If they quit playing and paying their subscriptions it's the developers fault for making them want to leave. Goods show of successful design. Recent poor financial announcements from SE have proven that people aren't all stupid with their money.

When I listen to you all, I see a bunch of babies who cared little that abyssea rendered tanks useless and never once did you come to tanks aid. I'm sure there are tanks right now reading this and feeling really hurt by everyone wanting thier job and caring little to even bother trying to ask them to help you out. Adapt and ask a tank to help you for once and quit your crying here in the forum. The producer already said they did not intend for melee and casters to have emmity maxed equal to tanks in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

This negative nerf shit is disgusting. It breaks the game in ways that make people hate playing. It also breaks the will of the players.

Why should they continue subscribing if the game isn't fun anymore? If people are pleased then they they'd be saying how awesome these changes are. They aren't so we know just how much it upset a few subscribers. If they quit playing and paying their subscriptions it's the developers fault for making them want to leave. Goods show of successful design. Recent poor financial announcements from SE have proven that people aren't all stupid with their money.

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Because they think we will just take all these changes and deal with it. And most of us will find a way or three overcome this, and figure it out a way to beat the system and pretty much clean it up. Then they come back with moare adjustment because you are not suppose to be able to beat the game so easily, I mean, you are not suppose to be smart and figure it out a way.

Embrava and PD strategy, smashed!! Pet burn? Squashed!! Solo??? Blocked!! What? you just want to duo with your friend??? They make sure the hate will be so fun to bounce around that playing is no longer fun. They are turning the clock back to 2003-2007 era, except this time, PLD is taking the spotlight again, everyone else is delegated at "playing defensively" and please don't do anything that involve JA or self buff or cure, or your tank will have a problem keeping hate. Well, as usual you can take it and do nothing or deal with it and do something about it.

Soon people will figure out a way to bilk tons of bayld out of smashing roots, you can bet your dollar the evaluation process will be adjusted to make sure that they bayld fountain stop there :)

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Originally Posted by Bahamut

When I listen to you all, I see a bunch of babies who cared little that abyssea rendered tanks useless and never once did you come to tanks aid. I'm sure there are tanks right now reading this and feeling really hurt by everyone wanting thier job and caring little to even bother trying to ask them to help you out. Adapt and ask a tank to help you for once and quit your crying here in the forum. The producer already said they did not intend for melee and casters to have emmity maxed equal to tanks in the first place.

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You'll be singing a different tune if the servers start shutting down because people subscribe to play this game their own style. Just because you think something is good doesn't mean it works for everyone. If it makes the casual players quit then we'll be left without anything to come back too. Are you seriously that optimistic thinking that everyone wants these drastic changes? Just deal with it? You must not care about this game much or lack understanding of what funds it.

Sure there needed to be some reason to bring tanks into the picture but it was done in an anti-productive way. If people don't want to play anymore you'll lose them. I'm not enthusiastic about the direction things are heading. I have some insight into where things are going. After all I've been a subscriber since 2004 and never have I felt so compelled to quit. I've seen all the nerfs and positive changes.

The nerfs up to this point weren't nearly as destructive. Back then they had the resources to handle things today they don't. I also so the things that brought in soloing etc. These things people call easy mode. You know I had the most fun when I was able to do things on my own. When I had to work with outer to get something done it was hard to find people willing to invest their time helping free. Sure I have friends but I don't like asking them constantly.

Now we have people being forced into another style that where already on the fence. Thanks these changes just made them say goodbye for now. There go's our helpful casual friends. Now what do we do when rest of the players who are hard core jerks who only care about themselves? Casual players be damned even though the market proves this is where the money is. There is no longer much enthusiasm to log on and play so it makes it easier to let the game die.