FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustments Manifesto: Paladin

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Originally Posted by Rorrick

Those mobs would likely kill Paladin as quickly, or quicker, than most DD jobs. Especially MNK, NIN and SAM. Paladin's defensive tools are arguably worse than many DD jobs' (Counterstance, Third Eye, Utsusemi), barring Ochain. If Ochain is the solution to Paladin's uselessness, I'd best be getting one for free, or the trials for it had best become much easier/less time consuming (the Colorless Souls are obnoxious, regardless of how you go about it). Requiring something the game regards as an ultimate weapon just to reach the baseline for usability is not a solution. Paladin's survivability should be buffed, with or without Ochain/Aegis.

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:disgusted: (at your laziness)

Considering Paladin's utility is and always will be prime on the hardest content in the game, everyone should have an Ultimate-class weapon or shield on it anyways. Paladin will never, ever be a casual content job. Sorry.

Edit: That said, Empyreans are stupid easy. Souls are annoying, and the shield/harp Abyssea trials are way worse than weapon Abyssea trials (I'd think because they bypass the crappy NM/VNM portions), but even those are being buffed next update. I dare say you can get over it if you actually want to play the job well.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

That said, Empyreans are stupid easy.

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Then go get me one. Rorrick would like one too by the sound of it, so you'd best get started on the "stupid easy" ahead of you.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Then go get me one. Rorrick would like one too by the sound of it, so you'd best get started on the "stupid easy" ahead of you.

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Sorry, I have no sympathy for lazy. If I gave half a crap about you, I could definitely go get you one. But, alas, I don't. So sad.

We're not talking about Relic Weapons here. Empyreans take a couple of days of grinding, even with a casual pace and frequent breaks. If you solo them or take them super slow, at most they take a couple weeks or maybe a month. If you're unwilling to put in that modicum of effort, then you would likely not function well in any moderately difficult endgame anyways.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If I gave half a crap about you, I could definitely go get you one.

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If you have to actually care, then it's not as easy as you claim. You're unwilling to back up your words.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Empyreans take a couple of days of grinding,

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But it's easy, so you should have no problem doing it for me.

Putting aside the question of the difficulty of getting an Ochain...

It's not fun!

"Hardest content in the game" to me reads as "least fun content in the game." I've never enjoyed endgame, even before the level cap bumps and Abyssea. Personally, it strikes me as nothing but grinding in pursuit of nothing more than some numbers in a database entry, not far removed from FarmVille. Heck, I'd personally be more interested in an Aegis than an Ochain if for no other reason than becuase there's cutscenes and a storyline behind it. It strikes me as a shining example of everything that is wrong with MMO's. I'd sooner go through ACP/AMK/ASA again.

I recognize that that's my opinion and other people do enjoy such things. You don't need my approval to go and enjoy yourself a nice session of Microsoft Excel Online. There are other things in the game that I do find enjoyable and you and I need never interact.

But I find the following totally unacceptable:

1. My preferred job is only useful in content that I hate. I'm not saying "I'm a thief but I don't want to pull!" or "I'm a beastmaster but I don't want to use pets!" but I am saying "I have absolutely no desire to fight those particular monsters, not once and certainly not dozens of times." Again, having certain numbers show up in your parser may make it all worthwhile to you, but that is not true of me.
2. My preferred job is only useful with gear that is only obtainable through content that I hate. I'd say the Maat fight is about my limit for broken, cheating, exacting content I am willing to put up with in order to get to do things I'd rather be doing (that is, beyond the crap I have to do to get the $12.95/mo to begin with). And I only had to win once. And I didn't have to /shout for help, deal with AoE or enstun spam, deal with ninja lotters or other lot drama, or beat him a hundred times over.

You can consider me lazy if you want, but that doesn't matter as we will never be doing the same content together as we have completely different tastes. However, the mechanics that you enjoy, the ones that say "PLD must be 1337!" affect everything in the game, both the content you want to do and the content I want to do. And so long as it's skewed entirely towards (what I consider to be) endgame BS, then the whole thing is utterly broken.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

utterly broken.

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Solution:
A) Get hired by SE(or buy SE).
B) Become lead dev of FFXI.
C) Make all mobs in the game hit like a truck and spam TP moves so that only pld can tank them.

Otherwise, quit, or play another job. I'm sorry that SE didn't design the game the way you would like.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

We're not talking about Relic Weapons here. Empyreans take a couple of days of grinding, even with a casual pace and frequent breaks. If you solo them or take them super slow, at most they take a couple weeks or maybe a month. If you're unwilling to put in that modicum of effort, then you would likely not function well in any moderately difficult endgame anyways.

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I agree with these statements pertaining to Empyrean Weapons, not Shield or Harp. I've been working a lot, and Souls are annoying to farm. I'm about 1/4 the way through souls, and it's not hard to do alone, it's just a pain in the ass to find a time where I'm not gonna be competing for a 15 min repop to progress my stone to a T3 when there's not a 20 people all going for the T2 in all zones.
I don't mind slow grinding, I just don't like it that I can't make slow steady progress because the monsters are simply not available in the couple hours of play time I get on work days.

Back on topic, PLDs aren't the super answer on hard mobs. Aegis PLDs are, but even they can be relegated to useful but not necessary if the mob is hate resetting or Endooming or casting Death.
PLD really needs some buffs to allow them to be functional in some method in alliances at least, if not in parties. Or give us the soloability of other useless jobs so I can at least pretend I'm not wasting my time on PLD when I could be killing faster and safer on another job.
I love PLD, first job. It just needs some TLC. Use the guys who are coming up with the ideas for SAM, BLM and maybe RNG if that new stance/JA actually is effective. Have them help the PLD guys fix the job.

Which zones are you trying? At the moment, there's a functionally retarded debate raging on BG about which zone T3 actually drops more souls, but it's honestly fairly likely that they all have similar drop rates; Ogopoggo is just a lot easier to kill. If competition is the main nuisance, I'd give Diabolos or Ifrit a try and see how those work out for you. Most of the people camping those T2s are only after seals anyways, so it's fairly easy to broker deals with them and just give seals away. I've even gotten a few free T3 pops from seal groups this way.

If people are really camping every zone for T3 pops already, then that really sucks and I can sympathize for you. There's not much that can be done about that. At least they're throwing us a pseudo-bone and increasing the Abyssite upgrade rates next update.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

If you have to actually care, then it's not as easy as you claim. You're unwilling to back up your words.

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If I said that getting a decent headset for Ventrillo would only cost $20, would you then tell me to give you $20 or stfu? I should certainly hope not. Just because I don't think something is remotely difficult, doesn't mean that it's free, nor does it mean that I'm willing to expend even a modicum of my time or energy on some jackass from the interwebs.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

But it's easy, so you should have no problem doing it for me.

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Would I have a "problem" doing it? Would it be difficult? No. Do I particularly want to, at all? No. Ochains are easy compared to nearly all previous Endgame content, and they're practically given away for the massive boost they offer, but they are not free, and they are not instant. If you want the best gear in the game to pop up in the armory crate next to Joachim, go suggest that to the Devs and leave the rest of us alone.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Putting aside the question of the difficulty of getting an Ochain...

It's not fun! snip

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If you don't want to do any legitimate endgame content, that's fine. But don't expect your Paladin to be useful on those oh so difficult rank missions and AF quests. Anything that you seem to be remotely interested in, a DD will always be able to handle better than a Paladin. Nothing will ever fix this. But hey, considering you don't seem to want to put forth any effort whatsoever into bettering yourself, and the content you want to play is so far behind everyone else, your Paladin may end up being useful when there aren't any half-competent DDs around to tank things.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If I said that getting a decent headset for Ventrillo

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Ventrillo isn't required to play the game. Like I said, there's more to life in FFXI than endgame.

If something is going to be required, then it should be easily attainable, to the point that you would have no real issue doing it for a complete stranger. Legwork should only be required for vanity gear and the like.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Just because I don't think something is remotely difficult, doesn't mean that it's free

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This goes back to the recent discussion on getting relics in Dynamis: getting an Ochain is easy only if your time and effort is worthless.

At best, all you can say is that the time and effort of getting an Ochain is worth less to you than the Ochain itself, i. e. on a relative scale. You only say that because both the bragging rights and the ability to do Voidwatch, etc. are worth something to you. But if I'm the one that ends up with the Ochain, so that those incentives are taken away from you, suddenly the time and effort to get one is worth something to you.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

they are not free, and they are not instant.

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And yet they're still mandatory. That's the problem.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If you want the best gear in the game to pop up in the armory crate next to Joachim

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I have no desire for the best gear in the game. I want to not need it.

So there's a contest between the Aegis and the Ochain over which is the best shield. What shield is in third place? Kaiser? Argos? Maybe Dagda's?

Does anybody even care about third place? Does it matter? Is it useful? Size 4 shields have always been little more than a fashion accessory (about as useful on PLD as they are on DRK), but now it seems even size 3 has fallen by the wayside as well. It's either relic, empyrean, or "level another job, n00b!"

And then there's the catch-22 of needing an Ochain for PLD to be useful in the process of getting an Ochain to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If you don't want to do any legitimate endgame content,

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As opposed to illegitimate? Yours is the only proper way to enjoy the game?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Anything that you seem to be remotely interested in, a DD will always be able to handle better than a Paladin.

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AND THAT'S THE FREAKING PROBLEM, GENIUS!

(Maybe I should bump up the font size on that one...)

You're oblivious. Paladin is only really useful on endgame content. This will always be true, simply due to the nature of Paladin. It is a job with a lot of defensive utility and not so hot offensive utility. Know what the problem for you is? Any good DD is going to have enough defensive power to tank any of the rank missions or story quests that you want to do, while putting out much more firepower than a Paladin.

I don't care if you don't want to do Endgame, but straight up you'll never find Paladin more useful than a DD for what you're interested in. Ever. Bitch and moan all you want about it, no one really cares because it's a matter that cannot fundamentally be solved without massive nerfs to every other job in the game.

Ochain should be required for high-tier Endgame. Don't want to do Endgame? You don't need an Ochain. You won't be useful, but you won't need an Ochain either.

As for "bragging rights", I don't give a crap. Does being willing to make an Ochain for myself or my friends and not for some random obnoxious stranger on the internet make me selfish? Uh, sure. Why the heck not. Does being willing to buy my girlfriend dinner but not some jackass in the restaurant who demands that I pay for his meal make me selfish? Why the heck not. I owe you absolutely nothing. Go direct your jealous rage elsewhere and come back when you have something meaningful to contribute to the conversation.

Paladin just is not receiving the same level of thoughtful care that other jobs are. In the last 2 level increases all PLD received was Sepulchre, which is highly situational and 2 spells, Enlight and Protect V. Face the facts, we are getting overlooked and we need to be heard! We demand a new spell if a job like DRK, the tails to our heads of the coin is receiving FOUR new spells? Right? No job traits, no nothing, except talk of balance. Balance is when you increase the damage output of all jobs by a factor of let's say 2, you thusly increase the enmity holding power of the ONLY job specifically DESIGNED from DAY ONE to tank, by the same factor.

Give us some spells! Give us some traits! DO NOT sit on your hands and mumble once again this same retoric of balance instead of taking action. Bolster our prowess as defenders of the realm, give us the tools to be just as impressive tanks as you have given warrior to be fighters or black mages to be spellcasters. At least make an effort please Camate, we deserve to see the end of this tale in armored glory just as the other jobs will.

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Originally Posted by AldielQuetz

Paladin just is not receiving the same level of thoughtful care that other jobs are. In the last 2 level increases all PLD received was Sepulchre, which is highly situational and 2 spells, Enlight and Protect V. Face the facts, we are getting overlooked and we need to be heard! We demand a new spell if a job like DRK, the tails to our heads of the coin is receiving FOUR new spells? Right? No job traits, no nothing, except talk of balance. Balance is when you increase the damage output of all jobs by a factor of let's say 2, you thusly increase the enmity holding power of the ONLY job specifically DESIGNED from DAY ONE to tank, by the same factor.

Give us some spells! Give us some traits! DO NOT sit on your hands and mumble once again this same retoric of balance instead of taking action. Bolster our prowess as defenders of the realm, give us the tools to be just as impressive tanks as you have given warrior to be fighters or black mages to be spellcasters. At least make an effort please Camate, we deserve to see the end of this tale in armored glory just as the other jobs will.

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Paladin is a great tank, what are you talking about?

Divine Emblem got a massive boost back in July. It might only be once every ten minutes, but being able to do 7k damage in Abyssea without having any super special gear is pretty amazing.

Let's compare, to demonstrate what it is that I am talking about Debbie. Warrior has received a retroactive trait with multiple Tiers in Fencer, it received shield mastery and shield defense bonus and defense bonus II, it received critical attack bonus 1 and 2 and in the same time, all PLD got was shield defense bonus and critical defense bonus.

What I am asking for is that the same level of refinement be applied to all jobs, that not only is game balance preserved through opinion but also through equally perfecting and improving all jobs through the implementation of more retroactively applied job traits such as Fencer.

And yea, doing 3-4k every 10 minutes is fine, divine emblem is fine, but being skipped over for creative and completely new spells is unacceptable. And all I am asking for is the same attention to detail be applied to PLD as is WAR.

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Originally Posted by AldielQuetz

Let's compare, to demonstrate what it is that I am talking about Debbie. Warrior has received a retroactive trait with multiple Tiers in Fencer, it received shield mastery and shield defense bonus and defense bonus II, it received critical attack bonus 1 and 2 and in the same time, all PLD got was shield defense bonus and critical defense bonus.

What I am asking for is that the same level of refinement be applied to all jobs, that not only is game balance preserved through opinion but also through equally perfecting and improving all jobs through the implementation of more retroactively applied job traits such as Fencer.

And yea, doing 3-4k every 10 minutes is fine, divine emblem is fine, but being skipped over for creative and completely new spells is unacceptable. And all I am asking for is the same attention to detail be applied to PLD as is WAR.

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Perhaps SE doesn't think PLD needs anything more than shield defense bonus and critical defense bonus? I would say that's probably true if that's all they gave the job.

What needs to happen is, if every request we make is answered with "we cannot do this, it will effect game balance" then we must make requests which encourage greater game balance. This is our only logical recourse Debbie, plain and simple. If 9 out of 10 jobs with spells are getting a new and creative, interesting and cool new spell, I contend that job number 10, no matter what job that is, deserves the same effort on the part of the developers to be included. If the job were BLM I would be saying the same thing, why doesn't Job-X get a new spell too?

I feel sure pld will get some fun toys soon!

Ergo, then if all jobs are getting a new job ability but 1, then that job deserves one too. In this case, they didn't leave anyone out as far as job abilities if I recall correctly. Please remind me if I missed one, because that would only help my cause. But the simple fact that in the case of job abilities they left no job behind, then why not in spells?

The same goes for job traits, WAR has a single handed weapon trait retroactively added and rarely if ever uses a singular 1handed weapon. Why? To encourage PLDs to sub WAR. Then why not just give the only job in the game that consistently uses only 1 single handed weapon this trait? The answer was that SE cannot give PLD any offensive traits yet WAR received Shield Mastery and Shield Defense Bonus, there must be a way to resolve this dichotomy, this duplicitous mind which can give defensive traits to offensive jobs but cannot give offensive traits to defensive ones.

There must be balance correct? Where is it?

Let's hope so Debbie! We need help, we need the same level of commitment by SE to our job as I see others receiving.

PLD is quite the amazing tank, Problem is most people complaining its not are (Forgive me) Probably either gimp, or haven't seen this game outside of Abyssea. Not sure why GG is being chastised here when everything he said so far has been 100% Accurate.

To the Taru-Faced fella whining about Empyreans. GG Is right, Comparatively to Relics, Mythics, and some things in this game... Empyrean weapons are quite easy. They, like most things worth your effort, take time and patience. You using "THEN WHY WONT YOU GET ME ONE LOL" as an argument is stupid and childish, and just goes to show you have absolutely no legitimate complaint because you result to arguments like that.

He explained it well, I'll explain it better, Empyreans are Easy to get, But that doesn't mean he has to go around giving people them. Its his time, and you aren't worth it. In the same light, Some high-CEO might tell you making money is easy, Is he going to hand you a few mil? No, Earn it yourself you lazy bumb < is likely the response you'll get.

He's also right in saying Enmity has never been the Problem with PLD, when people find out a mob can be tanked by a DD, they'll take the DD. The solution is not nerfing DD, its making enemies strong enough that PLD is actually worth bringing. Voidwatch is doing that, and it'll continue doing it I'm sure.

I'm not saying PLD doesn't need a buff, not saying that at all, Simply saying it has a niche, and you guys should realize that. PLD is wonderful on hard enemies, theres just so few of them right now they aren't shining as they once were. Give it time and PLD will naturally come back to the top once harder content is introduced.

PLD is a good job, and I'm sure it will get better in the future, like most jobs, it has a use now, but not a lot of people do it (Voidwatch) so you may not notice. But again I say, PLD will get its due in time.

You're over looking the main problem and don't understand what he is trying to say. Yes PLD is a great tank, but this is the question. Do they get invited often? And, I mean often. Let it sink in for a while.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

You're over looking the main problem and don't understand what he is trying to say. Yes PLD is a great tank, but this is the question, do they get invited often? And, I mean often. Let it sink in for a while.

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I'm not overlooking anything. I know very well why PLD doesn't get invited. I spelled it on in that post too, that is. PLD is only good on tough content, and there is very little tough content right now.

Once tougher content is released, in the very near future, They will get invited more often, You're all in a "End of the world" panic because PLD isn't useful in Abyssea, and the majority of you keep suggesting bonuses to enmity which will never ever help PLD.

Who cares if a PLD can absorb everyones enmity when, in Abyssea, where PLD has the biggest problem, No one needs that kind of control? Outside Abyssea on Voidwatch PLD doesn't need that sort of buff either, Its Enmity control is fine.

If anything one of my favorite ideas is giving PLD some sort of Resistance to Hate Resets.

If you're going to panic over this make the suggestions actually go toward helping PLD, and that would be giving them more offensive skills, which SE said "no" too, the only other option is to release much harder content.

PLD will never be wanted for easier content where DD's can tank unless PLD can suddenly put out the damage of those DD, and since SE Said "no" to that, Again i say, the only solution is content difficult enough to require a PLD.

Edit: Anyway I'm going to make my exit from this convo, Was only trying to show GG I agree with him and he's not alone. He knows this now, My work is done. I hope you guys get the buff you're wanting, Judging by the requests in this thread, it'll be as useful as Temper!

Goodluck :)!

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Originally Posted by Andrien

You're over looking the main problem and don't understand what he is trying to say. Yes PLD is a great tank, but this is the question. Do they get invited often? And, I mean often. Let it sink in for a while.

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Join a linkshell.

@ Debbie. I swear all you do is troll Debbie. I'm an Almace PLD, BLU and working my way through Ochain. So, please stop your arrogance. FYI, I go BLU for events because it is much more useful. Nobody brings PLD or even asks.

@ Karbuncle. Never said I'm in panic. I said you're over looking the problem. To be more clear its the issue with the taru and Ochain argument. It shouldn't be the holy grail for invites imo. I consider it a tool to make things easy.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

PLD is quite the amazing tank, Problem is most people complaining its not are (Forgive me) Probably either gimp, or haven't seen this game outside of Abyssea.

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The problem is that tanking in and of itself is useless. Attack is far more valuable a trait than defense, in just about every situation.

What would you rather have, an alliance of 18 PLDs, or 18 MNKs?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Not sure why GG is being chastised here when everything he said so far has been 100% Accurate.

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Because he's trolling and looking for an argument, for the most part. He comes into a thread about the problems with PLD to tell them there are no problems, and then wonder out loud why people disagree with him. But that's all in the past now for me.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Comparatively to Relics, Mythics, and some things in this game... Empyrean weapons are quite easy.

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Note you used the word "comparatively." Relative =/= absolute.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

like most things worth your effort,

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"Worth" is another relative concept. It is worth it to you.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

You using "THEN WHY WONT YOU GET ME ONE LOL" as an argument is stupid and childish

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It was an attempt to demonstrate that the effort to get one is worth more than he is giving credit. He's not even on my server, and I have friends/minions who would probably get me one if I asked.

If you want to talk literally, I wouldn't want to go through the process even with help and/or someone "doing it for" me. I view the entire process as not being fun, period.

Getting to Jeuno at level 20 is easy. I recognize it is easy. I will also volunteer my own time and effort to escort a level 20 job to Jeuno, even though I get absolutely nothing out of the trip. I'd even do it level sync'd to 20. Something that is truly "easy" and "near effortless" (again, on absolute terms, not "relative to an Aegis") is something you'd have no qualms at doing again for someone else. If it costs so little time and effort, what's stopping you from spending that time and effort on a stranger's behalf?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Its his time, and you aren't worth it.

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If I have to be "worth it," then the time and effort must be "worth" something, mustn't it?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

making enemies strong enough that PLD is actually worth bringing. Voidwatch is doing that, and it'll continue doing it I'm sure.

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And it doesn't matter that I have less desire to do Voidwatch than I do to make an Ochain?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Simply saying it has a niche, and you guys should realize that.

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We do. The niche is too small. Especially when most other jobs don't have to limit themselves to "niche" content.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

PLD is wonderful on hard enemies, theres just so few of them right now they aren't shining as they once were. Give it time and PLD will naturally come back to the top once harder content is introduced.

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It never has been "on the top." Before Abyssea, a PLD either had an Aegis, or came as a different job. PLD has been practically useless in any and all group content past level 70. No HNMs, no sky gods, no Salvage, no Nyzul, not even a merit points party.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

But again I say, PLD will get its due in time.

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Yeah, we'll get a buff right around the time Utsusemi: San comes out.

Why should a job require a relic/mythic/empyrean to be useful? WAR is useful without one, so is BLM, the argument that every PLD should go get a specific piece of gear to be useful would be like making leveling woodworking to 100 so you can adequately make your own shihei a requirement of being a NIN of any worth at 90. It isn't necessary to have a r/m/e to create balance either. PLD can be given a few offensive traits just like MNK has counter, SAM has 3rd eye, and WAR has Defense Bonus I and II, Shield Mastery, and Shield Defense Bonus. It will not break the game to give PLD the extra boost it needs to be worthwhile in Abyssea.

Tl;dr. SE stop being afraid to actually be fair and balance the game. Requiring a relic/etc/etc is not fair when other jobs keep getting refined and improved without the need for one.

Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

The problem is that tanking in and of itself is useless. Attack is far more valuable a trait than defense, in just about every situation.

What would you rather have, an alliance of 18 PLDs, or 18 MNKs

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I don't know what you're going on about. Tanking is needed when a real challenge presents itself. I suppose you're so used to the game on easy mode that you forgot that things can be hard. I personally would rather have a situation where PLD is needed. Even if that situation meant slower kills than things on easy mode, I would prefer it because easy mode is boring.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Because he's trolling and looking for an argument, for the most part. He comes into a thread about the problems with PLD to tell them there are no problems, and then wonder out loud why people disagree with him. But that's all in the past now for me.

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I'm not sure why you consider correcting people who don't understand something to be trolling. Paladin's main problem is that it's only useful for tanking difficult monsters. One solution that many people, including GreatGuardian, suggest is the implementation of more hard monsters. I really like this solution, since those monsters are fun for the whole family.

Giving Paladin a lot of stuff to mess with enmity won't make it any better for situations with not-so-hard monsters, yet it seems like every other thing mentioned in relation to Paladin is "Make the monster hate me more! Make it hate me as though I left that monster for it's best friend and never returned it's vinyl LP of Emergency & I! Make it hate me so much that it doesn't drop anything just to spite me!"

Defensive abilities or traits would be nice for the situations in which Paladin is currently useful. Offensive and healing/support abilities or traits would be nice for situations in which Paladin is not currently useful. Enmity-related abilities and traits wouldn't be good for much of anything.

SE has ruled out a significant increase in offensive ability, so I'm not sure what options are left for improving Paladin in situations outside of it's niche, but more stuff to gain more enmity won't change anything for anybody. Or rather, it won't change anything for anybody who puts effort into the job and it won't change anything for the better.

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

(...) when a real challenge presents itself (...) I personally would rather (...) I would prefer (...)

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"PLD is only good in X content. I like X content. What's your problem? You should totally like the same things I like!"

I'm tired of this thread.

Because all jobs should be useful in all content. PUP BST COR and DNC would like to have a word with you about that.

It would be really good to keep the focus on PLD instead of derailing the thread with idle commentary every other post guys.... I don't go into the WHM and RDM forum to argue with your desires.

PLD needs a spell this update and deserves a few tweaks, that's it. It's been neglected, the end.

Definitely give PLD +enmity bonus traits, make it tiered starting at 35/45 and working their way up.
Give Flash II, modify Cover to always have an effect provide the target is within 10 feet of you.
Give paladin provoke or another JA with similar effect, instant use and low recast timer.

Flash II >>>> Brilliant, more of this, with a side of this, for the win! Drain and Drain II, Flash and Flash II

Vote YES! For proposition 1337: Make a Paladin Smile!

Hmmm Flash II /o/ with a one minute recast time ? :D
I'd love to see some reduction on Divine Emblem, i think someone had that idea at some point anyway.

Honest question: What do you guys hope to accomplish by having significantly more enmity as Paladin?

I'm not trying to mess with anybody. I'm truly curious.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Considering Paladin's utility is and always will be prime on the hardest content in the game, everyone should have an Ultimate-class weapon or shield on it anyways. Paladin will never, ever be a casual content job. Sorry.

Edit: That said, Empyreans are stupid easy. Souls are annoying, and the shield/harp Abyssea trials are way worse than weapon Abyssea trials (I'd think because they bypass the crappy NM/VNM portions), but even those are being buffed next update. I dare say you can get over it if you actually want to play the job well.

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I take mild offense to insinuating that laziness is the reason I lack Ochain. Expecting me to devote a week of my life to something that ultimately doesn't really fix the problem with Paladin is pretty bold, but to imply that my lack of one is due to laziness or ineptitude is ridiculous.

Getting online for an hour every other day to fulfil my linkshell commitments is pretty easy. Setting aside three or four hours a night every day for a month is an unreasonable expectation of any player. If you can devote than kind of time on a consistent basis, great, but don't assume that everyone else can, or should be required to in order to even approach usability. By myself, I can carry around two T3s with myself (on MNK, how ironic) and my WHM mule. T2 repops take anywhere from 10-15 minutes, on top of the three or four it takes me to kill the thing. Assuming I get every claim every ten minutes and kill in three (a pretty unfair hypothetical, because there's no way I'm getting every claim the moment the window it open, and for some reason people on Sylph don't like letting you pop just to get a conversion), and I get a conversion every time, that's eleven hours for 50 T3s (and in my experience, the double drop rate is less than that) under perfect conditions, and ignoring the time it actually takes to kill the T3 itself (I tend to stick to Brulo, as I've found he's not as heavily camped). For all intents and purposes, it'll take me about a month on my own just to finish the souls. Also consider I don't have WAR levelled (are you going to tell me to level, skill-up, and gear it now?), so I'd be farming plates on Paladin, which would probably take me another month's worth of weekends. I've got no experience with Azdaja, so you can fill that blank in on your own.

While I do all that, I'm not progressing with anything else in the game. And what's the reward? An item that doesn't solve Paladin's problem. Ochain is handy the first few times, until you figure out the gimmicks. Then you can adapt your strategy for damage dealing tanks to kill the enemy faster with minimal increase in risk. Damage dealers have potent damage mitigation at their disposal in addition to their often overwhelming offense. Eventually, this cycle of familiarity results in an environment where Paladin serves no purpose. This is the issue. Paladin contributes nothing in that environment, and this needs to be addressed.

If the above is what you consider an acceptable situation for a casual player to find themselves in (I think even expecting them to have WHM mules to be hilariously presumptuous), then fine, you and I are clearly using different lexicons. But don't have the audacity to assume that something is unattainable to me because I'm lazy.


Edit: Just to reiterate, enmity is a secondary issue. Addressing it and nothing else does not fix Paladin.

I'll say it again: Requiring a Paladin to have both an Almace and Ochain only proves there is something seriously wrong with the job. S-E 's attempt at pandering to endgamers with these absurd Empyrean trials has done nothing to attract casual gamers who, more than likely, want nothing to do with endgame linkshells and the odious politics that accompany them. Laziness or whatever other talking points people spout onto these threads have nothing to do with the real problem, a job that is not truly balanced.

Game balance seems only to be a problem with certain jobs that want to play and enjoy the game as much as those who mindlessly gravitate toward the bandwagon jobs (these people know who they are). What, in fact, is so wrong about giving Paladins a bit more punch offensively? What would be so overpowered about letting paladins do their job without having to almost literally sell their souls (i.e. join an endgame LS) for two Empyrean items that won't even guarantee their usefulness?

S-E knows the answer to this situation. Let's see if they stop listening to the wrong people long enough to put it into action.

How would you balance pld so that it would be useful vs a monster that you can tank with sam or monk?

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

How would you balance pld so that it would be useful vs a monster that you can tank with sam or monk?

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You can't without increasing the offensive capabilities of PLD which SE said they weren't going to do. People are deluded to think that some magical enmity buff will solve all their problems, but they would be in the same situation of not being needed.