Add New Jobs to Relic Weapons - Past Due for an Explanation

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

And they had to get out the pitchforks and burning torches just to get that much. In it's original form Bully increased treasure hunter proc rate.

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Bully, in its original form, only caused mobs to get intimidated, and it didn't prove to be useful. Treasure hunter was eventually added, but even then it wasn't enough.

If anyone was wondering still, Assassin's Charge definitely came after Assassin:
Assassin - http://www.playonline.com/updateus/041209we8yu0.html
Assassin's Charge - http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update...N1/detail.html

Also, the description given to Assassin seems to be incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Also, the description given to Assassin seems to be incorrect.

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Made me chuckle. Thanks for clearing that up though.

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It's not about which is better it's about SE buffing DNC to ridiculous levels by giving them things THFs have been asking for for years while letting THF languish, then taking things from THF and giving them to dancer in a better form on top of that.

And that is why career THF's rage at the idea of giving Mandau, the highest symbol of a THF's dedication to the job, to DNC.

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.

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Thanks for speaking for me. Thf main. Doesnt care if dnc is on mandau.

Mandau is not some flawless symbol of thfdom. Players turned a digital item into a symbol. Mandau is not a symbol of thf. It is a symbol of the perfection of dagger. Just like gugnir is not the perfection of drg, but the perfection of polearm.

Relic weapons are designed as the pinnacle of the WEAPON CLASS. There is 1 for each weapon class, and it is (in lore anyway) the strongest weapon of that classification. Creating new 'relic weapons' does not compute. Creating a NEW relic dagger spits in the face of Mandau more than adding a new job to it because a parallel "best dagger" destroys the entire concept (lore wise) of the BEST DAGGER. There can be only one.

Jobs that focus on a specific weapon class should be able to access the pinnical of that class. If a damn BARD can use the best dagger in the game, any argument taht thf is the superior dagger class to dnc is moot because both are far superior to rdm and brd in dagger proficiency. If a rdm can manage to wield excal, im sure a blu is up to the task. If a Sam can wield the bow, im certain a cor can handle the gun properly. This is not about job distinction. Its bout job inclusion.

'Expanding' relics to have parallel copies of a weapon undermines the concept of a 'best in class' weapon in its entirety. So long as bard and Rdm can wield a mandau and sam can wield yoichi and rdm can wield excal, then dnc/blu/cor have more than competent and skilled enough to wield this calibur of weapons.

This is not job vs job. This is allowing jobs to access the static 'best in class' style weapons that relics are for the wepaons in which said jobs are exceptionally proficient in. New relics are not the solution because then they wouldnt be relics. There is 1 for every weapon class. Every weapon class already exists, therefore the weapons require retrofit instead of forging entirely new ones. It makes more sense lore wise, AND it is the occams solution. Its both the most logical (in vanadiel) and the most practical (on earth) to implement.
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Also, i fail to see how Dnc bein on mandau is the same as horror buffs watching some teen girl book in movie form. Just because a movie has Vamps and Werewolves doesnt make it horror and thus horror fans shouldnt feel threatened by it. Wait a second....maybe it does make sense.

Just because a movie Job Class has Vamps and Werewolves uses daggers and equips mandau doesnt make it horror Thf and thus horror fans Thfs shouldnt feel threatened by it.

Werewolves and Vampires does not a horror film make. Using daggers and equiping mandau does not a thf make. Dnc is still just some fluffy teen girl that likes twilight and Thf is the hardcore horror genre. So they both have share vamps and were's. They arent anything near the same thing. Equiping a mandau makes dnc no more a thf than team edward being a vampire fan club makes twilight a horror film.
Nevermind i take it back, that is a perfect analogy. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Thanks for speaking for me. Thf main. Doesnt care if dnc is on mandau.

Mandau is not some flawless symbol of thfdom. Players turned a digital item into a symbol. Mandau is not a symbol of thf. It is a symbol of the perfection of dagger. Just like gugnir is not the perfection of drg, but the perfection of polearm.

Relic weapons are designed as the pinnacle of the WEAPON CLASS. There is 1 for each weapon class, and it is (in lore anyway) the strongest weapon of that classification. Creating new 'relic weapons' does not compute. Creating a NEW relic dagger spits in the face of Mandau more than adding a new job to it because a parallel "best dagger" destroys the entire concept (lore wise) of the BEST DAGGER. There can be only one.

Jobs that focus on a specific weapon class should be able to access the pinnical of that class. If a damn BARD can use the best dagger in the game, any argument taht thf is the superior dagger class to dnc is moot because both are far superior to rdm and brd in dagger proficiency. If a rdm can manage to wield excal, im sure a blu is up to the task. If a Sam can wield the bow, im certain a cor can handle the gun properly. This is not about job distinction. Its bout job inclusion.

'Expanding' relics to have parallel copies of a weapon undermines the concept of a 'best in class' weapon in its entirety. So long as bard and Rdm can wield a mandau and sam can wield yoichi and rdm can wield excal, then dnc/blu/cor have more than competent and skilled enough to wield this calibur of weapons.

This is not job vs job. This is allowing jobs to access the static 'best in class' style weapons that relics are for the wepaons in which said jobs are exceptionally proficient in. New relics are not the solution because then they wouldnt be relics. There is 1 for every weapon class. Every weapon class already exists, therefore the weapons require retrofit instead of forging entirely new ones. It makes more sense lore wise, AND it is the occams solution. Its both the most logical (in vanadiel) and the most practical (on earth) to implement.
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Also, i fail to see how Dnc bein on mandau is the same as horror buffs watching some teen girl book in movie form. Just because a movie has Vamps and Werewolves doesnt make it horror and thus horror fans shouldnt feel threatened by it. Wait a second....maybe it does make sense.

Just because a movie Job Class has Vamps and Werewolves uses daggers and equips mandau doesnt make it horror Thf and thus horror fans Thfs shouldnt feel threatened by it.

Werewolves and Vampires does not a horror film make. Using daggers and equiping mandau does not a thf make. Dnc is still just some fluffy teen girl that likes twilight and Thf is the hardcore horror genre. So they both have share vamps and were's. They arent anything near the same thing. Equiping a mandau makes dnc no more a thf than team edward being a vampire fan club makes twilight a horror film.
Nevermind i take it back, that is a perfect analogy. Thanks.

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http://vibeus.wippiespace.com/pictures/gifs/applaud.gif

If I could 'like' your post 100 more times, I would. I agree with your post 100%.

See it shouldn't bother THF that DNC gets the weapon. DNC uses dagger primarily, so they have the right to use Mandau as much as THF does.

Also, making a different "weapon types" just so new jobs can equip it, completely goes against the lore. Relics should be the best of the best, and that is exactly the reason why all 20 of the jobs should be able to use the relic weapons.

Plus, it'd be awesome to use Mandau offhand on Dancer. When I plug it all in to Motenten's spreadsheet, Mandau comes out about 5-6% ahead (total DPS) of a STR Kila +2 outside Abyssea fighting Fodder mobs as an offhand due to its Attack.

Are people seriously forgetting that RDM is on the dagger as well as BRD? Why is this such a big deal when the dagger can already be used by multiple jobs...? Granted DNC uses dagger more so than BRD or RDM, mandau is still an excellent relic for those jobs, and definitely the best weapon if it's available.

Calm down?

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Originally Posted by Helel

Are people seriously forgetting that RDM is on the dagger as well as BRD? Why is this such a big deal when the dagger can already be used by multiple jobs...? Granted DNC uses dagger more so than BRD or RDM, mandau is still an excellent relic for those jobs, and definitely the best weapon if it's available.

Calm down?

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They're all up in a roar about it because unlike RDM or BRD, DNC would use the dagger well. They're crying because outside of TH DNC has taken a lot of the THF shine away with similar abilities, though really THF is only used for TH by most groups so I don't see why they're upset over the idea of DNC being on Mandau its not like either job is wanted outside of dagger procs or TH in THF's case.

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Creating new 'relic weapons' does not compute.

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It computes perfectly, it just very slightly tampers with some existing lore, which can be explained away with more lore. This isn't a good argument against such an idea.

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Why is this such a big deal when the dagger can already be used by multiple jobs...?

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It's not useable by every job that can equip a dagger, even before new jobs came out. It was useable by specifically designated jobs out of those that can wield a dagger. PLD is not on the relic club, even though PLD technically gets a higher degree of mastery with that weapon type than WHM. They consciously decided on a select few jobs (or one in some cases) to get each weapon- it was an arbitrary decision.

Dunno why I posted this since my head is just going to get torn off by some valiant defender, but whatever. Not going to say anything else for a while at least.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Not going to say anything else for a while at least.

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And then, all of a sudden, 25 pages of waaaaaaaaaa was totally worth it.

War is on Ragnarok (Prd too), but not Guttler, even though it has higher Axe skill. Samurai is on Yoichi, but has no native Archery Weaponskills.

Whatever they used to decide what job gets what relic didn't make sense the first time.

Actually, Prd having A club never made sense either.

And if the update goes live it looks like Mandau just became lolmeleerdm's best offhand.

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It computes perfectly, it just very slightly tampers with some existing lore, which can be explained away with more lore. This isn't a good argument against such an idea.

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No, it does not computes perfectly. Mandau is supposed to be as the "legendary dagger weapon", period, so therefore, it is supposed to be as the best dagger of all. Same with all the other relic. There can only be one relic weapon for each weapon type, Having another relic dagger is just stupid and goes against the lore.

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It's not useable by every job that can equip a dagger, even before new jobs came out. It was useable by specifically designated jobs out of those that can wield a dagger. PLD is not on the relic club, even though PLD technically gets a higher degree of mastery with that weapon type than WHM. They consciously decided on a select few jobs (or one in some cases) to get each weapon- it was an arbitrary decision.

Dunno why I posted this since my head is just going to get torn off by some valiant defender, but whatever. Not going to say anything else for a while at least.

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Yes, Paladin have a higher degree of weapon mastery with club than White mages, but do they use the club primarily? No, they use sword primarily so therefore, it makes sense for them to have Excalibur. Monk and Warrior have higher skill for Staff than Black mage and summoner. Do they get the relic staff? No. Monk uses H2H Primarily and WAR, Great Axe, primarily.

Dancer uses Dagger primarily, therefore, they should get access to Mandau. Blue Mage uses Sword primarily, therefore, they should use Excalibur. Corsair uses guns primarily, therefore, they should get Annihilator. Puppetmaster uses H2H primarily, so therefore, they get Spharai.

This isn't about Giving jobs access to weapon just because they can use the weapon type. This is about giving access to relics because they don't HAVE the access, especially when they can use it primarily.

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Originally Posted by Suirieko

Yes, Paladin have a higher degree of weapon mastery with club than White mages, but do they use the club primarily? No, they use sword primarily so therefore, it makes sense for them to have Excalibur.

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Shouldn't RDM only have Excalibur in that case?

People need to get off this "PLD has A club" business. They can't use hammers. Period. Mjollnir is a hammer. Problem: Solved.

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Originally Posted by Helel

Calm down?

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Originally Posted by Zagen

They're all up in a roar about it because unlike RDM or BRD, DNC would use the dagger well.

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I only see people like you guys crying about people crying about it. I don't see the people that are actually crying about it. Stop making stuff up.

As I said before, this is largely a matter of opinion. The facts can be summed up like this:
- There is only one weapon for each class (supposedly the best of its class)
- Every job is on at least one relic weapon (pre ToAU)
- Being able to wield a weapon depends on the weapon type as well

The last point simply means what Greatguardian already said. While PLD have high Club skill, they can't use hammers, which is what Mjollnir is. Same with WAR, who can't use tabar-type axes and lance-type polearms, which is what Guttler and Gungnir are. Dark Knights can't use most bhuj-type great axes (they can use lower level ones, but not higher level ones... not quite sure why, but you can still see the separation), which is what Bravura is, and so on.

Mandau, for example, is a knife. With some notable exceptions (Chicken Knife, Thief's Knife, Corsair's Knife, etc.), DNC has always been able to wield knives (only dagger-types DNC can't use are baselard and kris daggers), which is why I believe it would make sense to add them to that.

All of those three facts would hint at allowing new jobs to join existing weapons. However, there is no rule that can't be (or hasn't been) broken (especially by SE). They go against their own pattern quite frequently and use some additional lore to make up for it. They could just as well do it for this, whether it makes sense or not. In the end, it is what it is, personal preference. I think having new relics for new jobs would suck, especially since my OCD doesn't want the first fact I mentioned to be broken (I hate breaking patterns). That's all anyone can argue in here.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I only see people like you guys crying about people crying about it. I don't see the people that are actually crying about it. Stop making stuff up.

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Eh? These 2 posts pretty much started the whole THF vs. DNC thing in the first few pages and probably further into the thread there's more I don't remember but I didn't bother going past page 6.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

SE has given DNC too much of THF's stuff already. No more please.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

THF is supposed to be the master of daggers but SE has basically made DNC into "THF only better!" I don't want to see one of the few things remaining that is THF's given over to DNC.

And no, RDM and BRD don't count.

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Granted it seemed as though Atomic_Skull Vs. everyone else for the most part. Might have had more people on his/her side but again didn't care to go through anymore pages to prove it wasn't "made up"

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Shouldn't RDM only have Excalibur in that case?

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Um. No? I was responding to Alhanelem's post here:

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PLD is not on the relic club, even though PLD technically gets a higher degree of mastery with that weapon type than WHM.

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And I was basically arguing how that is a silly arguement because it doesn't matter what the skill level is for certain weapon type. Monk have higher skill in Staff than other mages, but do you see them having access to Claustrum? No. Paladin is a primary sword user, so it makes sense for them to have Excalibur. Red Mage uses swords primarily so they have access to Excalibur. Blue Mage uses sword primarily, so therefore, they SHOULD have access to Excalibur. That is the argument here.

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People need to get off this "PLD has A club" business. They can't use hammers. Period. Mjollnir is a hammer. Problem: Solved.

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I really don't think anyone would care about Paladin and club. It was a silly argument that Alhanelem made to try to argue why the five new jobs shouldn't have access to the relic weapons. As I said again, this isn't about giving relic to jobs just because they can use the weapon. This is about giving relic weapons to jobs (that don't even have access to relic weapons) that PRIMARILY uses the said weapon type. There's a different. IE: No one is saying Ninja should be able to use Mandau just because they can use dagger.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

People need to get off this "PLD has A club" business. They can't use hammers. Period. Mjollnir is a hammer. Problem: Solved.

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They can't?

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Brass_Jadagna_%2B1

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Brise-os_%2B1

The shape and the damage rating compared to other clubs at their level clearly place these in the "hammer" class. The argument that DNC should get Mandau because they can already use a few dagger type weapons can also be used to argue that PLD should have Mjollnir for the same reason.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

They can't?

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Brass_Jadagna_%2B1

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Brise-os_%2B1

The shape and the damage rating compared to other clubs at their level clearly place these in the "hammer" class. The argument that DNC should get Mandau because they can already use a few dagger type weapons can also be used to argue that PLD should have Mjollnir for the same reason.

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You seem to have forgotten the "Mace" class of clubs. Just saying, tbh I don't care if PLD was added to Club Relic or not.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

You seem to have forgotten the "Mace" class of clubs.

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Except that those are clearly hammers and not maces.

The Jadagna is a medieval club made of ironwood sometimes fitted with a stone or metal spike at the head.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

The Jadagna is a medieval club made of ironwood sometimes fitted with a stone or metal spike at the head.

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That's nice but this is still clearly a hammer.

http://ff11db.sakura.ne.jp/database/...%20Jadagna.jpg

Who cares? So there's one exception to the rule (they look identical, maybe a new class altogether). They look nothing like hammers imo. Still, PLD can't use the vast majority of hammers, with (maybe) one exception.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

They look nothing like hammers imo.

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It looks like an ornate hammer with a round head to me.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

PLD can't use the vast majority of hammers, with (maybe) one exception.

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DNC can't use any of the "parrying knife" class of daggers with one exception, and only that because it's a Magian weapon.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Except that those are clearly hammers and not maces.

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You're misconstruing the shape, it is not a hammer.

It's Jadagna-class, not Maul-class (aka, Hammers).

On that note, they should add great mauls and war hammers. They will be 2 handed weapons, but still be under the club catagory.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

That's nice but this is still clearly a hammer.

http://ff11db.sakura.ne.jp/database/...%20Jadagna.jpg

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Looks like a club with a stone fixed at the head to me. Ohwait that's exactly what I said.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Looks like a club with a stone fixed at the head to me. Ohwait that's exactly what I said.

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Isn't that what a hammer is?

This is like arguing over whether or not Adargas should be classified as Cesti =/.

For Reference:

http://wiki.ffo.jp/img/6470/Adargas.jpg

There really are weapon classes that may only have one or two examples in the entire game. Classifying Jadagnas as Mauls/Hammers is just bad form. They're Jadagnas, like Adargas are Adargas.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

DNC can't use any of the "parrying knife" class of daggers with one exception, and only that because it's a Magian weapon.

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Wait, I can't?

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

You're misconstruing the shape, it is not a hammer.

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It's a hammer. Apparently you've never seen a ball-peen hammer. They have round heads.

... You can't be serious. Look at the Jadagna. Look at a Ball-peen hammer. Look back at the Jadagna, then back at the Ball-peen hammer.
Sadly, the Jadagna is not a ball-peen hammer, but you can keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

... You can't be serious. Look at the Jadagna. Look at a Ball-peen hammer. Look back at the Jadagna.
Sadly, the Jadagna is not a ball-peen hammer, but you can keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night.

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I don't give a rat's behind what the *back* of the hammer looks like. The "back" part of the hammer which you refer to isn't even required for a tool to be called a "hammer." The Jadagna is very similar to a ball peen hammer. Not identical, no. But similar enough that you could place them in a similar category of blunt instruments with round striking surfaces on the end.

And yes, I sleep very well at night, thank you.

The Jadagna is a medieval club and a weapon. The ball-peen hammer is a hammer and a 'metalworking' tool.

Do enjoy your sleep.

none of the weapons are construction tools. your point is invalid.

Noted and edited.

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The ball-peen hammer is a hammer

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Since when was it not possible to use a "metalworking tool" as a weapon? The pen on my desk right now makes a good stabbing weapon if I want it to be one. Just because different objects were created with different purposes in mind, doesn't mean they can't be used for some other purpose.

The point is, they are similar objects with similar shapes.

All Mauls are clubs (in game category), but not all clubs (in game category) are Mauls.The Jadagna is a club (in game category), and still not a Maul. That's it.

It looks like a hammer with some decorations on it. Most of the club weapons in the game don't even look like weapons anyways. Who ever heard of someone getting beat down with a wand? I've heard of people casting spells with wands. Ive heard of people getting beat down with "metal Working" tools. I've never heard of anyone getting beat with a wand (maybe it happened in a nerdy S&M club?). None of the game categories are completely flawless. This is a silly argument.

I move that Dancer be put on the Club and Great sword relics. Screw tradition.