Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

Benthic, the new Cannonball.

Just as accurate too!

Edit: well, without /THF that is....

As BLU/THF, give me Vanity Dive. BT is ok as well (inventory space is too taxing for an effective AGI build), but since I have DEX builds for CDC and CW farming VD tends to be a hot spell to use. 5~8k SACA/EFF

I didn't know people still subbed THF...

BLU's spike damage is good, but I'm pretty sure good DPS is better.

Spike damage tends to be slightly less...TP feedy though.

It has its uses...just that use hasn't arisen since like 2004

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Almace does make Red Mage melee better, a lot better. And that happens to help bring it up from what people consider "Unacceptably bad" to "Acceptably good enough".

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You're still not seeing the difference between strengthen what is there and make something exist from nothingness. RDM melee pre-Almace is not even on the table. That's what basically needs to change. You'd have a decent argument if across all levels we had RDMs in melee gear getting invites to melee instead of the lolrefreshplz thing. Then you can make the claim that Almace simply boosts RDM melee, and I'd agree with you 100%.

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There is no game design fault here. People are simply considerably less inclined to give gimps free reign to do whatever the hell they want in a group and just assume that they're contributing what they need to contribute. If you came up to me in full teal and a joyeuse and told me you were a DD-only who refused to cast any magic spells because it would detract from your super freaking awesome savage blade damage, I'd tell you to get lost.

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Despite having more than full teal and a joyeuse, I've still been told to heal or gtfo. I'm not super geared, and I'll be the first one to admit it, but I understand the concept of wearing melee gear to melee. Sadly, that's not enough to justify front-lining because a caster-based RDM is much more valuable to the group in the current game (I'll get to the mechanics part of all this soon enough, by the way), hence why I'm so adamant about a needed change to give front-liners and back-liners both what they want out of the class instead of leaving the melee camp as some outcast that is pretty much "redeemed" by one weapon.

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If you came up to me rocking an Almace/Khanda or Almace/Fleuret combo with a capped Haste TP set and legit macros, and asked me if I wouldn't mind you melee'ing if you were capable of doing so while also performing and prioritizing the magical functions that I invited you for, more freaking power to you.

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This is another issue, and as a part of that problem, you don't seem to realize it. The short version, though, is as follows: I shouldn't have to beg you for permission to melee.

It'd be one thing if class dynamics allowed me to be more open and look for group or join a group while stating that I'm melee-focused. Then I'd be fine with a party leader telling me something like "sorry, we're looking for back-line support" or "we're actually looking for heals". It'd be even nicer if there was some obvious distinction between the melee'ers and the back-liners (in before "one is bad, one is good lolz"). We may not have fancy titles like Elemental, Retribution, Enhancing, Feral Combat or Balance, but we do have the job/subjob combos to go by.

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If you want to do whatever you want (be it melee or whatever, I don't even care), be good enough at it that you're not a total leech on me and everyone else with me. Because it's very possible within the game to do so.

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You're contradicting yourself, since you put emphasis in melee with the "normal" buff duties attached then hint you'd be alright as long as one is "good" enough.

Part of what I mentioned above is connected to the "people problem", which you seem to hint is enough to dismiss the claims of the melee camp. What you have not acknowledged is that the "people problem" comes about and is affected by game mechanics. The same thing that created the "people problem" for PLDs when NIN tanking took over, the same "people problem" (admittedly combined with really bad PR) that DRGs suffered under when they were considered gimp, the same "people problem" that ousted WHM from healing in parties during TAU, the same "people problem" that sentenced BST for years of solo play, the same "people problem" that condemned SMN to playing /WHM before the developers got their heads out of the sand; and, yes, the same "people problem" that relegated melee as a solo toy for RDM.

I mention mechanics in terms of RDM melee because without proper in-game support (something beyond subjob and melee gear) it has proven to not be enough. You have issues with redundancy, which is specially devastating to the melee camp because what is currently expected of our job is to run refresh and haste cycles with enfeebling tacked on for variety. We can't do all that in the front because that takes away from the point of being in the front lines, not to mention that in its current incarnation a caster-focused RDM can do that much better with much less risk involved.

This is why I feel melee needs to have its own emphasized elements and reason for being in the party. Where some feel utility will be pivotal in saving us, I feel more damage and some front-exclusive utility (preferably on the enfeebling side with a couple of party-wide buffs to facilitate front-lining and for placebo purposes in the case of the nay-sayers) will do the trick. More melee gear and weapon skill access will also help. The main part of all this, however, is that this isn't something that should be tossed at RDM at a really late level in the game, but more something for a RDM to grow into as they level. I hope that it isn't that difficult to understand why the melee camp feels the way it feels, and why most of us just sighed in disdain when we saw SE yet again not even acknowledge our existence.

You really don't seem to get that there is no arbitrary line between "Total crap" and "Good enough" except for what the observing player dictates. That's fine, though. I've come to expect that.

But really, I'm not sure I get why people are so concerned with pre-90 job dynamics. They are drastically different at 90 across the board with pretty much everybody anyways. Pre-75 Paladin is worlds different from Post-75 Paladin. The same is true for just about everybody else. There is no "growing into" phase that you have to hit in order to be able to do something at 90, because just about no one plays the same way at 90 as in EXP parties before 90.

That's still assuming that EXP parties exist, too. Abyssea leeching and Summoner burning are very real things, and many people will simply absolutely not play Red Mage from 30-90 at all. Does that mean they're going to be total crap at it? Absolutely not. But any weird little melee buff to RDM40 is not going to do a damn thing for just about 95% of the FFXI population.

But really, if someone invites a Red Mage to support, that is on the person doing the inviting. When you, or anyone, joins a group, you do what the group leader believes is in the best interest of the group, or you leave and get another group. If you have trouble finding groups because you want to do something that people feel is contrary to what you should be doing, then you're just going to have to deal with that. No amount of melee buffing to Red Mage is going to change people's mind about how much crap it is, or change the fact that what they want when they /sea all RDM is a support-class mage rather than yet another little pokey pokey stab stab.

If you have a group of friends that lets you melee, more power to you. But if you want to change the mind of the entire community, you're going to have to realize that it will never, ever happen as long as the average melee RDM remains so utterly horrible to be around. The average melee Rdm is absolutely useless. They'll show up to a group, and then refuse to cast spells. It's like "DD only Ninjas" who like sub Thf and refuse to cast Utsusemi because they're so unbelievably gimp/cheap that they can't afford bloody shihei. Your average melee Rdm makes everybody's life harder. They'll sit there and let people die despite having a full load of MP. They won't even Refresh the bloody White Mage, that is stuck Hasting them. And worst of all, they really do run around in full teal and a joyeuse and think they're doing jack bloody squat with their crappy enspell damage, 50% accuracy, 0% Haste gear, 300 attack, and 50 damage fast blades.

If you want people in the community to take melee Rdm seriously, provide examples of Red Mages who melee that don't freaking suck. Because, while the exceedingly rare one might exist, no one is ever going to invite a random Red Mage to a group and even entertain the possibility that they might be one of them.

Edit: Just to prove a point, Doombringer for example is one of the best melee Red Mages I've actually seen. And he still has a good chunk of gear he could improve on. He doesn't have a Zelus, and isn't using Goliard/ACP body. But he still only parsed like 40% of a comparably geared Monk despite getting March/Madrigal instead of March/March. If he's only parsing 40% in a situation where he's getting a buff advantage and barely doing any casting, people with weaker gear than him and/or people who're actually going to be casting spells are going to be contributing jack bloody squat.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

His wiki forums profile claims he's on Carbuncle, so we may yet escape his idiocy.

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One thing we can be sure of, I'm not on Bahamut server.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You really don't seem to get that there is no arbitrary line between "Total crap" and "Good enough" except for what the observing player dictates. That's fine, though. I've come to expect that.

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The fact that the collective (or as you call it, "people") decreed our melee as useless in a party is enough of an indication of where we stand. Otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

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But really, I'm not sure I get why people are so concerned with pre-90 job dynamics. They are drastically different at 90 across the board with pretty much everybody anyways. Pre-75 Paladin is worlds different from Post-75 Paladin. The same is true for just about everybody else. There is no "growing into" phase that you have to hit in order to be able to do something at 90, because just about no one plays the same way at 90 as in EXP parties before 90.

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You seem to forget the pre-75 dynamics are what set our trends to stone when we started doing endgame. If you see class X doing something between lv10 when you started partying in the dunes all the way until you hit 75 to start grinding merits, then by god you're going to expect that class to continue doing as it exactly was for those 65 levels. It's even proven to work retroactively, with guys making NINs tank in the dunes despite the fact NIN tanking doesn't really work until you get Utsusemi Ni at 37.

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That's still assuming that EXP parties exist, too. Abyssea leeching and Summoner burning are very real things, and many people will simply absolutely not play Red Mage from 30-90 at all. Does that mean they're going to be total crap at it? Absolutely not. But any weird little melee buff to RDM40 is not going to do a damn thing for just about 95% of the FFXI population.

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You'd be surprised. There's people out there who, much like me, are stuck with irregular work schedules. This means I rarely see the same people twice when I do get a chance to log on. This means we try to party if time allows and spam FoV when possible.

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But really, if someone invites a Red Mage to support, that is on the person doing the inviting. When you, or anyone, joins a group, you do what the group leader believes is in the best interest of the group, or you leave and get another group.

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Which would be fine...if RDM was a real choice for a front-liner. This would mean that for every guy that is looking for a healer or buffer there's also a guy looking to fill a melee slot in his party that would be willing to take you. That's clearly not the case.

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But if you want to change the mind of the entire community, you're going to have to realize that it will never, ever happen as long as the average melee RDM remains so utterly horrible to be around. The average melee Rdm is absolutely useless. They'll show up to a group, and then refuse to cast spells....Your average melee Rdm makes everybody's life harder. They'll sit there and let people die despite having a full load of MP. They won't even Refresh the bloody White Mage, that is stuck Hasting them.

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Let's stop right there and look at performance relative to role before we continue.

1) Not casting spells.
2) Not casting emergency cures.
3) Not casting Refresh.
4) Not casting haste on themselves.

#1 I agree with complaining about that 100%. At the same time, I look at mechanics in the front line (of which none exist in the case of RDM) and do take into account how much melee time is lost while casting and whether that somehow makes up for the damage lost and thus lesser performance in the front lines.

#2 I agree with as well, but what I would love is something to facilitate off-healing in emergencies. Again, nothing exists for RDM in that regard. At least nothing built into the class to tell the player "this is what you do when you want to heal someone in an emergency".

#3 I'll concede on if and only if Refresh is changed to a long duration spell (I'm talking 10 minutes baseline) when the Red Mage is in melee. An alternative would be for Refresh to proc on the party when the RDM uses a weapon skill, with the effect being maintained by the RDM hitting the target - only applicable while in the front lines, of course. Cycle spells have no place in the front lines.

#4 See my reply to #3. I admit, it's a pain to constantly rebuff, and it's the reason I suggested Readiness (basically cast 4 buffs on yourself at the same time) in the melee thread.

To continue, I'm of the mind enfeebling in particular could be tied into melee in a way unique to RDM (using RDM's own enfeebling magic in a different way). Elemental magic could be tied to RDM melee as well to give some use to those spells available to us. That way you reap certain benefits from a front line RDM and get different benefits from a back line RDM. A very rough idea, though I do have my proposed redesign sitting around here somewhere...

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Just to prove a point, Doombringer for example is one of the best melee Red Mages I've actually seen. And he still has a good chunk of gear he could improve on. He doesn't have a Zelus, and isn't using Goliard/ACP body. But he still only parsed like 40% of a comparably geared Monk despite getting March/Madrigal instead of March/March. If he's only parsing 40% in a situation where he's getting a buff advantage and barely doing any casting, people with weaker gear than him and/or people who're actually going to be casting spells are going to be contributing jack bloody squat.

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I saw the parses as well. All I got from that is that the damage, as I have mentioned before, needs a buff. On your comment about casting, I'll say it is also testament to the fact the melee and caster sides of RDM do not play nice with each other.

And, saving this one for last:

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No amount of melee buffing to Red Mage is going to change people's mind about how much crap it is, or change the fact that what they want when they /sea all RDM is a support-class mage rather than yet another little pokey pokey stab stab.

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A bold claim, but I'll be happy to counter.

There once was a class that happened to be in the exact same pickle RDM has been in for years. Toward whom people reacted the exact same way whenever melee was brought up. With very similar design (sword & magic hybrid, limited healing capability, buffs, utility right out of the box, even some real defensive moves), and the same shortcomings (low damage compared to the "real" front-liners, ease in being pigeonholed to buffbot and healer, little in-game support for a melee-oriented playstyle). Whose melee camp was called selfish for not wanting to sit pretty and let the "real heroes" stand in the front lines while they wore dresses and hung back with the priests. Whose melee camp also went to great lengths to argue for their style of play, and faced major resistance not only from players of other classes, but also players within their own class. Sound familiar?

Anyway, the melee buffs came and went. And you know what happened? It was suddenly okay for them to melee in groups. If you chose to front line and were geared for it, you were more than welcome to swing your weapon; hell, you didn't have to wear best-in-slot gear or wielding legendaries for people to accept you melee'ing things. The guys that liked healing and buffing got to continue doing so, while the melee camp happily did what they had wanted to do all along. It was a win for everyone.

So please, don't tell me it's impossible, because I was there when it happened. Hence my constant mentioning that RDM's issues aren't exclusive to this game. The first thing that came to mind when I saw it turn out the way it did was "this is the idea SE should follow to fix RDM".

Does anyone else find it rather ironic and insulting that SE has such a huge boner for DRK casting magic, and they haven't even pulled down the zipper on their pants so to speak:

And given us magic attack bonus I?

Just sayin'.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

Does anyone else find it rather ironic and insulting that SE has such a huge boner for DRK casting magic, and they haven't even pulled down the zipper on their pants so to speak:

And given us magic attack bonus I?

Just sayin'.

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That is because they still haven't understood why DRKs are so dumb that they do not sub BLM for it.

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The fact that the collective (or as you call it, "people") decreed our melee as useless in a party is enough of an indication of where we stand. Otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

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People are dumb. Which makes it tempting to say anyone against melee is dumb, except it isn't a full truth. It is however extreme stupidity to say "Extra 400 damage for free is bad for the party" when talking about bringing someone who doesn't do 2k damage to the mob. Melee is only bad if it means you are skipping something vital. Like a RDM giving completely up on Haste spells to melee.

The arguments that someone does only a little damage is just so silly when in the end it is ADDITIONAL damage. Might as well say that BRDs are pointless, because they don't do any damage, they only add a small amount of damage to each party member.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

Does anyone else find it rather ironic and insulting that SE has such a huge boner for DRK casting magic, and they haven't even pulled down the zipper on their pants so to speak:

And given us magic attack bonus I?

Just sayin'.

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After discussing it so much...

I have no idea what SE could possibly want for DRK.

"Here guys have a FREAKING AWESOME GREATSWORD WITH A WS WORTH USING EVEN THOUGH IT DON'T CRIT"

"Here guys, have a 3minute long, 25% JOB ABILITY haste ability, so you can get TP super fast."

"Guys we think it's about time you stopped WSing all together. Auto-Attacks is where DRK is at."

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

That is because they still haven't understood why DRKs are so dumb that they do not sub BLM for it.

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what the...

I...

I don't know if I...

Can handle how stupid this comment is.

As for SMN melee, the problems are:

TP Feed to the NM (YES THIS IS A PROBLEM. THIS IS WHY MNK+WHM DUO IS EASIER THAN ALL OF YOU RTARDS ATTACKING THE MOB.)
SMN Survivability
SMN not providing the support that it should.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Melee is only bad if it means you are skipping something vital. Like a RDM giving completely up on Haste spells to melee.

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This is assuming the class has to do the same things it does in the back row while front-lining. I've already covered that it's not possible and takes away from the point of being in the front.

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what the...
I...
I don't know if I...
Can handle how stupid this comment is.

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I'm guessing you're not getting the vibe of Mala's comment being his way of making fun of how the developers think, right? Sad as it may be, if someone came up and told me this is the devs' counter argument to the DRKs complaining about their part of the manifesto, I would feel inclined to believe them.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

People are dumb. Which makes it tempting to say anyone against melee is dumb, except it isn't a full truth. It is however extreme stupidity to say "Extra 400 damage for free is bad for the party" when talking about bringing someone who doesn't do 2k damage to the mob. Melee is only bad if it means you are skipping something vital. Like a RDM giving completely up on Haste spells to melee.

The arguments that someone does only a little damage is just so silly when in the end it is ADDITIONAL damage. Might as well say that BRDs are pointless, because they don't do any damage, they only add a small amount of damage to each party member.

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/facepalm

By meleeing, you're putting yourself in danger of being killed or taking damage which requires the healer to split up resources further. Battles where SMN shine also happen to be battles where getting close means being subject to AOE damage.

You can melee trash mobs if you want in Abyssea and im pretty fond of Garland of Bliss (sooooooo sparkly) myself but really it comes down to:

"Is my crap damage worth hitting this mob?"

For SMN, the answer is usually no.

Dont even bring up BRD. Elegy is one of the most potent debuffs in the game and Marches/Carols/Threnodies/Ballads are worth more than any amount of crappy dagger melee.

I have a melee set for BRD but it surely won't be used outside Abyssea because with 3 songs to keep perpetually up, I just don't have the time.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

For SMN, the answer is always no.

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Fixed that for you.

I mean, given the choice between a melee SMN and...well, anything else. Which would you rather have?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Fixed that for you.

I mean, given the choice between a melee SMN and...well, anything else. Which would you rather have?

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SMN haste mule, can hastega his party and just rotate haste on everyone else in the alliance. Would probably prove to be more useful than anything and mp conservative if the SMN was competent enough to do it.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

SMN haste mule, can hastega his party and just rotate haste on everyone else in the alliance. Would probably prove to be more useful than anything and mp conservative if the SMN was competent enough to do it.

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Yeah, but that mule isn't meleeing, are they?

That is the point in the argument. SMN isn't there as a melee, but as a buffer. If the SMN was there as a melee, they can be replaced by another job very easy.

That's what I'm saying, I can't see myself inviting a SMN melee to anything.

I think you are missing his point.

You aren't inviting a summoner to melee. You are inviting him to do summoner things.
His meleeing simply supplies him with a virtually endless MP supply.

The only issue is that White Mage has been able to this since Mystic Boon and the same reason they aren't in the front wacking things for unlimited MP are the same reasons a Summoner shouldn't be...well maybe minus the enmity issues.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

I think you are missing his point.

You aren't inviting a summoner to melee. You are inviting him to do summoner things.
His meleeing simply supplies him with a virtually endless MP supply.

The only issue is that White Mage has been able to this since Mystic Boon and the same reason they aren't in the front wacking things for unlimited MP are the same reasons a Summoner shouldn't be...well maybe minus the enmity issues.

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A well geared SMN doesn't need to melee to keep MP up indefinitely either.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

A well geared SMN doesn't need to melee to keep MP up indefinitely either.

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Exactly white space

I'd have to say I like your new sig much better than the previous, Korpg

Old sig was made 2 years ago, so yeah, it was a little dated lol

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Originally Posted by Razushu

A well geared SMN doesn't need to melee to keep MP up indefinitely either.

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On the other hand, a well geared SMN doesn't have to stand in the back either. The whole argument of "doesn't have to" is pretty meaningless when it is something you want to do anyway.

That is like saying "You don't have to win the lottery"... but you wouldn't mind it, would you?

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

On the other hand, a well geared SMN doesn't have to stand in the back either. The whole argument of "doesn't have to" is pretty meaningless when it is something you want to do anyway.

That is like saying "You don't have to win the lottery"... but you wouldn't mind it, would you?

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I wasn't saying never melee. I was responding to a post that meleeing will give you unlimited MP. Which is like saying "Hey let's go out for steak", while you're eating steak.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

That is because they still haven't understood why DRKs are so dumb that they do not sub BLM for it.

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sub rdm! . .

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The fact that the collective (or as you call it, "people") decreed our melee as useless in a party is enough of an indication of where we stand. Otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

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I sort of agree, except instead of "decreed", I would say "realized". It was SE who designed the game mechanics that make RDM melee weak and often counterproductive (starting with no A weapons, and B only in weak weapons, but going on with base stats weighted toward casting, no melee-supporting JAs or traits until Composure, and of course the fact that mobs gain full TP from weak attacks).

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#2 I agree with as well, but what I would love is something to facilitate off-healing in emergencies. Again, nothing exists for RDM in that regard. At least nothing built into the class to tell the player "this is what you do when you want to heal someone in an emergency".

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Um... cast cure spells? What are you looking for, a heal with the casting time of Stun? (Judging from the end of your post, maybe...)

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#3 I'll concede on if and only if Refresh is changed to a long duration spell (I'm talking 10 minutes baseline) when the Red Mage is in melee.

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It's already 7:30 with Composure, whether you're in melee or not. Of course if you want to have powerful buffs for other party members *and* powerful melee without them interfering with each other... then why would people invite the powerful melee that don't also have powerful buffs? (Why does COR do less damage than RNG? Because it also does other things.)

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An alternative would be for Refresh to proc on the party when the RDM uses a weapon skill, with the effect being maintained by the RDM hitting the target - only applicable while in the front lines, of course. Cycle spells have no place in the front lines.

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And jobs based on those spells...? You keep getting 99% of the way to the conclusion that RDM was never designed to be a frontline job at higher levels on non-trivial content, but refusing to reach that conclusion.

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To continue, I'm of the mind enfeebling in particular could be tied into melee in a way unique to RDM (using RDM's own enfeebling magic in a different way). Elemental magic could be tied to RDM melee as well to give some use to those spells available to us. That way you reap certain benefits from a front line RDM and get different benefits from a back line RDM. A very rough idea, though I do have my proposed redesign sitting around here somewhere...

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It seems to me that it would be not so much a *re*design as a design for a new job. Which might be interesting, and I might even want to level it, but I'd like to keep my RDM too (and so would a large number of other RDMs, probably the majority). It's just not reasonable to expect one job to be two jobs to any more of an extent than RDM already is. This isn't a Hasso vs. Seigan type of difference. It's a RDM vs. DRK type of difference. (In fact, probably a lot of your ideas would make great additions to DRK; they're heavily focused on 2h weapons and have only one enspell, but other than that, they'd be a better foundation for melee-enfeeblers than RDM would).

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There once was a class that happened to be in the exact same pickle RDM has been in for years. Toward whom people reacted the exact same way whenever melee was brought up. With very similar design (sword & magic hybrid, limited healing capability, buffs, utility right out of the box, even some real defensive moves), and the same shortcomings (low damage compared to the "real" front-liners, ease in being pigeonholed to buffbot and healer, little in-game support for a melee-oriented playstyle). Whose melee camp was called selfish for not wanting to sit pretty and let the "real heroes" stand in the front lines while they wore dresses and hung back with the priests. Whose melee camp also went to great lengths to argue for their style of play, and faced major resistance not only from players of other classes, but also players within their own class. Sound familiar?

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Not terribly, but I think I know where you're going with this. Except that if you're talking about what I think you're talking about, they were never designed to *also* have good crowd control, decent nuking, the only true snare in the game, the best anticaster abilities in the game, enfeebles that can seriously reduce a mob's DPS... you're leaving out half of RDM's toolbox for the simple reason that the class I think you're talking about never had those abilities (and still doesn't, IIRC). Which negates your point about "very similar design".

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Anyway, the melee buffs came and went. And you know what happened? It was suddenly okay for them to melee in groups. If you chose to front line and were geared for it, you were more than welcome to swing your weapon; hell, you didn't have to wear best-in-slot gear or wielding legendaries for people to accept you melee'ing things. The guys that liked healing and buffing got to continue doing so, while the melee camp happily did what they had wanted to do all along. It was a win for everyone.

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The terminology suggests that you're talking about WoW, most likely paladin. But WoW specs (especially post-Cata) are much more different from each other than subjob choices. They're practically different jobs with dramatically different playstyles, abilities, gear choices, etc. (especially specs that have different roles). There are a few abilities in common, half of which aren't even used after low levels because they're superseded by spec-specific (or spec-enhanced) abilities. FF is never going to have a job that's three or four jobs in one; on the other hand I doubt WoW will ever have 20 classes. In practically everything except having to level them separately, it would be more appropriate to compare FFXI jobs to WoW *specs* rather than classes, especially for classes whose specs have radically divergent playstyles like Paladin and Druid (even druid's 2 DPS specs are as different from each other as completely different jobs).

Oh, and holy paladins (the ones that people didn't want meleeing) still don't deal good melee DPS. They're primarily... healers (albeit frontline ones). If you want strong melee damage you have to spec retribution, at which point you can't heal worth crap (or fill any role other than DPS, which WoW, like this game, has a massive excess of).

There was also a lot of encounter redesign involved in the rebirth of holy paladin melee, wasn't there? Specifically, the near-total elimination of PBAOEs from Wrath and Cata boss fights, replacing them with damage to random targets and "don't stand in the fire" mechanics? FFXI still has plenty of PBAOEs and center-on-tank AOEs (both damaging and enfeebling), not to mention the TP mechanic, to make the bar for "it's more useful for you to melee than to stay away" a lot higher. This is already a big problem for the job that's *designed* to be a frontline healer and support (DNC). It would be worse for melee RDM, which is why people tell RDM not to melee in those fights.

If you could somehow translate WoW holy paladins into FFXI they'd probably be asked to stay the heck away from the caturae, ironclads, wyrms, chariots, etc... because their meager melee output doesn't make up for the disadvantages (in FFXI) of having unnecessarily many people close to/feeding TP to a boss. Conversely, if RDMs could somehow be translated into post-Cata WoW and had a melee tree, it would be about as effective at healing, enfeebling, or CC as your average DPS feral or enhancement shaman.

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Originally Posted by Karinya_of_Carbuncle

Um... cast cure spells? What are you looking for, a heal with the casting time of Stun? (Judging from the end of your post, maybe...)

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Ah, you're familiar with what I speak of. Yes, I'd love to have something like the original Art of War mechanic for RDM. In all honesty, though, I don't think FFXI's game engine would support it without an on-demand JA, which would kind of defeat the whole purpose of the mechanic.

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It's already 7:30 with Composure, whether you're in melee or not. Of course if you want to have powerful buffs for other party members *and* powerful melee without them interfering with each other... then why would people invite the powerful melee that don't also have powerful buffs? (Why does COR do less damage than RNG? Because it also does other things.)

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COR has the benefit of being in ranged. The only thing holding it back are the people who still play it as COR/WHM spamming only quickdraw and rolls. Leaden Salute and the hexaguns are actually quite nice.

By the way, Refresh = powerful buffs? That's a laugh.

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And jobs based on those spells...? You keep getting 99% of the way to the conclusion that RDM was never designed to be a frontline job at higher levels on non-trivial content, but refusing to reach that conclusion.

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Bad design is bad design. And the basis for me even saying any of this is that as long as Red Mage's archetype remains sword&magic hybrid, I'll still treat it as a class that is simply lacking what it needs to actually live up to what its archetype was created for. Besides, basing jobs on those two spells is asking for trouble.

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It seems to me that it would be not so much a *re*design as a design for a new job. Which might be interesting, and I might even want to level it, but I'd like to keep my RDM too (and so would a large number of other RDMs, probably the majority).

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You assume I wouldn't keep the current RDM playstyle largely if not entirely intact. I don't limit myself to "one role per class" unlike others around here. I never bothered to flesh it out, but that's because no one wants to discuss it with me. >.>;

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Not terribly, but I think I know where you're going with this. Except that if you're talking about what I think you're talking about, they were never designed to *also* have good crowd control, decent nuking, the only true snare in the game, the best anticaster abilities in the game, enfeebles that can seriously reduce a mob's DPS... you're leaving out half of RDM's toolbox for the simple reason that the class I think you're talking about never had those abilities (and still doesn't, IIRC). Which negates your point about "very similar design".

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If you meant Bind and Gravity, sure, I can concede on those. Repentance is actually pretty damn good crowd control since that was changed into an incapacitate from a stun that only worked on undead. "Anticaster" is pretty much limited to silence, not to mention our soulmate class has to deal with classes that can instantly cast spells, which don't really exist in this game. As far as the enfeebles part, both played a similar role, just in different ways. Paralyze doesn't exist in that other game, and Slow was given to the warriors, so we had to settle for extra damage taken and +haste to the party/raid and +damage.

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But WoW specs (especially post-Cata) are much more different from each other than subjob choices. They're practically different jobs with dramatically different playstyles, abilities, gear choices, etc. (especially specs that have different roles). There are a few abilities in common, half of which aren't even used after low levels because they're superseded by spec-specific (or spec-enhanced) abilities.

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You err here. Hybrids in WoW have a baseline common factor. This is the case for druids, shaman and paladins. It's just much more pronounced for pallies because shaman specs go all over the place and druids have a shape-shifting mechanic to act as a limiting factor. Pallies, on the other hand, and just like RDM, have access to everything out of the box regardless of spec (which was largely the reason why ret was purposely kept gimp due to the "your damage is low because of your utility" mantra). You don't have forms to separate them or anything else. And believe me, I was there during the debates where some of us rets were saying "just do what you did with priests and give us a melee form".

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FF is never going to have a job that's three or four jobs in one; on the other hand I doubt WoW will ever have 20 classes.

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That's not what I'm asking for. What I'm asking for is for the hybrid classes (not just RDM) to have their different roles be actually relevant in group content. WoW is the most recent example I've seen of this, which is why I quote it so much. I was also part of the ret (AKA melee) paladin movement that wanted to see our spec become a real contender for front-lining instead of the gimp and useless joke it was in Vanilla and a large part of The Burning Crusade (very much like melee RDM currently is in this game). So yeah, I'm familiar with all the nay-sayer excuses and failed arguments, and know they're full of s**t because I've seen it turn out differently and for the better of the class.

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Oh, and holy paladins (the ones that people didn't want meleeing) still don't deal good melee DPS. They're primarily... healers (albeit frontline ones).

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Holy paladins healing is fine. They're the healer spec and I'd expect them to do as such unless they want to do something crazy like a shockadin spec (not that it's possible at all post-Cata). And they don't really front line to heal. They stay in the back, since even with the new Holy Power mechanic, they can just use Holy Shock to build up their HoPo charges.

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If you want strong melee damage you have to spec retribution, at which point you can't heal worth crap

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If I were to take anything from any era of WoW, I'd focus more on WotLK Ret, where you could use your Art of War procs to heal and while not getting the massive heals from a real healer, where nice in a pinch without gobbling up your entire mana bar. I've saved my healers from near wipes several times while raiding, which is why I grew to like that mechanic so much.

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Specifically, the near-total elimination of PBAOEs from Wrath and Cata boss fights, replacing them with damage to random targets and "don't stand in the fire" mechanics?

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Not really. You still had raid damage to take into account as a whole (Ulduar is a good example of this). No, you didn't have encounters with massive positioning requirements (like Brutallus in sunwell plateau), but not all bosses are like Noth the plaguebringer or Patchwerk, either. >.>;

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FFXI still has plenty of PBAOEs and center-on-tank AOEs (both damaging and enfeebling), not to mention the TP mechanic, to make the bar for "it's more useful for you to melee than to stay away" a lot higher. This is already a big problem for the job that's *designed* to be a frontline healer and support (DNC). It would be worse for melee RDM, which is why people tell RDM not to melee in those fights.

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Encounter and class design are two different things. What I can say however is that yes, the devs were short-sighted or are very limited by XI's game engine to create challenging content. I don't know about you, but I got the feeling they were scraping the bottom of the barrel when I saw all those enfeeble auras on several of the abyssea NMs. It's like fighting maiden of virtue except without the built-in ways to get your damage in between aura "ticks". Which yes, makes encounters very melee unfriendly. That's a discussion for another topic, though, because I'm sure the WARs and SAMs and DRGs and DRKs of the game would like to be more than just cheerleaders or be told to change to their mage jobs so often when it comes to this stuff.

As for your last paragraph, I use ret paladins as my point of comparison because, as I mentioned earlier, Paladins have access to all their utility out of the box regardless of spec. The gear and the spec is what pushes them to be accepted melee front-liners should they choose to (emphasis on choose). RDM has their utility right out of the box, but without the benefits of mechanics and DPS to help them justify their being in the front lines. A RDM with feral druid limitations would mean it can only melee and go through a convoluted process to get one spell off. A RDM with enh. shaman limitations...well, lets just say I don't wish a playstyle entirely centered on objects that need to be placed on the ground every time you move on anyone.

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hexaguns are actually quite nice

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Ugh...

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I wasn't saying never melee. I was responding to a post that meleeing will give you unlimited MP. Which is like saying "Hey let's go out for steak", while you're eating steak.

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If I'm hungry, I'd go for two steaks!

I think you are being greedy here.

What is the point in meleeing for MP when you don't have any MP issues as is?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I think you are being greedy here.

What is the point in meleeing for MP when you don't have any MP issues as is?

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That is probably when it becomes meleeing for fun. I am allowed to have fun, right? Or are we having fun issues?

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

If I'm hungry, I'd go for two steaks!

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Or one giant steak(my preferred choice).XD

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

That is probably when it becomes meleeing for fun. I am allowed to have fun, right? Or are we having fun issues?

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Enjoyment lags the server,didn't you know. lol

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

That is probably when it becomes meleeing for fun. I am allowed to have fun, right? Or are we having fun issues?

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You think whacking stuff with a stick is fun? Try WAR, you might actually like it.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I wasn't saying never melee. I was responding to a post that meleeing will give you unlimited MP. Which is like saying "Hey let's go out for steak", while you're eating steak.

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Translation = "Hey, I have enough MP already to handle my BP: Rage. Since I'm already doing damage, I don't need to Assault or Melee! Cure 4? Nah, SMN/RDM has Cure 3! I'm already a healer!"

Enjoy your freezer burned pot roast, steak is steak!

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Translation = "Hey, I have enough MP already to handle my BP: Rage. Since I'm already doing damage, I don't need to Assault or Melee! Cure 4? Nah, SMN/RDM has Cure 3! I'm already a healer!"

Enjoy your freezer burned pot roast, steak is steak!

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Now you are just gasping for air.

Is MP really your only argument?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Translation = "Hey, I have enough MP already to handle my BP: Rage. Since I'm already doing damage, I don't need to Assault or Melee! Cure 4? Nah, SMN/RDM has Cure 3! I'm already a healer!"

Enjoy your freezer burned pot roast, steak is steak!

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I use /WHM if I'm going to be curing alot(also at 99 cap /RDM will give Cure IV). I have enough MP to handle everything rages, wards, /spells. It's better to be giving out Cure IVs than crying non-stop for R3.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I use /WHM if I'm going to be curing alot(also at 99 cap /RDM will give Cure IV). I have enough MP to handle everything rages, wards, /spells. It's better to be giving out Cure IVs than crying non-stop for R3.

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you got to give him the benefit of the doubt. He should at least have RR for the first death.