No interest is supplying more napkin math but Ejiin one of the top DDs on any server and also part of one of the most successful NA Legion groups swears by WAR with Ragnarok. (he has 99 Ukon as well)
Saevel - agreed on the dDEX, you are going to be pretty much floored on 2nd tier+ Legion.
One thing nobody has mentioned is Tomahawk and how important that is on top tier mobs.
DRK is 3x more OP than vanilla WAR's Ukko's Fury
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08-18-2012, 01:22 AMTaint2
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08-18-2012, 03:50 AMwish12ozWhen we started Legion I just kind of assumed mobs would have around 130 AGL, but we saw some strange 'that looks way to high' crit rates around 140 DEX. Theres lots of reasons we could be seeing those numbers though, small sample sizes and all, but Im not convinced mobs in Legion even have 110 AGL anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
DRK should always be attack capped as long as you bring a COR and a BRD, even with 100 TP Resolutions.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taint2
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post344183Quote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
Page 3
And thats the correct thing to do when all your other DDs are DRKs andf you're the token WAR for the COR roll. Since you dont have other WARs to cycle bloodrage, you cycle warcry and Resolution will end up being better. My arguement is that Ukon is better when you use 1 DRK and a bunch of WARs. And also that a setup of a bunch of WARs and 1 DRK is superior to lots of DRKs and 1 WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taint2
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08-18-2012, 05:27 AMTaint2
His group uses atleast 2 WARs for Tomahawk. Sometimes you try too hard to justify Ukon. 5 WARs just to keep bloodrage up seems like a stretch when other DDs bring additional factors to the table.
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08-18-2012, 07:35 AMUrteilPraise the lord.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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08-18-2012, 07:53 AMRezeak
@30 secs = 1st Souleater
@7mins = 2nd Souleater
@13mins and 30 sec = 3rd Souleater
@20mins = 4th Souleater
@26 mins amd 30 secs = 5th Souleater
ur 12 fights took place 10:34-11:02 = 28 mins
28mins > 26 and 30 secs
soooooo
So you bad at legion?Quote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
As for attack this is what it I've seen....
I have seen 90 ukon avg dmg per hit excluding SE hits and crits it hits for less than a 95 ragna DRK w/ the same buff which mathematically it shouldn't (it should do more w/ aftermath) if attack didn't matter.
Also I once used carbonara over red curry and my WS dmg dropped a noticeable amount on it's avg (about 400 odd) showing to me that even w/ LR Berserk Endark Chaos and Minuet X 2 i can still notice a difference of 90ish attack (and 4 STR)
Either way lets just say this ...
If infact Acc and attack is cappable w/ buffs then you could do this....
DRK/SAM and 5 hit w/ Ragnarok when embrava is up and increase it's WS DMG by +20%ish meaning ahead of WAR on WS DMG (and it would still have more acc and attack than WAR) but because it does matter it's just not true.
With the correct merits you can get 5 SE off in 20 mins (thats 5/5 SE recast and LR effect)
Even then you ignore it in ur calculations even at 1 per wave it adds 300+ avgerage to you WS
Also i love how
143 base DMG + 180str at 100% STR Weapon DMG = 300
(possible to have more)
Then when i look at your gear since ur calculation in belt oglers and gorget into dmg you have 71+103 STR = 174*0.6 = 104
104+260 = 260 base dmg maybe you accounting for fSTR but your not doing the same for DRK
apart from that i know you are very very detailed w/ the maths you use for WAR you missing ALOT out when you consider DRK and ofc you push WAR ahead cause of this.at 1.7 pdif
323*0.94*5*1.7*1.07 = 2855
then +300 avg from SE = 3155 (that's considering 1 SE per wave)
then 20% Da
0.2*0.94*1.7*1.07*323*2 = 221
So 3355 for resolution
You say Moonshade gives +8% crit when 100-200 tp is a 15% crit inc so
15*0.25 = 3.75
So from ur set 11(crit gear)+4(moon)+20(blood)+5(merits)+5(base)+20(ukko) = 65-70% varing on mobs AGI
ofc your 8 could be from tp overflow and we could go that direction just remember Resolution DMG increase about 4% for every 25 tp over you are.
For 8 u'd be WSing at 125 tp at least so ur losing 1 hit at least there.
@90% crit @ 1.7 ur avg cratio is
.1*1.7 + .9*2.7*1.22
0.17+2.96 = 3.13 (overall cratio for 90% crit rate)
260*3.13*3.2*1.1 = 2864
and +24% DA rate
0.24*260*3.13*1.1*2 = 429
So 3293 for Ukko @ 90% crit rate
0.25*1.7 + 0.75*2.7*1.22
0.43 + 2.47 = 2.9
260*2.9*3.2*1.1 = 2654
0.24*260*2.9*1.1*2 = 398
So 3052 for ukkos @ 75% crit rate
Fighters rolls closes the gap by about 100 dmg for every 10% DA
So yea it's not the resolution destroyer ya claim it to be
Hidden cause it's too long :(
Anyway i'll leave it there
As for white DMG DRK has 5% Quad + 2% triple + 16% Da before WAR sub It can have more but you kinda need the stp to hold the 6 hit
Then 99 ragna has +14% and occsonally does X2.5 dmg (not sure on rate tho i have read it's @13% and it only can proc on first hit if ya DA TA or QA)
Honestly i'm kinda done here for a few reasons best couple is you really can't grasp the concept of using SE when it's up and locking it w/ lee way for 30 sec for each SE (30 secs is alot)
Thing is this is what ur really saying
We can kill all 12 mobs in 27 mins and well even tho we have time to kill one more ... nahh we suck to fight after 27 mins cause u could use a 5th souleater..
Or if ya at 25 mins w/ the 12th mob up you shouldn't wait 30 secs for recast to make the fight easier cause you suck to make the most of the 30 mins given.... plz
Then this....
Fact is if your want to kill 12 mobs everytime you won't have pd up full time so you need to be able to kill mobs w/out it using shock squall order and what not.Quote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
Either way in most halls we use prolly 2 and sometimes 1 PD a wave so we only need 6-8 SMNs a run -
08-18-2012, 09:53 AMwish12ozI specifically said that was a bad run, and that we messed up and had to do rolls in the middle of the second wave. I bet you wish you could say you messed up, only had 11 people and cleared 12 mobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
What you fail to comprehend is the basic strategy of using DRKs. With 4 DRKs, the idea is to have 2 of them souleater the hardest mob, which you pull first to alleviate strain on the kiter, and 1 on each of the other 2 mobs every wave. This way your WHM doesnt want to kill them self dealing with 4 SE's on a single mob repeatedly, and it spreads the damage out more so you dont lose SE time waiting for PD to wear so you can lock your buffs. This is the strategy for using lots of DRKs.
It looks like this: Pull first mob in a wave: 2 DRKs SE, mob dies in 1~ min (1 min since SE was used), then you spend 1 minute getting a new SMN, waiting for PD to wear, locking buffs, then getting a new PD, then running to the next mob (2 min since SE was used at this point), kill second mob, this takes 1 minute (3 min since SE was used) spend 1 min getting new smn/waiting on PD/locking buffs/getting new PD/running to the mob 3, this lasts 1 minute, (4 minutes since SE was used). Kill last mob of the wave, takes 1 minute (5 minutes since SE was used)
As you can see, each wave of fighting mobs lasts 5~ minutes. which means when you're done fighting the wave, the first 2 DRKs SE's are up. At this point you redo some buffs waiting for wave 2 to spawn, then repeat the process. Unless you want to use SE in the middle of getting buffs, then lock it so your timer is up sooner, you'll only be able to actually do 1 SE per wave. And since the strategy is to vary SE's on different mobs, this is pointless, because eventually you will have people SEing mobs when they shouldnt. Like lets say for instance you use SE as soon as its up during the buffing waiting for wave 2. Ok, 2 DRKs now have SE for the first mob, the third DRK who SE's the second mob every wave has SE up for the first mob too, so he uses it to maximize the amount of times you can use it, and now you have 3 DRKs SEing 1 mob, mob dies in 30~ seconds, and half your SE time is spent waiting for PD to wear so you can lock buffs. And now the 4th DRK SE's the second mob of the wave, and then no one has SE up for the third mob of the second wave, and all 4 DRKs SE the first mob of the third wave. Do you see why this is stupid and doesn't work the way you think it does now?
You get 1 SE per wave.
95 Ragnarok has higher base damage than 90 Ukon..... Empyrean level 1 aftermath is the same increase as the hidden extra damage procs on Relics also. Based simply on that, the Ragnarok should hit harder. And we're not talking about gimp level 90 Ukon vs gimp 95 Ragnarok. We're talking about 99 vs 99 witht he best gear. I'm sure your scrub WAR with the 90 Ukon had bad other gear to go with his 90 Ukon also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
So how much attack total did you have? 1200? 1300? 1400? Suck less. Legion is about completely Optimal setups or not doing very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
All SAM sub gives you in Legion in some extra STP. You lose more than you gain. And rather than talk about all this amazing stuff DRK has over WAR, how about you post the set you use, so we can compare it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Which isn't short enough to be able to do SE twice in 1 wave of mobs unless youre bad/mess up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
180*.85=153Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
143+153=296
How much are you adding for fSTR? Everything I ever saw for Resolution puts the damage right around 300. How about you post the gear set you use and I will tell you the exact number.
The 270 is based on the gear I use for my 99 Ukon in Legion, and yes, it adds some fSTR. If I knew exactly what DRKs use I could give you a better number, but as far as I've seen, 300 is correct. Post your gear set, and base STR, and I'll determine what it should be, k?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
I am missing a lot for DRK, which is why I've asked repeatedly for gear sets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
This is just all kinds of wrong. Phorcys body is only counted on the first hit of a WS, and I'm not even going to pretend I understand how you're counting DA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Im counting TP overflow to put you at 125~ TP average for every WS, which is correct for WARs, and moonshade adding an extra 25 TP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
According to the DEVs, at 100 TP Ukkos is 20% crit rate, at 200 TP it's 35% crit rate.
35-20=15
15/2=7.5
7.5+20=27.5
so 27.5 is what Im really saying crit rate from TP is, I just used 28 cause it looks better. But again, dDEX adds at least 3 crit rate to Ukkos, and I only gave it 2. So as you can see, I round up and down to make nicer numbers, like the 75% base crit rate, it should actually be a bit more.
This isn't correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
If you want absolutes,
TP is going to be at least 27
Rancorus mantle is 5
AF3+2 mask is 3
Claymore grip is 3
base is 5
merits 5
bloodrage 20.
Bare minimum is 73.
And thats only if mobs have like 145 AGL.
Saying 75% crit rate is actually giving it less credit than it's actually worth. I was only using 75 because it's a nicer number to work with than 78 or 79, which is what I should be using. But I'm trying to tone Ukkos damage down a bit since I dont know exactly what Resolution WS sets are for Legion. How about you tell me, and then I will do exact math.
this is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
I'm not even going to try and understand thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Again, not going to pretend I understand I under how you're counting DA. But Ukkos is not a 1 hit WS, and it kinda looks like you're only counting DA once, when it should be twice, and you're also forgetting WAR's roll from the COR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Capped dDEX Ukkos is much higher than Resolution in legion, sorry to disappoint you, but you should recheck your math, I know it's wrong because your answers look nothing like mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
You 7 hit Ragnarok as far as I'm aware, and you also cant use Mala in Legion as far as I'm aware, and I dunno where you get Triple attack from. How about you post your gear set.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
SE duration is shorter than PD, you can't lock PD because PD doesn't overwrite PD, you have to let it wear off before you lock. I.E. you cannot lock SE and save it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
At that point pretty much all your buffs are down, you have no PDs, and you need to wait 1-2 minutes for the next wave to spawn, which means you're done. And again, only 2 DRKs would get that SE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
You right dawg, our 12 man Legions with 12 kills is pathetic, if only we were as good as your LS. What does your LS accomplish again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Only 6-8 SMNs? My group brings 5 and just hopes our CORs reset them. We really only 2 mobs without PD. And we always be sure to know which we're doing PDless, so we can get the end of one of our PDs at the beginning of the fight. We generally pick the squishiest target and pair it with the second squishiest right before, so we have PD for every mob. With our 12 kills and 5 SMNs. If it doesnt work out we just ditch the chamber, no big loss. Mul has the good drops anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
And seriously, you going with 36? You must be to bring that many SMNs.
3 is all you need to full time Blood rage, but it's a waste unless pretty much everyone is using Crit WS's. So optimal setup would be 4x WAR 1xDRK (for chaos roll) for the melee party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taint2
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08-18-2012, 01:27 PMRezeakThats all fine as well but you not doing the same for DRK which agian is what you need to be doing to prove WAR > DRKQuote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
I have 109+77 STR in gear = 186
186 + 143 = 329 also it possible to have more STR than what i use it's not hard lol
Difference between 95 Rag and 90 ukon is 2 base dmg and gear shouldn't matter (even tho they are geared well) so w/ All attack buff ukon should hit harder on none crits and none SE hits (ukkos aftermath is stronger than relic bonus to hit even at lvl 1)
Phorcys i'm sure apply to the entire WS but if it does work like gorgets then it applys to all of resolution since that's how the WS works.
btw i accounted for both hits in you notice the X2 at the end and i already said war roll gives +100 DMG more to ukkos for every 10% it adds as an estimate.
as for the nos i gave
.1*1.7 + .9*2.7*1.22
0.17+2.96(this is whats ABOVE) = 3.13 (overall cratio for 90% crit rate)
Or a better way to say it your Average cratio is 3.13
260(base dmg)*3.13*3.2(2.2ftp+1.0ftp)*1.1(Ws bonus) = 2864 (before DA)
then for da you remove the ftp mod and x2 xDa%
It's a much simpler way to calculate WS DMG since you can ater it quickly since each part is defined once.
3293 is what i got for 90% c/rate ukkos
and 3355 is what i got for resolution using 1 SE per wave
All the data i used was from your gear sets from FFXIah
So after fighters roll yea it would be stronger thing is you claiming your stacking near 150 dex and 206 str as well as gearing gorget+belt+oglers
we clear 12 w/ 18 and don't need to rely on wildcard /shrug not 100% of the time ofc btw
As for gear all my gears sets and working more stuff out nahhhh i wasted enough time on here alot is on FFXIah + i have like 3-5 different Tp sets and alot of varying gear and since you really arn't trying to discuss the stuff i post and rather get made and call me dumb so yea i'd rather play FFXI on FFXI than on a calc w/ you.
what have i done /shrug prolly all the same crap you've done a million times FFXI is easy and there no content that is impossible with decent groups and yea done legion and killed 9-13 on most run it's not that big of a deal the hardest part of legion is organization tho the final chamber is tough.
Edit: btw all i wanted to show was DRK is on the same level as WAR instead of the claim you making where WAR > DRK clearly cause you did the math yet... when it came down to it you havn't even worked out how my STR DRK has in WS before you made those claims soooo yea you were clearly saying WAR > DRK cause i said so before this.
Lets not get into error bars and crap since you also need to prove WAR is better by more than the margin of error the formulas that we have derivied at the end of the day your hours of work away from proving anything imo. -
08-18-2012, 06:07 PMwish12ozWSC modifiers at 99 are multiplied by .85 than whatever for WSC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
A 100% STR WS, with 186 STR and a 143 damage weapon is
(186*.85)+143
which is 158+143, or 301.
About the DRK fTP per hit thing, I was using your .94/hit number. I actually would of put it higher, because I assume moonshade goes in the WS set, but I dont really know, the last time I saw a set claiming to be the best, moonshade wasnt in it.
Whats the proc rate and damage multiplier on 99 Ragnarok again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Conclusive testing shows its first hit only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
There's no needs for estimates or guessing, you can just convert extra attacks to fTP and get solid numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Like if we look at Ukkos Fury, 3 fTP, 2 for the first hit, 1 for each additional, 2 hits base. With 24% DA, this changes the fTP to 3.48, since the first 2 hits of any WS can get the extra attacks added onto them, get it? This is the proper way to account for DA/TA/etc in WS's.
If we look at Ukkos numbers.
Base crit rate Ukkos
(((270*2.2)*1.1)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))+((270*1.48)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))
2602
Then add 10% DA.
(((270*2.2)*1.1)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))+((270*1.68)*((2.7*.75)*1.22)+(1.7*.25))
2736 is the new average, which is 134 damage. You can't just "guess" 10% DA gives some random value, and hope its right.
Thats nice and all, but unfortunately, it's wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
You should of gotten 3122.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
How much HP do you have? 1500~? so an extra 150 damage/hit if youre capped, resolution is 5 hits, so an extra 750 damage when SE is up, and since it's up on one out of 3 mobs, we can take 33% of 750 and add it to Resolutions WS numbers and be pretty close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
Resolution
(((300*.94)*1.07)*1.7)+(300*4.16)*1.7)
2634+(750*.33)
2881 Average Counting SE.
Again, your numbers are way off.
And which of the 30 item sets for WAR on my FFXIAH page did you look at to determine my Legion WS set? I only ask because my Legion WS set isn't posted there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/19...up/71/#1982332
But if you read this post, you will know what to do.
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/251374
You use this set with Heca hands+1, since you will always have more than base crit rate, and you would use Thunder belt and Ogiers pants since you need the ACC, and you would not switch on Mekira hat+1 ever since you need the ACC on the AF3+2 mask.
Speaking of sets, when will you tell me yours so I can tell you more precisely what your Resolution average is?
Not at all. Im saying I gear 200 STR (103 base, 68 gear, 7 hasso, 15 minuets, 7 food), 10% WSD, 11% Crit, 24% DA, and thunder gorget/belt with capped acc/att.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
(200*.85)*.60=102
Ukonvasara 99 is 156 base Damage, which gives it a weapon rank of 17, and means it's fSTR cap is 25.
If we figure Legion mobs have 130 ish VIT, this leaves me with 70~ STR to tally into fSTR, 70/4=17
102+156+17=275
So you're totally right, I should be using 275, instead of just guessing it to be 270 because I wanted to gimp it a little bit. I guess I should count boost STR also, and lower what the mobs VIT could potentially be too. Then I could cap my fSTR and be even better off. Lets go with that number. My new damage for all Ukko's calculations is going to be 295 instead of 270.
Originally I typed something mean here, but I deleted it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
You don't even know how to count WSC or fSTR, yet you accuse me of not knowing stuff? Why don't you tell me your gear set?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
I am hours away from proving to you that TEAMwar is better than TEAMdrk, but I would be a lot closer if you provided anything beyond random numbers and complaints that I was trying to make Ukko's seem better than it was, when I've been doing the exact opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
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08-18-2012, 08:43 PMwish12oz
Note to self: Restraint
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08-19-2012, 06:07 AMHelel
Considering RNG with annihilator/armageddon + adaman bullet completely destroys both of these jobs DD-wise, I'm not sure why we need 7-8 pages arguing which job is best when neither are. It was already easy enough to out-parse them before the update; now with the ranged attack delay reduction it's stupidly easy. This is assuming capped haste with embrava, 4x minuet, chaos, etc.