More nerfs for War & Ukkos.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

What's better is adjusting the one WS that is broken and not breaking everyone else WS. Outside content was easy enough with Ukko spam, but you wanted to make it easier? Sure, why not...

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All of the content is a joke anyway, so what does it matter if it gets easier? If existing paths of VW get harder, and the drop rate is still piss poor, they'll just alienate the player base even more (and don't even get me started with not allowing people to add rare/ex items like BODIES they already have to an alliance loot pool). Besides, they openly admitted to gimping their own content. Their M.O. has always been to let the hardcore player base work harder for things first. Then they'll put on their best Trollfaces and gimp it so it becomes more accessible to the casual, and finally, to the stooges of the world.

All I see occurring is the downgrade of one of the, if not most, popular jobs in the game. Bottom line is that if they wanted to fix it, the most recent rounds of voidwatch should have been akin to what AV was at 75. I was in the most fail Kaggen group today. I was the only Ukon WAR, everyone died MULTIPLE times, but through the magic of zombieing, we still won. Yes, more WARs would have sealed the deal and made it far less annoying, but it was still plenty beatable without.

No more room in this discussion for logic it seems so I'll be heading out then. Good luck in the new year.

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Originally Posted by Brolic

how are the jp's reacting to this?

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hi I'm a JP player.

Just thought I should let you guys know what the JPs reactions are.

Reaction is big, both in official forum and in game, most saying they shouldn't go ahead with this.

Points that both Pro and Anti are making in JP forum are basically the same as in this NA forum.

I picked some of the main points made in JP forums. I personally don't want this to happen so I am biased but anyways.

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Anti Nerf
- Don't ignore emotional aspects, such as motivation and passion to future gameplay (with number of players already declining, it does nothing but accelelate it, thus inappropriate)

- Allowing this can create further nerfing, creating the "chain of nerf" (Ochain, WF, some of new WS such as Shoha and Resolution have been pointed out, and even Cure V)

- Dev.Team once announced that they are not going to nerf empy weapons (some people actually made these weapons after this announcement, thus it is a breach of contract, plus you need to buy Abyssea pack to make empy)

- Those who will be affected does not include only owners of these weapons, but include owners of WoE weapons, also those who are in the process of making them, and those who is planning to make them; thus impact will be huge.

- Don't forget about PUP

Pro Nerf

- Its more important to maintain game balance (it was too powerul in the first place, and making other empy powerful will only create power-inflation, thus this nerf is sound)

- Other jobs will be able participate in end-contents more freely

- You'll still have new WS, AM, still powerful job-abilities

- This is FF11, live with it. (or I don't care coz it doesn't affect me )

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I hope Dev Team will take our opinions into consideration and make a good VUs that everyone can look forward to.

Thanks for your attention, and many apologies for my poor English ><

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! :D

Your English is very good Mayaramen! Thank you for the insight.

Thank you Mayaramen. It's very nice when bi-lingual players can help the JP and English forums communicate on important topics like this.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

80% crit at 300 TP is working as intended? Do you honestly and truly believe that?

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YES.

Honestly it would of been nice if it was just straight 100% crit rate at 100 TP. But seriously, what the heck is your problem with just increasing other jobs weapon skill damage to match Ukkos? We're level 99 now, mobs have 6x the HP they had at 75, why the hell do you want to do the same WS damage you did at 75? You sound like you're just angry you couldn't get an Ukon.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

YES.

Honestly it would of been nice if it was just straight 100% crit rate at 100 TP. But seriously, what the heck is your problem with just increasing other jobs weapon skill damage to match Ukkos? We're level 99 now, mobs have 6x the HP they had at 75, why the hell do you want to do the same WS damage you did at 75? You sound like you're just angry you couldn't get an Ukon.

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If they buffed other weapons' skills to match Ukko's, they'd have to buff mobs' HP, and then we'd more than likely get a snowballing effect like WoW is currently desperately trying to remedy where the numbers just get needlessly bigger.

1k WS on Kirin's 50,000 HP at level 75, or 4k WS on Kaggen's 200,000 HP at level 99? Same fuckin' thing just bigger numbers.

I may be misunderstanding you but I think you just argued against yourself.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I may be misunderstanding you but I think you just argued against yourself.

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Probably misunderstanding then. Because I'm still saying that other WS shouldn't be BUFFED to match ukko's, that would be stupid. Bringing Ukko's down a notch or two is the sane choice, and that's what they're doing!

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

YES.

Honestly it would of been nice if it was just straight 100% crit rate at 100 TP. But seriously, what the heck is your problem with just increasing other jobs weapon skill damage to match Ukkos? We're level 99 now, mobs have 6x the HP they had at 75, why the hell do you want to do the same WS damage you did at 75? You sound like you're just angry you couldn't get an Ukon.

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We have been waiting a year for buffs to other crit weapon skills, and jobs without crit ws like DRK to get one. Why hasn't SE fixed this without nerfing Ukko's? No one knows, it would be nice to have a real interview with the developers. As for WARs continually bashing others for not getting a Ukon, there are 20 jobs in the game. Some of us dont' like WAR. I have farmed the glavoid path for others, I could do it myself if I wanted. If SE is incapable of balancing jobs they shouldn't have added so many. And no, I understand every job can't parse exactly the same. Ukon WAR was a huge outlier though, and made to large an imbalance.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

Probably misunderstanding then. Because I'm still saying that other WS shouldn't be BUFFED to match ukko's, that would be stupid. Bringing Ukko's down a notch or two is the sane choice, and that's what they're doing!

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When you say 1k to a 50k HP mob is the same at 4k to a 200k hp mob that seems like you are arguing that 4-5k WSs would be fine because a 1.5-2k WS on Kirin really wasn't rare at all once people were loaded up with gear at 75.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

When you say 1k to a 50k HP mob is the same at 4k to a 200k hp mob that seems like you are arguing that 4-5k WSs would be fine because a 1.5-2k WS on Kirin really wasn't rare at all once people were loaded up with gear at 75.

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No, I'm saying it'd be too much damage because it'd be the same net result. Do you want the content to stay the same difficulty level as we advance? Or do you want the fights to be the same shit just with bigger numbers, but the same end result?

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

YES.

Honestly it would of been nice if it was just straight 100% crit rate at 100 TP. But seriously, what the heck is your problem with just increasing other jobs weapon skill damage to match Ukkos? We're level 99 now, mobs have 6x the HP they had at 75, why the hell do you want to do the same WS damage you did at 75? You sound like you're just angry you couldn't get an Ukon.

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My problem with increasing other jobs WS to match Ukko's, hmm... well for starters it's a great axe. How do you adjust a WS for 1h jobs to match a WS from a 2h job? Next question, if the purpose is to make them level then why not just nerf the one that is grossly overpowered?

Why would you make more work for yourself? On a smaller scale, it's like when you have two used cartons of eggs in the fridge. One carton has 1 egg and the other has 20. Why would you take the extra, unnecessary time to move the 20 eggs instead of just the 1? Common sense isn't so common these days.

I don't have an Ukon because my legs are too short for me to step up onto the bandwagon.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

My problem with increasing other jobs WS to match Ukko's, hmm... well for starters it's a great axe. How do you adjust a WS for 1h jobs to match a WS from a 2h job? Next question, if the purpose is to make them level then why not just nerf the one that is grossly overpowered?

Why would you make more work for yourself? On a smaller scale, it's like when you have two used cartons of eggs in the fridge. One carton has 1 egg and the other has 20. Why would you take the extra, unnecessary time to move the 20 eggs instead of just the 1? Common sense isn't so common these days.

I don't have an Ukon because my legs are too short for me to step up onto the bandwagon.

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That's not really a very an apt analogy but even in that case. If you had that extra egg from the carton do you throw it out or keep it? Also the level was just raised in game and a whole new host of WSs were added so SE had an incredibly easy way to add weaponskills that were on par with Ukko's or better being that every single received a new one this patch. This nerf was completely unneeded and everyone with half a brain should be able to see it.

Hell it's the level 99 WSs too! why aren't shouldn't they be awesome? Oh right because the idiots making development decisions right now want "balance" which translates to no real advancement in power.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

No, I'm saying it'd be too much damage because it'd be the same net result. Do you want the content to stay the same difficulty level as we advance? Or do you want the fights to be the same shit just with bigger numbers, but the same end result?

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That's generally how things work out. Content difficulty increase relative to player power. I certainly wouldn't expect to be made to feel less powerful at 99 than I did at 75.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

That's generally how things work out. Content difficulty increase relative to player power. I certainly wouldn't expect to be made to feel less powerful at 99 than I did at 75.

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Well then would you rather Kaggen (to carry on the perennial example, because it's the only Voidwatch I know any actual numbers on and WAS probably the highest HP/def/eva mob at 95...) have 400,000 HP instead of 200,000? Imagine having to chew through Kaggen's current HP just for the Death Prophet phase alone...

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Originally Posted by Orson

That's not really a very an apt analogy but even in that case. If you had that extra egg from the carton do you throw it out or keep it? Also the level was just raised in game and a whole new host of WSs were added so SE had an incredibly easy way to add weaponskills that were on par with Ukko's or better being that every single received a new one this patch. This nerf was completely unneeded and everyone with half a brain should be able to see it.

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The analogy serves it's purpose if you actually understand the point of it. It is less work to fix one thing than to fix twenty other things. It makes more sense to re-adjust something that is newly added rather than tinkering with shit that has been around for years.

Gaining power is somewhat limited by the previous model of the game. I'm not making excuses for the devs, but when you wire in game mechanics with the assumption that there will be no further expansions, there will be some growing pains if and when you do decide to expand.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

Well then would you rather Kaggen (to carry on the perennial example, because it's the only Voidwatch I know any actual numbers on and WAS probably the highest HP/def/eva mob at 95...) have 400,000 HP instead of 200,000? Imagine having to chew through Kaggen's current HP just for the Death Prophet phase alone...

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What does that have to do with what we are talking about? I said content difficulty should increase parallel to player strength. If a WS hits a big number and could do 2% of Kirins HP at 75 then why is a WS doing 2% of Kaggens HP at 99 such an issue for you? 1000 damage to a 50k hp mob at 75 is relatively the same idea as 4000 damage to a 200k hp mob at 99.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

The analogy serves it's purpose if you actually understand the point of it. It is less work to fix one thing than to fix twenty other things. It makes more sense to re-adjust something that is newly added rather than tinkering with shit that has been around for years.

Gaining power is somewhat limited by the previous model of the game. I'm not making excuses for the devs, but when you wire in game mechanics with the assumption that there will be no further expansions, there will be some growing pains if and when you do decide to expand.

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Of course its easier to fix 1 thing. If they were paying me to play this game, that would be fine. Currently, I pay them though, so they need to fix 20 things. Actually, it would be easier for them to do nothing at all. But then again.... we pay them to fix....no, we pay them to improve things. Last I checked the subscription price hadn't gone down in order to compensate for crappy patchwork, so I will continue to expect progression, and development, not nerfs and stagnation.

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Of course its easier to fix 1 thing. If they were paying me to play this game, that would be fine. Currently, I pay them though, so they need to fix 20 things.

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Two points:

1) The other 20 things aren't broken.

2) Your subscription fee allows you to access content whenever you want to, not design it the way you'd like to.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

Two points:

1) The other 20 things aren't broken.

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So all the other jobs in the game are perfect? It was just war messing everything up? ok.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

2) Your subscription fee allows you to access content whenever you want to, not design it the way you'd like to.

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Nope, I don't design it. I pay them too. They stop designing stuff, I stop paying. That's how subscriptions work.

I don't understand how people can be for this nerf. Warrior was doing too much damage? Well at least it can fall back on it's other strengths... oh wait, there aren't any. If everyone had an Ukko's strength WS, then Warrior would be cast aside as every other job has more to offer than just DD.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

So all the other jobs in the game are perfect? It was just war messing everything up? ok.

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Nobody suggested that the other jobs are perfect, but they really aren't broken. Sure they could all use adjustments, but if you took a poll I bet probably 9/10 people don't care about their WS. A lonely warrior weeps in the corner despite still being at the top parse.

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They stop designing stuff, I stop paying. That's how subscriptions work.

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Unfortunately for you(fortunately for the rest of us), that doesn't mean that they start implementing changes you want if you quit. You should give it a try though. I'll let you know how it turns out...

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Originally Posted by Scribble

Nobody suggested that the other jobs are perfect, but they really aren't broken. Sure they could all use adjustments, but if you took a poll I bet probably 9/10 people don't care about their WS. A lonely warrior weeps in the corner despite still being at the top parse.

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Yeah, I bet if you asked those same 10 people, 10/10 were even less concerned about warriors ws. So whats the point of the nerf again? I see 1,000 different job threads about how to buff / fix each job. Can you find the one where someone suggested nerfing ukkon to make pup perform better? how about the one where the problem with enfeebling was that ukkon needs to be weaker? none? hmmm.... so basically rather than fix that stuff, their gonna make a few wars mad, and fix nothing. great logic.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

Unfortunately for you(fortunately for the rest of us), that doesn't mean that they start implementing changes you want if you quit. You should give it a try though. I'll let you know how it turns out...

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I see your purposely missing the point. When I say "They stop designing stuff, I stop paying." I mean that they have to continue to develop or players will eventually finish. Nerfing a job has never once caused an increase in subscriptions. If they followed your rationale, none of the content in discussion would exist. Everyone would have quit years and years ago, because there wouldn't be 20 jobs or an ukkon to fix/nerf in the first place. But no. They do get paid to provide progression, and development in the game, and they will continue to because making new rewards is what keeps people playing.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

What does that have to do with what we are talking about? I said content difficulty should increase parallel to player strength. If a WS hits a big number and could do 2% of Kirins HP at 75 then why is a WS doing 2% of Kaggens HP at 99 such an issue for you? 1000 damage to a 50k hp mob at 75 is relatively the same idea as 4000 damage to a 200k hp mob at 99.

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Because then it feels like the fight difficulty is about the same, right down to the NM dying at (relatively) the same rate. How does that make you feel more powerful? Oh boy, bigger number... same relative death rate.

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Originally Posted by Linku

I don't understand how people can be for this nerf. Warrior was doing too much damage? Well at least it can fall back on it's other strengths... oh wait, there aren't any. If everyone had an Ukko's strength WS, then Warrior would be cast aside as every other job has more to offer than just DD.

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Yeah all Warrior does is damage, that doesn't mean it should be able to double other jobs' peak WS numbers.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

Because then it feels like the fight difficulty is about the same, right down to the NM dying at (relatively) the same rate. How does that make you feel more powerful? Oh boy, bigger number... same relative death rate.

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Well..... he did kill a monster that would eat a 75 player in 1-2 hits for starters.....

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

Yeah all Warrior does is damage, that doesn't mean it should be able to double other jobs' peak WS numbers.

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It can't double most jobs numbers. The jobs that it can double have been in need of buffs for a while. Only the trolls prefer nerfing another jobs over fixing their own job.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Can you find the one where someone suggested nerfing ukkon to make pup perform better?

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This nerf isn't supposed to increase another jobs performance. It is supposed to reduce warriors performance because it's clearly too high and that is a problem. SE didn't look at other jobs and say "They can't keep up with warrior, lets nerf warrior". They looked at warrior and said "That worked in abyssea when it didn't matter because everyone was on godmode, but we can't allow it outside for encounters that are supposed to be challenging".

If they buffed all jobs to the level of damage output that an Ukon warrior is capable of then they might as well make XI a single player MMO because 90% of the content would be soloable.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

It can't double most jobs numbers. The jobs that it can double have been in need of buffs for a while. Only the trolls prefer nerfing another jobs over fixing their own job.

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It did indeed double most jobs' numbers. 5-6k high/peak Ukko's vs most other jobs doing 2-3k on good hits.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

This nerf isn't supposed to increase another jobs performance. It is supposed to reduce warriors performance because it's clearly too high and that is a problem. SE didn't look at other jobs and say "They can't keep up with warrior, lets nerf warrior". They looked at warrior and said "That worked in abyssea when it didn't matter because everyone was on godmode, but we can't allow it outside for encounters that are supposed to be challenging".

If they buffed all jobs to the level of damage output that an Ukon warrior is capable of then they might as well make XI a single player MMO because 90% of the content would be soloable.

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That makes absolutely no sense what so ever. If they didn't look at other jobs then how could they possibly know that WAR was too powerful.

P.S. Even with ukko's I can't solo even a decent challenge with any kind of consistency without dying....WAR is 100% dependent on WHM support. Ironically I can solo with WHM far better than with WAR. I guess they should nerf Hexa cause WHM is too powerful.

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Originally Posted by Chaz

That makes absolutely no sense what so ever. If they didn't look at other jobs then how could they possibly know that WAR was too powerful.

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It doesn't make sense because no one can seem to figure out that we are talking about a WS that is exclusive to warrior. This isn't about balancing jobs against each other, it's about balancing a job against the content.

Ukko's is too powerful and needed to be scaled back. I guess it's fair to be upset that it wasn't adjusted earlier, but like I said before it wouldn't have mattered much during the peak of abyssea. People also should have seen it coming.

If a day comes where your WHM is allowed to melee endgame content doing 6k HS then yes, you should expect a nerf.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

It doesn't make sense because no one can seem to figure out that we are talking about a WS that is exclusive to warrior. This isn't about balancing jobs against each other, it's about balancing a job against the content.

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Right, and instead of balancing the content, they messed with a weapon that people worked hard to get. They didn't make the content any more difficult. If they took war completely out of the game, the content would still be beat in virtually no time. There is a problem with the content. Not the job. They did not create content appropriate for level 99 players and are taking the easy rout of nerfing the jobs instead of fixing the bigger picture. The problem is, this doesn't fix anything. They could have built mobs with higher HP, or damage caps, or JA that make them impossible to kill without a dedicated tank, but that requires work and creativity, so they took the easy route, and that means bad things for everyone else. Not just wars.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

It did indeed double most jobs' numbers. 5-6k high/peak Ukko's vs most other jobs doing 2-3k on good hits.

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actually at the moment my war is pretty much on par with a equally geared sam spamming shoda

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Originally Posted by Brolic

actually at the moment my war is pretty much on par with a equally geared sam spamming shoda

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And that's the thing. If they make war weak, sam will replace it, if they make sam weak, monk will replace it..... right on down the line until everyone sucks. They need to fix the content. Not nerf the jobs that are good. they would have to seriously nerf the shit out of every job to make any serious dent in peoples abilities to defeat current content. That is retarded.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

And that's the thing. If they make war weak, sam will replace it, if they make sam weak, monk will replace it..... right on down the line until everyone sucks. They need to fix the content. Not nerf the jobs that are good. they would have to seriously nerf the shit out of every job to make any serious dent in peoples abilities to defeat current content. That is retarded.

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FINALLY! Just when I was about to give up--Validation!!!!

So what should they do then to "balance the content" which will magically make all jobs equally effective against it?

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

So what should they do then to "balance the content" which will magically make all jobs equally effective against it?

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Nope, that's a two-part process. Balancing jobs against content isn't the same as balancing jobs against other jobs. Also, you seem to forget that every job doesn't need to massive damage to be useful. There's a few heavy DD's in the game, so I don't see why people think every job deserves to be equal with WAR on damage. Buff the heavy DD's and make the other jobs more useful for other things. That's how the game the game should be. It's a ridiculous idea to have a job like THF be on equal standing with a heavy DD.

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Originally Posted by Brolic

actually at the moment my war is pretty much on par with a equally geared sam spamming shoda

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really? My irl friend is a sam nut (and a pretty good player) and he still gets beat by me by a fairly solid margin, even with 5/5 shoda.

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Originally Posted by Dart

really? My irl friend is a sam nut (and a pretty good player) and he still gets beat by me by a fairly solid margin, even with 5/5 shoda.

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in what abyssea or vw?

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

It's a ridiculous idea to have a job like THF be on equal standing with a heavy DD.

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I think that is the whole problem for the majority of the player base who complains. I don't know why, but for some odd reason(Abyssea) these players who complain think that every job who isnt a mage should be considered a DD and be on par with all DD on all content. I am not saying that THF/DNC/DRG/DRK/MNK/NIN cant or should not be able to DD becuase they can, but no one is willing to stop and think about the fact that these jobs have individual roles to play and its not to be the heavy hitting DD that WAR and SAM are.

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Originally Posted by Riaurio

I think that is the whole problem for the majority of the player base who complains. I don't know why, but for some odd reason(Abyssea) these players who complain think that every job who isnt a mage should be considered a DD and be on par with all DD on all content. I am not saying that THF/DNC/DRG/DRK/MNK/NIN cant or should not be able to DD becuase they can, but no one is willing to stop and think about the fact that these jobs have individual roles to play and its not to be the heavy hitting DD that WAR and SAM are.

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I can't speak on all of those jobs. Some of them are doing quite well actually, but in many cases, the other things that they are supposed to bring to the table besides damage are not very good / desired traits. Some of those jobs in events are like using a butter knife for a screw driver. If you have a couple things you need done, they will work, but when you have a big job to do, you need the right tool. The problem is that if you have 1 white mage in your group, then there is very little left for those jobs to do besides Kill Stuff. So if they want to be desired like war, they need to perform at least close to war in the damage department. The other traits they offer unfortunately don't make or break the fight in most cases.