[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

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Originally Posted by detlef

Now you're judging the player, not the gear. This is solely a gear issue. If you take a player with an axe and a shield and give that same player a greataxe instead, he will perform better. Feel free to continue defending roleplaying if you want, however. That's the only way your argument holds any water.

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My post to you had nothing to do with gear or who would perform better. It was just advice not to judge players based on your experiences with other players.

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Originally Posted by Dale

But it's not the game that punishes players for playing jobs in certain ways. Players like you do. I hate to be blunt about that, but it's just the truth. And players can simply ignore these types of players and play the game as they want. So yes, they do have free will - and can be successful in the process so long as they don't try anything absurd that goes against the intended game design.

So it's very possible to complete the content on this game using a variety of different jobs and play-styles. The fact some players can't tolerate a less efficient run and seek to exclude everyone but a select few based on this obsession to clear everything as fast as possible doesn't mean the game itself does. That's a very important distinction.

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I find it funny that you're saying Afania is the main culprit that made the shield WAR kills stuff slower.

If I play shield WAR and do yorcia delve 6 NM run, I'd finish it slower.

Even if I made everyone on the server to invite my shield WAR, it doesn't change the fact that a shield WAR kills 6 NM slower.

No matter how hard I try, I can't change the game mechanic, it_just_kills_slower.

It doesn't matter if I get invite or not, the game simply punishes anyone for playing WAR with a shield, cuz the formula determining the dmg output is lower if the player equip a shield.

So why it's player's fault that role players got punished? Obviously it's the game mechanic and the formula that's punishing anyone trying to equip a shield on their WAR.

So no, free will doesn't exist in this game. My definition of free will means "free to make choices with 0 sacrifice". In FFXI if I want to play a shield WAR, I sacrifice my time, and 5 other pt member's time with slower kill speed.

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Originally Posted by Afania

I find it funny that you're saying Afania is the main culprit that made the shield WAR kills stuff slower.

If I play shield WAR and do yorcia delve 6 NM run, I'd finish it slower.

Even if I made everyone on the server to invite my shield WAR, it doesn't change the fact that a shield WAR kills 6 NM slower.

No matter how hard I try, I can't change the game mechanic, it_just_kills_slower.

It doesn't matter if I get invite or not, the game simply punishes me if I want to play WAR with a shield, cuz the formula determining the dmg output is lower if I equip a shield.

So why it's player's fault that role players got punished?

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I didn't say you personally were the main culprit. I said players like you were. Those who are obsessed with spread sheets and dps and completing content as quickly as possible and think any job that doesn't contribute to that aim sucks and is just a leech and slows the party down.

Not all of us are care if something takes a couple more minutes to complete. We play MMORPGs to have fun and create an individualized character we enjoy playing. And players can accomplish this goal while still having success in the game. That was my point.

So again: it's not the game that punishes other players. It's players like you who for some reason expect the rest of us to play the game for the same reasons you do else you refuse to group with us. Which is your right. And to be honest I don't want to group with players with such a mentality anyway. I was just correcting you when you say it's the game that punishes players for not being as " efficient " as possible. Because it's not. The game design is solid and allows for all kinds of different play-styles to succeed.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I didn't say you personally were the main culprit. I said players like you were. Those who are obsessed with spread sheets and dps and completing content as quickly as possible and think any job that doesn't contribute to that aim sucks and is just a leech and slows the party down.

Not all of us are care if something takes a couple more minutes to complete. We play MMORPGs to have fun and create an individualized character we enjoy playing. And players can accomplish this goal while still having success in the game. That was my point.

So again: it's not the game that punishes other players. It's players like you who for some reason expect the rest of us to play the game for the same reasons you do else you refuse to group with us. Which is your right. And to be honest I don't want to group with players with such a mentality anyway. I was just correcting you when you say it's the game that punishes players for not being as efficient as possible. Because it's not. The game design is solid and allows for all kinds of different play-styles to succeed.

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I added an extra sentence from my last post. I think we have different opinion toward "free will".

If I need to sacrifice something or waste other's time because I choose to play the job in a certain way, then it's not free will.

The game allows all kinds of different playstyle, true. It also punishes the majority of the playstyle due to it's ineffectiveness.

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Originally Posted by Afania

I added an extra sentence from my last post. I think we have different opinion toward "free will".

If I need to sacrifice something or hurt the others because I choose to play the job in a certain way, then it's not free will.

The game allows all kinds of different playstyle, true. It also punishes the majority of the playstyle due to it's ineffectiveness.

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No it doesn't. If I'm attempting to kill a NM on my Red Mage for example but can't and a warrior who uses a shield comes along and helps me kill it guess what, I wasn't punished for it. In fact it helped me. The fact a warrior using a Great Axe may have helped me kill it faster doesn't mean I was punished because a warrior who used a shield helped me instead.

You have a very strange idea about what being punished is.

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Originally Posted by Dale

No it doesn't. If I'm attempting to kill a NM on my Red Mage for example but can't and a warrior who uses a shield comes along and helps me kill it guess what, I wasn't punished for it. In fact it helped me. The fact a warrior using a Great Axe may have helped me kill it faster doesn't mean I was punished because a warrior who used a shield helped me instead.

You have a very strange idea about what being punished is.

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More like you have a very strange idea about what being punished is.....

If I can do yorcia in 15~20 min with 3 proper DD, then we change job to 3 shield WAR and spend 30+ min instead, I wasted 10~15 min because we want to role play.

So what's the point to change job to a shield WAR just because we like it? We got punished by spending more time.

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Originally Posted by Afania

More like you have a very strange idea about what being punished is.....

If I can do yorcia in 15~20 min with 3 proper DD, then we change job to 3 shield WAR and spend 30+ min instead, I wasted 10~15 min because we want to role play.

So what's the point to change job to a shield WAR just because we like it? We only got punished by spending more time.

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No it's more like you do.

In your eyes unless someone helps you the fastest they are somehow punishing you. So I guess if someone gave you a lift to work they would be punishing you unless they drove you to work in a Ferrari or something. It's just ludicrous. And heaven forbid players role play on a role playing game.

Fighting a soloable NM and having a random person join in to speed things is up is just slightly different from doing a Yorcia Delve run.

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Originally Posted by detlef

Fighting a soloable NM and having a random person join in to speed things is up is just slightly different from doing a Yorcia Delve run.

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It wasn't a soloable NM in that example I gave. I needed help to defeat it. That was the whole point.

And none of my comments have been about Yorcia Deleve runs. If you don't want to take a warrior with a shield to one of your Yorcia Delve Runs then don't. But that doesn't mean you have to be annoyed by warriors who use shields or suggest they should never join any content outside of role-playing. That's what I am talking about here. So we are talking about different things.

I am pretty confident that good players could beat normal mode fights with decent gear despite playing inefficiently. It would not shock me in the least to see a bunch of WHM/NINs meleeburn every N fight and probably quite a few D ones too. Or shield WARs and bow SAM/RNGs. However, there is absolutely no incentive to shout for such a player.

There is a major lack of organizers in the NA community on Lakshmi right now, to the extent that I get people joining my shouts regularly without comments because they just have nothing else to do. It is a shouter's market, so why shout for or accept a pink THF that offhands Ridll because he wrestled it from the clutches of the mighty wyrm Fafnir? Might as well get someone else and ensure that the other 6 players in your group have a better experience as a result.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I am pretty confident that good players could beat normal mode fights with decent gear despite playing inefficiently. It would not shock me in the least to see a bunch of WHM/NINs meleeburn every N fight and probably quite a few D ones too. Or shield WARs and bow SAM/RNGs. However, there is absolutely no incentive to shout for such a player.

There is a major lack of organizers in the NA community on Lakshmi right now, to the extent that I get people joining my shouts regularly without comments because they just have nothing else to do. It is a shouter's market, so why shout for or accept a pink THF that offhands Ridll because he wrestled it from the clutches of the mighty wyrm Fafnir? Might as well get someone else and ensure that the other 6 players in your group have a better experience as a result.

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Not even normal fights to aid in your point. I've done difficult mode battlefields with a pair of dragoons before.

I think the real problem here is a lot of players are simply unable to defeat content unless under the most ideal and easiest conditions. And instead of admitting to this, they pretend they are just really good players who want to be as efficient as possible and that's why they only play with the most ideal set ups for any occasion. I could be wrong. But it's really the only explanation I can come up with that makes sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I think the real problem here is a lot of players are simply unable to defeat content unless under the most ideal and easiest conditions. And instead of admitting to this, they pretend they are just really good players who want to be as efficient as possible and that's why they only play with the most ideal set ups for any occasion. I could be wrong. But it's really the only explanation I can come up with that makes sense to me.

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It's not so much about the most ideal setup, and more about just playing like you're capable of breathing on your own. Part of that includes, but isn't limited to, gearing with some degree of knowledge of what that gear does.

Shield War will not be tanking. Thus, why are they using the shield? It adds nothing to what they bring to the table, it on my detracts from the DPS they could be offering. For what it's worth, I've done plenty of content with Drgs, Pups, Blms, Rdms, etc. Playing and gearing with a good head on your shoulders can make up for much of the difference between the job's base performance.

And Jesus @ this massive derail from just saying I'd be annoyed as the Whm if a War in my party used a shield. Pretty sure you just gotta have the last word Dale, so have fun with that. Thanks for the psychoanalysis of me and why I shouldn't be annoyed at people who waste my time.

Please, lets not lump players that make dumb choices (single handed weapon & shield war) to players that play jobs that SE has given the shaft to. They are two different things.

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Originally Posted by Olor

Please, lets not lump players that make dumb choices (single handed weapon & shield war) to players that play jobs that SE has given the shaft to. They are two different things.

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No doubt, wasn't what I meant by that. Was more eluding to how he feels that people will only run with the absolute most efficient setups. Doesn't mean you'll be able to get into pugs on those jobs, but running with a dedicated group that understands how to gear and play those jobs to their best puts you in a situation where you're plenty capable of completing a good deal of content, without anyone carrying anyone.

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Originally Posted by Dale

No it's more like you do.

In your eyes unless someone helps you the fastest they are somehow punishing you. So I guess if someone gave you a lift to work they would be punishing you unless they drove you to work in a Ferrari or something. It's just ludicrous. And heaven forbid players role play on a role playing game.

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Using a Ferrari isn't a good example at all. I don't have Ferrari, if I need to go somewhere I can't use it. So I'd just accept w/e I got.

If you're a WAR with no GA nor GA skill leveled, and all you have is one 1h weapon in your inv, then I suppose it's not a punishment.

If you have both GA and 1h weapon to choose from, and choose not to use a GA, then you're purposely choosing to do it slow and grind less stuff/hr because you want to role play.

Think of it this way, you're doing a job you enjoy and make $5/hr, v.s doing another job you don't enjoy which makes $20/hr. Why can't you do a job you enjoy and make $20/hr instead? You're being punished for doing a job you enjoy, so how is it not a punishment? You're grinding less plasm/hr because you want to role play or do something you enjoy, seems like a punishment to me.

I didn't say anything about "you can't role play", stop playing the "I want to role play in MMORPG" card. I'm talking about something completely different, which is "you make less plasm/hr and grind less stuff/hr if you want to role play".

Also stop thinking I always want the fastest setup possible, I do delve on BLU a lot, which is not an efficient DD at all. I do it to have fun, but I wouldn't pretend it's not a punishment to my pt when I play BLU. It's just that my friends/lsmate can accept it, it doesn't mean it's not a punishment.

You can accept a fun job making $5/hr is different from pretending making $5 is not a punishment when you can make $20.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Not even normal fights to aid in your point. I've done difficult mode battlefields with a pair of dragoons before.

I think the real problem here is a lot of players are simply unable to defeat content unless under the most ideal and easiest conditions. And instead of admitting to this, they pretend they are just really good players who want to be as efficient as possible and that's why they only play with the most ideal set ups for any occasion. I could be wrong. But it's really the only explanation I can come up with that makes sense to me.

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Except Byrth's example wasn't even the same thing as the shield WAR example you gave. His intention is to state that "you can have fun with different setup", which I agree, You just insisted that other players have to think the way you want them to be, which I don't agree.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Using a Ferrari isn't a good example at all. I don't have Ferrari, if I need to go somewhere I can't use it. So I'd just accept w/e I got.

If you're a WAR with no GA nor GA skill leveled, and all you have is one 1h weapon in your inv, then I suppose it's not a punishment.

If you have both GA and 1h weapon to choose from, and choose not to use a GA, then you're purposely choosing to do it slow and grind less stuff/hr because you want to role play.

Think of it this way, you're doing a job you enjoy and make $5/hr, v.s doing another job you don't enjoy which makes $20/hr. Why can't you do a job you enjoy and make $20/hr instead? You're being punished for doing a job you enjoy, so how is it not a punishment? You're grinding less plasm/hr because you want to role play or do something you enjoy, seems like a punishment to me.

I didn't say anything about "you can't role play", stop playing the "I want to role play in MMORPG" card. I'm talking about something completely different, which is "you make less plasm/hr and grind less stuff/hr if you want to role play".

Also stop thinking I always want the fastest setup possible, I do delve on BLU a lot, which is not an efficient DD at all. I do it to have fun, but I wouldn't pretend it's not a punishment to my pt when I play BLU. It's just that my friends/lsmate can accept it, it doesn't mean it's not a punishment.

You can accept a fun job making $5/hr is different from pretending making $5 is not a punishment when you can make $20.

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But it was a good example. From all you have said, unless someone helps you as efficiently and quickly as possible you view it as a punishment. And to touch on what you said, even if you had two choices for a drive to work - one in a Ferrari and another in a station wagon... it doesn't really matter. The person driving you to work in a station wagon is still doing you a favor and it's faster than walking your butt to work. So to view someone helping you as punishment because you had better choices is still extremely misguided - to use a mild term.

And if you want me to stop thinking you always want the fastest set up possible, then you should probably stop putting such an emphasis on it. All I ever read from you on these forums is spreadsheets and dps and how players should do the most damage as possible else they are punishing other players, a leech, and should be barred from all activity outside of role play. So the only one to blame for my impressions of how you think is yourself.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Except Byrth's example wasn't even the same thing as the shield WAR example you gave. His intention is to state that "you can have fun with different setup", which I agree, You just insisted that other players have to think the way you want them to be, which I don't agree.

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No I insisted that players not be annoyed by how other players choose to play. For example: if a warrior wants to use a shield or a paladin wants to use a great sword. These are not good reasons to get annoyed at someone IMHO.

You can think how ever you want. You can group with who ever you want. All I asked in this thread is that you and others not get annoyed at other players simply because they may play differently than you think they should. And that really isn't too much to ask.

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Originally Posted by Malithar

It's not so much about the most ideal setup, and more about just playing like you're capable of breathing on your own. Part of that includes, but isn't limited to, gearing with some degree of knowledge of what that gear does.

Shield War will not be tanking. Thus, why are they using the shield? It adds nothing to what they bring to the table, it on my detracts from the DPS they could be offering. For what it's worth, I've done plenty of content with Drgs, Pups, Blms, Rdms, etc. Playing and gearing with a good head on your shoulders can make up for much of the difference between the job's base performance.

And Jesus @ this massive derail from just saying I'd be annoyed as the Whm if a War in my party used a shield. Pretty sure you just gotta have the last word Dale, so have fun with that. Thanks for the psychoanalysis of me and why I shouldn't be annoyed at people who waste my time.

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I was trying to make a more general point based off what you said but not limited to your specific situation. If that makes any sense to you.

There is a lot of intolerance on MMORPGs these days toward players experimenting with and using a variety of different play styles. And part of why I spend my time on this forum is to combat that. So I'm sorry if you felt I unfairly signaled you out, derailed the thread, or psychoanalyzed you. That was not my intention.

I used to play regularly with a warrior who used a shield. She was a Japanese player and very good and I was able to complete a lot of content with her. So warriors who use shields do not automatically suck and therefore legitimate targets for annoyance (I'm not saying you said that, just making that clear). And that was what I was trying to get across.

There are a lot of players out there who play in unusual ways yet succeed at it. So I am advising people to give them a chance before they assume things about them, judge them, or become annoyed by them. That was basically my point.

As far as me wanting to get the last word: all you have to do is clarify that you won't let the mere fact a warrior chooses to play with a shield annoy you and I'll be happy to give you the last word ^^

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Originally Posted by Dale

But it was a good example. From all you have said, unless someone helps you as efficiently and quickly as possible you view it as a punishment. And to touch on what you said, even if you had two choices for a drive to work - one in a Ferrari and another in a station wagon... it doesn't really matter. The person driving you to work in a station wagon is still doing you a favor and it's faster than walking your butt to work. So to view someone helping you as punishment because you had better choices is still extremely misguided - to use a mild term.

And if you want me to stop thinking you always want the fastest set up possible, then you should probably stop putting such an emphasis on it. All I ever read from you on these forums is spreadsheets and dps and how players should do the most damage as possible else they are punishing other players, a leech, and should be barred from all activity outside of role play. So the only one to blame for my impressions of how you think is yourself.

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It's not cuz the example I used wasn't even "I'm killing an NM and I'm getting help". You kept changing the scenario into "I'm getting help, so anything I got is just a bonus", but my point was about everything in this game to begin with, including raid and grinding. In the case of grinding, the logic of "any help I got is just a bonus" can't apply here.

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Originally Posted by Dale

No I insisted that players not be annoyed by how other players choose to play. For example: if a warrior wants to use a shield or a paladin wants to use a great sword. These are not good reasons to get annoyed at someone IMHO.

You can think how ever you want. You can group with who ever you want. All I asked in this thread is that you and others not get annoyed at other players simply because they may play differently than you think they should. And that really isn't too much to ask.

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This is silly, it's human nature that ppl would have certain POV toward others, 95% of time it's something negative.

"This guy is annoying cuz he use a shield!" "This guy is annoying cuz he always fake d/c" "This guy is annoying cuz he always blame on others for failure" "This guy is annoying cuz he likes to show off his gears" "This guys is annoying cuz he only plays SAM".

Every choice you made, everything you said, someone else WILL have certain POV toward it. I bet there are plenty of ppl that's annoyed by both of our posts here.

There's zero reason to ask others NOT to feel annoyed(nor have certain opinion) toward the others. It's not going to work, that's just human nature. At best you can ask others not to act disrespect toward the others, you can't control how they think of the others though.

If you have an issue with other's behavior, point fingers at their action, not their thought/opinion.

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Originally Posted by Afania

It's not cuz the example I used wasn't even "I'm killing an NM and I'm getting help". You kept changing the scenario into "I'm getting help, so anything I got is just a bonus", but my point was about everything in this game to begin with, including raid and grinding. In the case of grinding, the logic of "any help I got is just a bonus" can't apply here.




This is silly, it's human nature that ppl would have certain POV toward others, 95% of time it's something negative.

"This guy is annoying cuz he use a shield!" "This guy is annoying cuz he always fake d/c" "This guy is annoying cuz he always blame on others for failure" "This guy is annoying cuz he likes to show off his gears" "This guys is annoying cuz he only plays SAM".

Every choice you made, everything you said, someone else WILL have certain POV toward it. I bet there are plenty of ppl that's annoyed by both of our posts here.

There's zero reason to ask others NOT to feel annoyed(nor have certain opinion) toward the others. It's not going to work, that's just human nature. At best you can ask others not to act disrespect toward the others, you can't control how they think of the others though.

If you have an issue with other's behavior, point fingers at their action, not their thought/opinion.

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I'm not really understanding your first point because I wasn't trying to change any scenarios.

I was using analogies to try and better illustrate why I take issue with your position that unless someone helps you as quickly and efficiently as possible they are somehow punishing you as a result. I just find that an incredibly misguided way to look at things.

As to your second point: I just think it's silly to get annoyed at someone over such a harmless detail. I have no problem with people having a point of view about something. If you want to think it's stupid for a warrior to use a shield then that is entirely your right to have that point of view. And with that I have no problems. But to get annoyed at them over it to me is a different matter and unnecessary.

In other words: I believe we should be able to have different points of view without it causing us to become annoyed at one another. Especially when it's on a video game and over something as silly as this.

And my reasoning is that a little live and let live would go a long way to making the MMORPG experience a lot more enjoyable for a broader group of players.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I'm not really understanding your first point because I wasn't trying to change any scenarios.

I was using analogies to try and better illustrate why I take issue with your position that unless someone helps you as quickly and efficiently as possible they are somehow punishing you as a result. I just find that an incredibly misguided way to look at things.

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But you can't compare them, cuz asking friends/ls for help with something is completely different from grinding. Asking friends/ls to help you with something is always a bonus, whether they come naked, shield WAR, melee WHM or w/e. Efficiency is a none issue when it comes to getting help, since helpers don't get stuff to begin with.

If a friends come and help with stuff, I don't give a damn about efficiency as well, since extra help is always appreciated. But if I do yorcia 6 NM run, unless I'm selling win I usually would avoid a 45 min run when it can be done in less than 20 min. Most ppl aren't masochist enough to spend double amount of time to do something that everyone else can do twice as fast just because they want to play certain playstyle.

They're just not the same.

If today I can do yorcia 6 NM with 3 shield WAR in 20 min, then I can say role playing in this game isn't a punishment, otherwise I don't agree with you. You get less stuff than others if you role play, how is it not a punishment?

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Originally Posted by Dale

As to your second point: I just think it's silly to get annoyed at someone over such a harmless detail. I have no problem with people having a point of view about something. If you want to think it's stupid for a warrior to use a shield then that is entirely your right to have that point of view. And with that I have no problems. But to get annoyed at them over it to me is a different matter and unnecessary.

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You think it's okay to think it's "stupid" for a WAR to use a shield, but not okay if it's "annoying"?

I don't understand your logic lol.

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Originally Posted by Afania

But you can't compare them, cuz asking friends/ls for help with something is completely different from grinding. Asking friends/ls to help you with something is always a bonus, whether they come naked, shield WAR, melee WHM or w/e. Efficiency is a none issue when it comes to getting help, since helpers don't get stuff to begin with.

If a friends come and help with stuff, I don't give a damn about efficiency as well, since extra help is always appreciated. But if I do yorcia 6 NM run, unless I'm selling win I usually would avoid a 45 min run when it can be done in less than 20 min. Most ppl aren't masochist enough to spend double amount of time to do something that everyone else can do twice as fast just because they want to play certain playstyle.

They're just not the same.

If today I can do yorcia 6 NM with 3 shield WAR in 20 min, then I can say role playing in this game isn't a punishment, otherwise I don't agree with you. You get less stuff than others if you role play, how is it not a punishment?





You think it's okay to think it's "stupid" for a WAR to use a shield, but not okay if it's "annoying"?

I don't understand your logic lol.

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So now suddenly you don't give a damn about efficiency and recognize extra help is always appreciated. Good. I'm glad we are making progress :) So I am content with that.

And you can think something is "stupid" without it causing you to become annoyed at someone. So I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. For example: I think it's really stupid to do get drunk (I know because I had a lot of experience at it in my youth). But that doesn't mean I'm going to let my own personal feelings about it cause me to get annoyed at other people who do choose to get drunk.

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Originally Posted by Dale

So now suddenly you don't give a damn about efficiency and recognize extra help is always appreciated. Good. I'm glad we are making progress :) So I am content with that.

And you can think something is "stupid" without it causing you to become annoyed at someone. So I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. For example: I think it's really stupid to do get drunk (I know because I had a lot of experience at it in my youth). But that doesn't mean I'm going to let my own personal feelings about it cause me to get annoyed at other people who do choose to get drunk.

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Not sure what's so "suddenly don't give a damn about efficiency".......I've been talking about raid/grind event entire time, which is mostly about how much stuff you can get per hr. You're the one mixing raid/grind content with asking for help......Obviously you can't demand your helper to be efficient or something, since they're getting nothing(most of the time) for helping.

My stance about efficiency don't change, since it's based on facts and math. It'll only change if dev change the game design and reward different play style. Let shield WAR grind as much plasm/hr as GA WAR, then I won't say a thing about different play style.


Annoyed is just a POV toward the others like feeling stupid.....

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Originally Posted by Afania

Not sure what's so "suddenly don't give a damn about efficiency".......I've been talking about raid/grind event entire time, which is mostly about how much stuff you can get per hr. You're the one mixing raid/grind content with asking for help......Obviously you can't demand your helper to be efficient or something, since they're getting nothing(most of the time) for helping.

My stance about efficiency don't change, since it's based on facts and math. It'll only change if dev change the game design and reward different play style. Let shield WAR grind as much plasm/hr as GA WAR, then I won't say a thing about different play style.


Annoyed is just a POV toward the others like feeling stupid.....

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So you never have friends help you with raid/grind events? I do what you would refer to as grinding all the time with friends. So is it a punishment or not when a friend who needs something out of it helps you with a raid/grind but doesn't play as efficiently as possible? Cause now I am confused again.

And no, being annoyed at someone else is not just having a point of view. It is a personal emotion toward that individual. To just think something is stupid in a general sense is quite a bit different.

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Originally Posted by Malithar

It's not so much about the most ideal setup, and more about just playing like you're capable of breathing on your own. Part of that includes, but isn't limited to, gearing with some degree of knowledge of what that gear does.

Shield War will not be tanking. Thus, why are they using the shield? It adds nothing to what they bring to the table, it on my detracts from the DPS they could be offering. For what it's worth, I've done plenty of content with Drgs, Pups, Blms, Rdms, etc. Playing and gearing with a good head on your shoulders can make up for much of the difference between the job's base performance.

And Jesus @ this massive derail from just saying I'd be annoyed as the Whm if a War in my party used a shield. Pretty sure you just gotta have the last word Dale, so have fun with that. Thanks for the psychoanalysis of me and why I shouldn't be annoyed at people who waste my time.

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Wow, people are writing like I suggested full timing a shield, I did no such thing. all I said is that when you hopefully swap into that defensive set a shield has utility-an extra 30 defense can help a lot and many shields have -dmg on them as well. Once a cure lands on you, you swap back to whatever set you normally play in, and for most Wars that's likely a GAxe and a grip (seeing a dual-wielding war at 119 is extremely rare) so a shield is impossible. But if you are going to need a few seconds longer than usual (whm mid-cast or low MP or TP on healers) it might be the difference that keeps you alive long enough for them to cure you. I remember leveling war in the old days and I was tanking-until level 30 when all ability to tank pretty much dried up. From that point on, war tanking is pretty much confined to giving the nin time to put shadows back up, allowing a pld to cure themselves, or voking off a pt member who CANNOT take the hit when hate control hits the fan-especially healers or support people-and then only until the tank can take it back, and you wouldn't swap in a shield there unless the fan is fully hit.

no, the only time I would switch to a shield fulltime as a war is going to be when you find out you made a BIG mistake picking that enemy and are hoping to survive by a miracle. IF you live, you don't make that mistake again, fight something else and should only need it if you are waiting on a cure, like soloing with trusts, and that is a swapping situation again.

Swapping to a shield isn't even good for a temporary defence boost, it's so minimal it's not worth it, on the other hand, you lose all your TP, you don't have a GA equipped anymore so you're doing poor damage.

Fact is you'll probably be /SAM or /NIN, if you really look like you're getting killed, Seigan + Third Eye or try to get shadows up while rocking PDT, that should be plenty, swapping to a shield is never a good option.

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Originally Posted by Dale

So you never have friends help you with raid/grind events? I do what you would refer to as grinding all the time with friends. So is it a punishment or not when a friend who needs something out of it helps you with a raid/grind but doesn't play as efficiently as possible? Cause now I am confused again.

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I fail to see how friends in raid/grind event even relevant in this discussion.

My point was about how you got punished if you want to play different style in this game, friend or not.

Btw, I've never seen anyone/friends/lsmate/PUG purposely choose an inefficient playstyle due to role playing purpose, such as a shield WAR. I don't need to "demand" them to play the job in certain way, they aren't going to do it either.

Seriously, is it really that hard to grasp the concept of "you get less stuff per hour if you want to be a shield WAR"?

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Originally Posted by Dale

And no, being annoyed at someone else is not just having a point of view. It is a personal emotion toward that individual. To just think something is stupid in a general sense is quite a bit different.

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So? What's wrong with having an emotion toward the other individual? It's human nature to have positive/negative emotion toward the others.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

Wow, people are writing like I suggested full timing a shield, I did no such thing.

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We knew that, and we've been saying that a WAR using a shield is extremely ineffective...if you're dying with a GA, you're probably gonna die with a shield anyways.....while making the fight last longer and WHM harder to keep the DD alive.

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Originally Posted by Afania

I fail to see how friends in raid/grind event even relevant in this discussion.

My point was about how you got punished if you want to play different style in this game, friend or not.

Btw, I've never seen anyone/friends/lsmate/PUG purposely choose an inefficient playstyle due to role playing purpose, such as a shield WAR. I don't need to "demand" them to play the job in certain way, they aren't going to do it either.

Seriously, is it really that hard to grasp the concept of "you get less stuff per hour if you want to be a shield WAR"?




So? What's wrong with having an emotion toward the other individual? It's human nature to have positive/negative emotion toward the others.

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It's relevant because you brought it up. So it's strange to me you are suddenly saying it has no relevance when you are the one who decided to make it a important distinction in this debate to begin with. But now you are back to saying it's punishment even if a friend helps you in a less-efficient way. It's really hard to keep track of what you are saying because it changes so much.

But anyway: after reading this latest post from you this is what I take your position to be:

For some weird reason you seem to think it's punishment for anyone help you with a raid/grind unless they do it as efficiently as possible. But I maintain you should really learn to appreciate less-then-perfect help and not view it as a punishment. Because it's still better than you having to do it alone. In short: I believe you to have a very flawed idea of what the concept of punishment is.

As to your last point: just because you consider something to be human nature doesn't mean I have to approve of it. I don't get annoyed at people simply because they play a video game differently than I think they should. So it's not in my nature. And I'm pretty human. Least last time I checked.

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Originally Posted by Dale

It's relevant because you brought it up. So it's strange to me you are suddenly saying it has no relevance when you are the one who decided to make it a important distinction in this debate to begin with. But now you are back to saying it's punishment even if a friend helps you in a less-efficient way. It's really hard to keep track of what you are saying because it changes so much.

But anyway: after reading this latest post from you this is what I take your position to be:

For some weird reason you seem to think it's punishment for anyone help you with a raid/grind unless they do it as efficiently as possible. But I maintain you should really learn to appreciate less-then-perfect help and not view it as a punishment. Because it's still better than you having to do it alone. In short: I believe you to have a very flawed idea of what the concept of punishment is.

As to your last point: just because you consider something to be human nature doesn't mean I have to approve of it. I don't get annoyed at people simply because they play a video game differently than I think they should. So it's not in my nature. And I'm pretty human. Least last time I checked.

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People are free to play how they want yes, but at the same time you shouldn't discourage other players from telling them what is proven to be better, it's advice, it helps the player improve. When I first started, WAR was the job I started with and since I knew I wanted to be a PLD I used sword + shield, then suddenly I was told I should really use axes (This was when dual wield was king but I didn't have /NIN at the time) so I went with an axe and shield, after which I was to use a GA.

Since most players will now skip that learning step of areas like the Dunes and Qufim Island, there may be some players out there completely unaware they are playing inefficiently, there is no harm in telling them how to improve, they can take the advice on board, or just ignore it and play how they want.

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Originally Posted by Tidis

People are free to play how they want yes, but at the same time you shouldn't discourage other players from telling them what is proven to be better, it's advice, it helps the player improve. When I first started, WAR was the job I started with and since I knew I wanted to be a PLD I used sword + shield, then suddenly I was told I should really use axes (This was when dual wield was king but I didn't have /NIN at the time) so I went with an axe and shield, after which I was to use a GA.

Since most players will now skip that learning step of areas like the Dunes and Qufim Island, there may be some players out there completely unaware they are playing inefficiently, there is no harm in telling them how to improve, they can take the advice on board, or just ignore it and play how they want.

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We are talking about two different things Tidus.

You can advise players how ever you want. And I was never debating the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of different play-styles.

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Originally Posted by Dale

We are talking about two different things Tidus.

You can advise players how ever you want. And I was never debating the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of different play-styles.

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Except you were, when you were defending a shield War saying it's viable, and that you know plenty of good War's who use shields.

The disconnect you're having with Afania is due to misunderstanding helping someone, and doing a run with someone. If I'm tossing together a casual run of something, say CP farming, I couldn't care less what people bring, people want CPs on different things. I'd still expect them to play at an average level at least, but if they wanna putz around as a melee mage, skill shield, etc, then have at it. But if I'm grinding out say a couple hours of Yorcia runs for gil and someone comes, then they need to be efficient to pull their weight.

It pretty much comes down to the intent of what is being done. If it's something casual, do whatever you want, role play, gimp it up, whatever. If it's something where efficiency will greatly alter the number of clears and drops we can get in a given time (and our focus is on obtaining those as fast as possible) then leave those things at the door, it's (Time for work!)

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Originally Posted by Malithar

Except you were, when you were defending a shield War saying it's viable, and that you know plenty of good War's who use shields.

The disconnect you're having with Afania is due to misunderstanding helping someone, and doing a run with someone

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Except that I wasn't. I'm in a much better position to say what I was doing than you are Malithar. ^^

Just because I said I have known warriors who used shields that were good players and consider them viable does not mean I was debating they were more or less effective than warriors who use great axes or any other play-style.

My disconnect with Afania is over her belief that unless someone helps/does a run with her as efficiently as possible it is somehow punishing her as a result. It's about how she views the contribution of other players in her raid/grind.

And anytime you do a raid/grind with someone they are helping you as far as I'm concerned. This semantic nonsense over the difference in helping and doing a run with someone is enough to hurt my brain cells and has no bearing on this debate at all from my perspective. But in order to be accommodating, I will refrain from using the word help for now on when describing other players who assist you in raids/grind. I'll use that word for now on. :confused:

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Originally Posted by Dale

For some weird reason you seem to think it's punishment for anyone help you with a raid/grind unless they do it as efficiently as possible. But I maintain you should really learn to appreciate less-then-perfect help and not view it as a punishment. Because it's still better than you having to do it alone. In short: I believe you to have a very flawed idea of what the concept of punishment is.

As to your last point: just because you consider something to be human nature doesn't mean I have to approve of it. I don't get annoyed at people simply because they play a video game differently than I think they should. So it's not in my nature. And I'm pretty human. Least last time I checked.

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1) So you still don't get what I mean,to a point that you have to twist my opinion into "you don't appreciate others" huh? At this point idk if you just can't comprehend other's opinion or just trolling.

I appreciate help, I appreciate less than perfect help, for gods sake me nor all of my friends plays perfect. But it is not the same as purposely choosing to play a shield WAR for role playing purpose. Me or all of my friends plays imperfect because that's where our limitations are, choosing to play shield WAR is making a choice when different options available.

At least point idk what to tell you if you still can't grasp the concept nor tell the difference, 5 ppl in this thread told you how shield WAR isn't a good idea, you just wouldn't accept it. Is it really that hard to accept others opinion to a point that you have to twist other's idea into something completely different?

2) Right, you don't get annoyed over someone else, good(or too bad) for you. That doesn't mean everyone else is the same as you. Some ppl has emotion toward the others, let it be happiness or annoyed. You can't ask everyone else to be the same as you.

Just because you aren't like that, doesn't mean it's not part of the human nature to have emotion toward the others. "Human nature" is a term that may not apply to every single individual.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Except that I wasn't. I'm in a much better position to say what I was doing than you are Malithar. ^^

Just because I said I have known warriors who used shields that were good players and consider them viable does not mean I was debating they were more or less effective than warriors who use great axes or any other play-style.

My disconnect with Afania is over her belief that unless someone helps/does a run with her as efficiently as possible it is somehow punishing her as a result. It's about how she views the contribution of other players in her raid/grind.

And anytime you do a raid/grind with someone they are helping you as far as I'm concerned. This semantic nonsense over the difference in helping and doing a run with someone is enough to hurt my brain cells and has no bearing on this debate at all from my perspective. But in order to be accommodating, I will refrain from using the word help for now on when describing other players who assist you in raids/grind. I'll use that word for now on. :confused:

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Doing a raid/grind is DIFFERENT from helping. When you do a yorcia run for plasm/gil, everyone gets $$. The only goal of all the pt members is to get stuff. In this case, it's more like a business, less like killing X NM and completing Y mission.

When I use the term help, I meant one person sacrificed their time to help another player progress, and get little to no return. That's help, and that's not business.

You're the one confusing the 2.

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Originally Posted by Afania

1) So you still don't get what I mean,to a point that you have to twist my opinion into "you don't appreciate others" huh? At this point idk if you just can't comprehend other's opinion or just trolling.

I appreciate help, I appreciate less than perfect help, for gods sake me nor all of my friends plays perfect. But it is not the same as purposely choosing to play a shield WAR for role playing purpose. Me or all of my friends plays imperfect because that's where our limitations are, choosing to play shield WAR is making a choice when different options available.

At least point idk what to tell you if you still can't grasp the concept nor tell the difference, 5 ppl in this thread told you how shield WAR isn't a good idea, you just wouldn't accept it. Is it really that hard to accept others opinion to a point that you have to twist other's idea into something completely different?

2) Right, you don't get annoyed over someone else, good(or too bad) for you. That doesn't mean everyone else is the same as you. Some ppl has emotion toward the others, let it be happiness or annoyed. You can't ask everyone else to be the same as you.

Just because you aren't like that, doesn't mean it's not part of the human nature to have emotion toward the others. "Human nature" is a term that may not apply to every single individual.

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So now the trolling word is coming into play. Yep. I think this conversation is about done :)

I don't understand how you can appreciate someone assisting you while at the same time seeing them as punishing you. That seems to be a contradiction in terms. But w/e. I already said I'm glad you are now saying you appreciate less-than-perfect assistance. So why don't we end it at that as I tried to do earlier? I'm content with that.

And rather a warrior using a shield is a bad idea or good idea isn't my issue. My issue is allowing it to cause you to become annoyed at that person. That's what I have a problem with. Rather you think it's human nature or not doesn't really matter to me. I still have a problem with it.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Doing a raid/grind is DIFFERENT from helping. When you do a yorcia run for plasm/gil, everyone gets $$. The only goal of all the pt members is to get stuff. In this case, it's more like a business, less like killing X NM and completing Y mission.

When I use the term help, I meant one person sacrificed their time to help another player progress, and get little to no return. That's help, and that's not business.

You're the one confusing the 2.

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lol if you say so. I never knew the term help couldn't be applied to doing raids and grinds. And I certainly never knew playing video games was like a business. So I suppose when I ask a buddy to help me with a raid/grind they aren't really helping me if they need something from the raid/grind too? I certainly don't agree with you. But this doesn't matter. I've already stated I will no longer use the word help so it's a non-issue. I will use the word assist for now. Maybe that will avoid these silly word games.

People get annoyed at things that may seem trivial, I love PLD, if I see a poorly geared PLD I may get annoyed, I don't cuss them out, I may tell my LS something like "Wow this PLD is wearing some stupid stuff" without name dropping or anything because that would be unfair.

Likewise, recently I got annoyed at a poorly geared THF with a D Ring, that manly stems from my horrible luck at getting one myself and seeing someone who I would deem as geared poorly, having one ahead of me.

People are well within their right to get annoyed at another player, in the common example here, the WAR using a shield, just don't be a douche about it.

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Originally Posted by Tidis

People get annoyed at things that may seem trivial, I love PLD, if I see a poorly geared PLD I may get annoyed, I don't cuss them out, I may tell my LS something like "Wow this PLD is wearing some stupid stuff" without name dropping or anything because that would be unfair.

Likewise, recently I got annoyed at a poorly geared THF with a D Ring, that manly stems from my horrible luck at getting one myself and seeing someone who I would deem as geared poorly, having one ahead of me.

People are well within their right to get annoyed at another player, in the common example here, the WAR using a shield, just don't be a douche about it.

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If you are saying an individual has a legal right to get annoyed at someone else just because they play differently than they think they should or have gear they don't find acceptable then yes, I guess technically you are right. But I also have a legal right to think it's a stupid reason to get annoyed at someone else over. So I'm not sure what your point is.