Alex Supply and Salvage Cheating- Accounts Not Banned?

That comparison makes no sense. The proper equivalent would be the guy doing time, but not getting life and people thinking the time in jail (or suspension in this case) was not enough

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Originally Posted by Redbeam

That comparison makes no sense. The proper equivalent would be the guy doing time, but not getting life and people thinking the time in jail (or suspension in this case) was not enough

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If you insist on being overly literal, you don't get to rob a bank, serve a weekend in jail, and come back to fat stacks.

No, you don't, but regardless of how much of a slap on the wrist you feel the punishment was, "nothing" is not the correct term to use here.

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Originally Posted by Redbeam

No, you don't, but regardless of how much of a slap on the wrist you feel the punishment was, "nothing" is not the correct term to use here.

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Preventing future instances of a crime is not punishment for crimes committed.

I'm not gonna sit here and stay the suspension was the appropriate punishment, because it wasn't. That said, the suspension was SOMETHING, even if it was not enough. They did more than "nothing" even if it was .01% more effort than nothing. What you're looking for is "They didn't do nearly enough"

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Originally Posted by Redbeam

I'm not gonna sit here and stay the suspension was the appropriate punishment, because it wasn't. That said, the suspension was SOMETHING, even if it was not enough. They did more than "nothing" even if it was .01% more effort than nothing. What you're looking for is "They didn't do nearly enough"

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1 of the first, .9 repeating of the other. A 3-day suspension is indistinguishable from patching and ignoring. Those players lost nothing for being unable to log in for three days, and the precedent is now set that there is no risk to cheating, even in the most egregiously game-breaking manner.

Not quite.

SE has regularly ignored or failed to punish gamebreaking bugs. They've also responded with scorched earth-level spartan punishments for less major exploits, some of which weren't even obviously exploits (wildgrass gardening?). The only thing consistent about SE is their inconsistency. If you look at this and conclude that it is now safe to cheat, you are wrong.

Basically what Byrth said, also give it a rest if they haven't as much said "The development team has no current plans" after 17 pages then this is just a witch hunt at this point.

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Originally Posted by Gobbo

Well, whoever wanted him banned seemed to have gotten their wish:

http://guildwork.com/broadcasts/540e...2aa841f344918d

Good night, sweet prince...

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On a related note, dude wasn't permabanned. He's back in game.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

If you look at this and conclude that it is now safe to cheat, you are wrong.

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I'm going to frame this and put it on a wall so I can have a hearty laugh the next time a massive exploit is "punished" with 3-day vacations.

Assuming the game even makes it that long, since SE expertly timed this to coincide with the "please come back we've changed" free week. Maybe they could spin it. Just add it to the list of campaigns and call it the Clipper Leniency Fiesta.

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Originally Posted by Tomiko

Would you prefer the Merriam-Webster version instead:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cheat

First definition listed:

"to break a rule or law usually to gain an advantage at something"

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And thank you for circling back to my original point of if there is no advantage it's not really cheating. Otherwise you could call swearing in South Carolina "cheating"

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Originally Posted by Tomiko

Actually, it does.

http://support.na.square-enix.com/ru...1&tag=ff11user

2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software designed to modify the Game and gameplay. In addition, you may not take advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay.

Is Windower authorized software? No.

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I really don't understand why you proceeded to quote me where I quoted a section of the rules and then try to prove me wrong by quoting the same exact section just bolding a part of it. But here I shall do the same.

2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software designed to modify the Game and gameplay.

Does vanilla windower no add ons modify the game and game play? Nope. Now before SE added window mode yeah it definitely was but now it's the same thing. Heck some of the early addons have now been added now

Vanilla windower is modifying the game it's not the same thing, so stop trying to whiteknight wdw. It's like you are trying to convice yourself that you don't cheat lol.

lol vanilla. Didn't know the WoW kiddies made it to 11 ><

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

lol vanilla. Didn't know the WoW kiddies made it to 11 ><

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Vanilla, in this case, is a euphemism for plain, default, standard. It's been used that way since long before WoW was a thing.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

lol vanilla. Didn't know the WoW kiddies made it to 11 ><

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There also have been WoW kiddies playing XI on and off and detesting the game cause it's sooo hard far back to at least pre-abyssea.

To be fair most old FF players that hated wow are now playing FFXIV, which is as close a wow clone as you can possibly get.


Those people were retards, they hated wow without ever trying it and are now playing a FF themed wow clone and saying it's next gen and awesome.

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Originally Posted by Pixela

To be fair most old FF players that hated wow are now playing FFXIV, which is as close a wow clone as you can possibly get.


Those people were retards, they hated wow without ever trying it and are now playing a FF themed wow clone and saying it's next gen and awesome.

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They probably hated wow because of art style lol.

I hated WoW for many reasons. Art style, the poor execution of quests (I mean seriously, it's just go to this NPC, talk for a little bit, get the quest flagged, go do random stuff, come get XP!). All sorts of things. The game has no soul. Just like FFXIV...

I like FFXIV, but FFXI is better.

My vanilla comment was mostly directed towards WoW kids using such a stupid statement to refer to classic or original etc. Take the same amount of time to basically say anything else, while actually being correct, rather than calling something a flavor.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

My vanilla comment was mostly directed towards WoW kids using such a stupid statement to refer to classic or original etc. Take the same amount of time to basically say anything else, while actually being correct, rather than calling something a flavor.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanilla_software

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

Nowhere, everyone else is already in that place of comprehension where we understand how many words have common usage that may be different from when the word was created. We're at a place where we understand that the meaning of words change and evolve with common usage.

Then there's you.

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There is no comprehension needed. I'm implying stating that vanilla is incorrect. You can argue however much you want that it is, but it isn't. Better yet, let's ignore the fact that it was a wikipedia post to support his claims, but the references for that post aren't of anything credible. Even more so if it was, you mention the evolution of words referring to something that is classic. Wouldn't the classic, or original meaning be better to refer to something that is classic or the original? Vanilla doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it. Sorry

Whether or not the salvage bans were valid or not is a matter of debate, but I feel like they should at least be executing their rules and policies consistently. If the players in this case really cheated / exploited a bug or glitch, then they should be punished the same way people were the first time. Otherwise it looks bad and the people who were banned before for salvage have good reason to cry foul now that other people aren't being treated the same way.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

There is no comprehension needed. I'm implying stating that vanilla is incorrect. You can argue however much you want that it is, but it isn't. Better yet, let's ignore the fact that it was a wikipedia post to support his claims, but the references for that post aren't of anything credible. Even more so if it was, you mention the evolution of words referring to something that is classic. Wouldn't the classic, or original meaning be better to refer to something that is classic or the original? Vanilla doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it. Sorry

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http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vanilla
http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/vanilla
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plain-vanilla
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vanilla
http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/vanilla
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/vanilla
http://www.yourdictionary.com/plain-vanilla
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vanilla
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/u...ican/vanilla_4
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dic...nglish/vanilla
http://dictionary.reverso.net/englis...lain%20vanilla

Classic, and original, while they aren't terrible descriptors, also could have multiple interpretations, and I would argue are less accurate than vanilla, these two especially may connotate that they refer to perhaps specifically an older version of the program. Not the "vanilla" but current FFXI POL/FFXI loader. While vanilla's other interpretation is obviously incorrect, thus, would cause less confusion than using classic or original in this case.

Official or basic or standard or unmodified, etc etc, would be more exact than vanilla, if you're really really reaching for a more universally fitting word than vanilla, but there's no reason to, 99.99% of people understood the meaning and agreed with it, including pretty much every big name dictionary company even if many only define such a usage as slang or colloquial, the meanings of words change over time, and most people are aware of this use of it, sorry.

99.99% of the people? Who is the people, and where do you get your statistics?

Hyperboles are exaggerations to create emphasis or effect. As a literary device, hyperbole is often used in poetry, and is frequently encountered in casual speech, you may want to get acquainted with their use. That was another literary device, it is called sarcasm.

I just linked you many major dictionary publisher's websites, they consider this definition widespread enough to include it, what more is there to say?

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

99.99% of the people? Who is the people, and where do you get your statistics?

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43.8% of all statistics are made up.

I am apparently in the 0.01%

Vanilla is definitely very commonly understood (at least in the computing world) to mean the core, base, original, first, etc. version of a piece of software (and still sometimes used outside of computers to refer to something being ordinary or unremarkable).

Lots of evolutions of our language don't make sense to everyone, but them not making sense to you does not remove the fact that other people still say it to have that meaning.

If it's not clear to you how this evolution of the word came about, it (most likely) comes from Vanilla being the most common flavor of things like ice cream or yogurt, and is often percieved as being 'plain' or 'original' or 'basic' (Even though yogurt in particular comes in a completely unflavored "plain" variety). So one day people started using 'vanilla' as an adjective to describe things with such characteristics.

I completely understand the word of vanilla and it's use, but it is more correct to use other terms. It is more correct to use other stuff that are more-or-less, not referring to something not even relevant to the topic. Now if you ask my what flavor I like my ice cream, it would be vanilla all day.

Also, if you are referring to " : lacking distinction : plain, ordinary, conventional " type definitions to support your cause, you would be sorely mistaken. Lacking distinction from what? FFXI was it's own entity different from any other MMO. Did it have similar aspects to lets say games like EQ? Sure, but it was still different in a lot of different aspects and definitely not "plain, ordinary, or conventional". Even more so, here is the majority of definition from meridians dictionary. "The frosting is flavored with vanilla." "1
: flavored with vanilla " "The décor is pretty vanilla." ": having the flavor of vanilla" ": not having any special features or qualities" (which again, this would be relevant to the first comment). "a : vanilla bean b : a commercially important extract of the vanilla bean that is prepared by soaking comminuted vanilla beans in water and ethyl alcohol and that is used especially as a flavoring (as in pharmaceutical preparations) " ": any of a genus (Vanilla) of tropical American climbing orchids " So I'm confused, claiming that all your links refer to what you are defending. I decided to just look at the first 2 which both didn't before I gave up and realized you were making up fabrications.

Hyperbole copout lmao.

Don't give statistics if you are incorrect.

But as I can tell, once your mind is made up, it's made up. No point in arguing anymore, just pointing out the inaccuracy of "vanilla" compared to other terms when referring to the beginning of something.

They were not calling XI vanilla but windower that doesn't have any of the bells or whistles as vanilla.*rolls eyes and headesks* you know like the basic model of a car that only has the things that come standard for that model. Instead of let's say leather seats and every seat can be heated. The windows can be heated ect. Obviously those things probably won't be included in the cheapest model of the car.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

I completely understand the word of vanilla and it's use, but it is more correct to use other terms. It is more correct to use other stuff that are more-or-less, not referring to something not even relevant to the topic. Now if you ask my what flavor I like my ice cream, it would be vanilla all day.

Also, if you are referring to " : lacking distinction : plain, ordinary, conventional " type definitions to support your cause, you would be sorely mistaken. Lacking distinction from what? FFXI was it's own entity different from any other MMO. Did it have similar aspects to lets say games like EQ? Sure, but it was still different in a lot of different aspects and definitely not "plain, ordinary, or conventional". Even more so, here is the majority of definition from meridians dictionary. "The frosting is flavored with vanilla." "1
: flavored with vanilla " "The décor is pretty vanilla." ": having the flavor of vanilla" ": not having any special features or qualities" (which again, this would be relevant to the first comment). "a : vanilla bean b : a commercially important extract of the vanilla bean that is prepared by soaking comminuted vanilla beans in water and ethyl alcohol and that is used especially as a flavoring (as in pharmaceutical preparations) " ": any of a genus (Vanilla) of tropical American climbing orchids " So I'm confused, claiming that all your links refer to what you are defending. I decided to just look at the first 2 which both didn't before I gave up and realized you were making up fabrications.

Hyperbole copout lmao.

Don't give statistics if you are incorrect.

But as I can tell, once your mind is made up, it's made up. No point in arguing anymore, just pointing out the inaccuracy of "vanilla" compared to other terms when referring to the beginning of something.

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Of course "the not having any special features or qualities", or "plain, ordinary, or conventional", or if you would've looked further, some of them mention computing specifically, this term was more exact than the suggestions you provided, less so than the ones I provided, but still plenty understandable. That obviously fake "statistic" was clearly there for amusement value and effect, just because you didn't appreciate it didn't mean others didn't.

It seems like you're at war with common speech, good luck with that, there's one thing I agree with you on, it's that there's no point in arguing, "vanilla" in this context is quite accurate and understandable by the writers of dictionaries, the stewards of our language, and clearly, by the majority of people who frequent this site, you stand alone here in your unwillingness to accept this widespread accepted use of the word. This is my last post on the subject, because you are clearly arguing for arguments sake.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vanilla : not having any special features or qualities; lacking distinction : plain, ordinary, conventional

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/de...2%80%93vanilla : not having any special features or qualities We bought the plain-vanilla CD player. [=the most basic model]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plain-vanilla : having no embellishments, extra equipment, elaborate packaging, etc.; plain; simple; down-to-earth:
I want a plain-vanilla car without a lot of chrome trim.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vanilla : Lacking adornments or special features; basic or ordinary: "We went through a period of vanilla cars"; ordinary or conventional: a vanilla kind of guy.; ordinary; commonplace.; plain and without any extras or adornments; "the most common type of bond is the straight or plain vanilla bond"; "the basic car is known as the vanilla version"; I've just got a plain vanilla insurance policy.

http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/vanilla : This word also describes things that are boring or plain.; plain and without any extras or adornments

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/vanilla : In information technology, vanilla (pronounced vah-NIHL-uh ) is an adjective meaning plain or basic. The unfeatured version of a product is sometimes referred to as the vanilla version.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/plain-vanilla : Lacking adornments or special features; basic or ordinary: plain vanilla stock options; a plain vanilla wardrobe.; Computer Definition - Refers to the bare minimum of functions that are known to be available in an application or system. Contrast with bells and whistles.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vanilla : (colloquial, chiefly computing) standard, plain, default, unmodified, basic

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/u...ican/vanilla_4 : of the basic ordinary type, with no special features

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dic...nglish/vanilla : ordinary or conventional ⇒ a vanilla kind of guy

http://dictionary.reverso.net/englis...lain%20vanilla : basic, standard, with no special features

The argument hinges around the vanilla-windower from windower.net, versus ones with Addons and Plugins, and term vanilla is quite appropriately used to distinguish them.

Talk about a derail.

Where we're going, we don't need rails.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1AtE54HpXBM/maxresdefault.jpg

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I completely understand the word of vanilla and it's use, but it is more correct to use other terms

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It's not more correct. It's an acceptable synonym. Any word which can be used to mean the same thing is equally correct. You not liking a term doesn't make it less correct.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

They were not calling XI vanilla but windower that doesn't have any of the bells or whistles as vanilla.*rolls eyes and headesks* you know like the basic model of a car that only has the things that come standard for that model. Instead of let's say leather seats and every seat can be heated. The windows can be heated ect. Obviously those things probably won't be included in the cheapest model of the car.

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It's still the same idea.

Almost none of the responses in Selinfails dictionary responses support the use of Vanilla as a term (it doesn't matter how many people you think agrees with you, doesn't make it correct). I'm not at war with common speech, because many people think people like you guys who refer to stuff as "vanilla" as illiterate and retarded. I've refrained from calling you such things, but to hopefully make you guys better understand how incorrect you are. That is ok though because apparently 99.99% population agrees with you that vanilla is/has/always be the appropriate term to use on anything you want.

I just went and took a vanilla the other day. I also drove my vanilla to the vanilla store to buy some vanilla. I had this weird vanilla the other day while sleeping, so I woke up to vanilla while hitting snooze on my vanilla so I could vanilla a bit longer. I then went and played some vanilla with my friends while we chatted about vanilla. I then took my vanilla girlfriend to a vanilla restaurant where we ordered a bunch of vanilla. In the end, it was just a plain old vanilla day.

I concede. I thoroughly enjoyed referring to everything as vanilla. I will do it for now on.

Vanilla out

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

It's still the same idea.

Almost none of the responses in Selinfails dictionary responses support the use of Vanilla as a term (it doesn't matter how many people you think agrees with you, doesn't make it correct). I'm not at war with common speech, because many people think people like you guys who refer to stuff as "vanilla" as illiterate and retarded. I've refrained from calling you such things, but to hopefully make you guys better understand how incorrect you are. That is ok though because apparently 99.99% population agrees with you that vanilla is/has/always be the appropriate term to use on anything you want.

I just went and took a vanilla the other day. I also drove my vanilla to the vanilla store to buy some vanilla. I had this weird vanilla the other day while sleeping, so I woke up to vanilla while hitting snooze on my vanilla so I could vanilla a bit longer. I then went and played some vanilla with my friends while we chatted about vanilla. I then took my vanilla girlfriend to a vanilla restaurant where we ordered a bunch of vanilla. In the end, it was just a plain old vanilla day.

I concede. I thoroughly enjoyed referring to everything as vanilla. I will do it for now on.

Vanilla out

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....*Yawn*

Sometimes it's okay to just admit that you're wrong.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

....*Yawn*

Sometimes it's okay to just admit that you're wrong.

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lawls

/10chars

EDIT:

I mean vanilla lawls

/10vanillachars

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Originally Posted by Pixela

For an exploit of this magnitutude, serious action should of been taken.

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Pardon me for guessing but, do you not mean should have, instead of should of? This... thing... is spreading like some unspeakable monstrosity that should be stopped. Like kappa, that isn't kappa. I believe that should of is not correct, at all, and I think a lot of simple DuckDuckGo search results (or whatever engine one might prefer to use) will agree with me.

Please, do not take this too personal, for it is indeed a widespread thing. I'dn't've replied to this if I didn't have something to say about the topic itself here, but since I do, I couldn't resist. : D

I like to ask people to go ahead and replace every of in their future dialogue with have to illustrate why it doesn't work. ^^

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Originally Posted by Afania

2) Dual box, you need 2 PC or 1 PC 1 console if you need to play multiple character without windower. Personally I can't afford 2 PC and I don't have a console version, so I can't dual box. That means I can't farm plasm/gil as fast as dual box players.

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Not entirely true!

To my knowledge, virtual machines, as well as compatibility layers (Wine on Linux, which is my choice) are just fine, as they don't modify the client, nor do they give any sort of unfair advantages.


Since 2005, Wine is indeed the only third-party software I have ever used in conjunction with FINAL FANTASY XI/X|V. Yes, I'm one of those crazy people who don't do them “enhancers” simply out of respect towards the rules, and really, I have not had the need. Sure I wont be able to do what others (majority?) might, but that's to be expected when they use such helpers. ^^;

When I'm a part of a community such as this one here, I always tend to imagine myself laying out the rules for my own game/community. That is to say, I certainly would like people to play by them, not choose what to respect and what not. If I wanted that, I would not have made them rules at all, or I would make it clear they are mere suggestions, and/or guidelines (such as use of common sense).

Violating the rules affects the community in various ways, no matter how much some seem to be telling themselves, and others, that the only effects are them having more fun.

Messing about with a single-player game can be fun (something like having Aeris beat Sephiroth in FINAL FANTASY VII for example), but ultimately, I always enjoy the most when I play a game the way it's meant to be played, and will not abuse glitches when not actually trying to break a thing in testing for example, to have it fixed, or while otherwise having fun within the limits of copyrights and all.


Do I think Windower users should be banished? Sure. A short vacation of three (3) days might do. If people would quit over it and it would end the game as we know it, so be it. This, too, is not personal; I don't blame people using it, and I don't jump at the throats of players who do. Some only use(d) it for the windowed-mode when it was not possible via official means, which it now is.

Furthermore, it is SqEX who should have been enforcing their rules all this time, but chose not to. I imagine it's way too late to start now.


I'm glad this thread has not been removed/locked (yet), which I might guess will happen sooner or later. It raises awareness, and hopefully makes users question if they want to pay for this particular service still. I for one, still do, but that's only because I still have friends around. The service itself has unfortunately been disappointing to say the least, and this kind of community management fer sure doesn't make it any better.

I would guess, or rather hope, that they are indeed still investigating this specific case, and hopefully will at least remove all the ill-gotten goodies, and I would not mind the accounts suspended permanently, with the customers blocked from every other services of the company.

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Originally Posted by Panda2013

When are the devs going to chime in?

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Methinks developers rarely deal with rule enforcement, for it's usually the job of gamemasters and other such moderators. Yeah, you probably meant those, and I'm merely nitpicking; no offence intended! ^^

That being said, I doubt we will get much of an answer here, though I don't consider it completely impossible. Matters regarding accounts of other users is simply not a thing that they discuss with other users. I think I can guess what the answer will be like, if there will be any. It will be either that, or the thread will simply disappear. It might be a general reminder on exploits and third-party applications being a violation of the Terms of Service.

Nevertheless, I'm still rooting for a there is an ongoing investigation to confirm the scope of the exploit(s), and proper actions will be taken in due time. I fear it will be too late in many ways by then, since it seems they released the perpetrators already, but oh well...


Blubb!

Honestly if they aren't going to ban the cheaters they should at least lower mythic requirements. It makes them a joke if more than half of the mythics that exist are due to cheating. Give the non cheaters a chance to get one with a less ridiculous time sink.

SE's temporary 3 day ban for those that were caught cheating was most likely due to their examination of the number of accounts that would be lost if they banned them all. SE is a FOR PROFIT company after all, and making money is their bottom line.

Nevertheless, this serves as a bad precedent for the state of the game. That SE cares more for their bottom line than the rules they wrote for the game. This will most likely end up with more people using 3rd party programs since they will be embrazened with the fact that SE just wants money.

What can be done about this really all depends on SE. The problem is both with the gilsellers and the gilbuyers, without 1 the other wouldn't exist. Perhaps is SE sold gil directly, at always cutrate rates of the gilsellers, that would eliminate the gilsellers and gain them the lost income, although at the expense of an inflating economy.

Or even selling items directly to players(IE a mythic for $1000). SE already does this already by the physical items that are sold with the special bonus codes for in game items. For me, i've bought some of these items JUST for the code, and consider the IRL item the bonus item. I'm sure there are others that did this just for the ingame item as well, it is only SE's choice to view the code as the bonus and not the item that you are paying to obtain. In reality/in game it is basically the same thing, just a different point of view.

There will always be those that are willing to pay real money for an ingame item, ie buying gil to buy an item in game so why not SE sell it directly and get rid of the gilsellers. As long as SE keeps their cost per gil below that of which gilsellers can turn a profit, that removes the gilsellers(NON SE), and therefor the gilbuyers(NON SE). Yes it will cause inflation but it is occuring now already, so why not SE profit from it. With said profits it would then be feasible to ban players that cheat instead of giving them a temp 3 day ban. I cite the IRL example of prohabition in the US. People still found a way to get alcohol and eventually the ban was lifted. There is no way to stop those that are willing to pay real world money for ingame items so why not facilitate a method that is within SE rules(yes rules would have to be rewritten but since SE makes the rules it is easy and up to them to do so).

There is no silver bullet fix for this issue, but this could be 1 option.

Seems a few lm-31s were passed out today. Some people I know for sure did the salvage exploit were hit, but not all of them. So maybe it's related to the assault tag thing that was just patched