[Suggestion] Consolidating Equip Macros

I think limiting the number lf equips you can change is good. It adds an element of choice and strategy, instead of just getting the best equipment and everyone being identical due to OCD.

The problem is more that SE don't care about people who use third party programs. It puts the rest of the playerbase at a disadvantage.

Either SE needs to allow full gear swaps, or they need to be tougher on 3rd party tools. To be bonest, I'd rather see the second option.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hey guys,

I just wanted to let you know that we understand everyone's viewpoints as to why swapping additional gear via macros would be favorable, and to some, it may not.

The following policies were established from the beginning after thoroughly exploring the macro feature:

1. The fundamental rule is that macros execute one action per line. (Excluding “/wait”)
2. It is not possible to automate things nor call other macros within a macro.

Due to the aforementioned reasons, we do not plan to expand macros and we appreciate your understanding.

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Okay than, can you up the amount of line's than?

The arguments against third party applications seem to boil down to the fact that they are not fair. They confer significant advantages that not everyone wants to, or is able to make use of. That is indisputible. Whether that's okay or not seems to be open to interpretation. I would personally say that it is not okay.

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Originally Posted by Jerbob

The arguments against third party applications seem to boil down to the fact that they are not fair. They confer significant advantages that not everyone wants to, or is able to make use of. That is indisputible. Whether that's okay or not seems to be open to interpretation. I would personally say that it is not okay.

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how are they not fair? the average household in the countries that this game supports, generally has access to a personal computer. use half a brain cell with google, and you'll realize the notion of "unfair" boils down to "stubborn".

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Originally Posted by Jackstin

I think limiting the number lf equips you can change is good. It adds an element of choice and strategy, instead of just getting the best equipment and everyone being identical due to OCD.

The problem is more that SE don't care about people who use third party programs. It puts the rest of the playerbase at a disadvantage.

Either SE needs to allow full gear swaps, or they need to be tougher on 3rd party tools. To be bonest, I'd rather see the second option.

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I looked in the fridge today and saw that there was a carton of eggs, a pack of bacon and some bread. I decided that I was going to make scrambled eggs, bacon and toast for breakfast.

My girlfriend said "You can't have scrambled eggs toast and bacon. You can only have one of those things. I'm throwing the rest out. Sorry that you bought them. But look, I gave you a choice. Isn't that fun?"

I said "But why would you only want one thing for breakfast when you could have three?"

She said "it has always been my intention to never dirty more than one pan when making breakfast"

I said "fine,I will cook the bacon and the eggs and toast in the same pan."

She stared blankly and then threw my eggs and bacon in the trash, so I threw her out of my house. As she was walking to her car, some guy proceeded to tell me how mean I was and that being mean to her wouldn't make her change her mind. My neighbors all said in unison "Who the hell are you? Mind your own business."

Variety through malnutrition!

Huzzah!

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Variety through malnutrition!

Huzzah!

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She wasn't taking away my bacon and eggs. She was giving me a choice so that my breakfast would be more fun. ;)

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Originally Posted by Zerich

how are they not fair? the average household in the countries that this game supports, generally has access to a personal computer. use half a brain cell with google, and you'll realize the notion of "unfair" boils down to "stubborn".

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I can see your argument but I think it's necessary to be practical about this. A large number of people use FFXI on a platform that does not support third party applications. Another group of people do not use third party applications because they are in violation of the terms of service or because they object to there being differences in the level of gameplay provided by different platforms. This will not change. Of course I agree that people can swap to using a PC or ignore the terms of service, but they should not have to, nor should their choice be considered a bad one so that people can justify using these programs.

The concept of "fairness" is pretty nebulous at the best of times but I think that it's pretty hard to claim that a third party/non-third party comparison isn't objectively unfair. It may or may not be stubbornness that causes people to use consoles or refuse to use third party programs, but that's kind of irrelevant for as long as consoles are supported platforms and those programs remain in violation of the terms of service.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hey guys,

I just wanted to let you know that we understand everyone's viewpoints as to why swapping additional gear via macros would be favorable, and to some, it may not.

The following policies were established from the beginning after thoroughly exploring the macro feature:

1. The fundamental rule is that macros execute one action per line. (Excluding “/wait”)
2. It is not possible to automate things nor call other macros within a macro.

Due to the aforementioned reasons, we do not plan to expand macros and we appreciate your understanding.

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Calling up an equipment set is considered "automation?" I don't see how anything can be exploited by people quickly switching armor. I see this as a well overdue and needed change.

Right now I have to switch between two separate lines of macros to be efficient at my job, and even then I'm still missing some things I need. And hitting more than 1 macro to do an ability? That just doesn't happen.
I had two macros set up for Sneak Attack once, one for 6 pieces of equipment and one with 5 pieces + Sneak Attack. This also meant I needed 2 macros to switch back to TP gear. What happened? The first macro would get the shaft because I'd either forget or need to quickly use Sneak Attack and hit it's macro out of need or reflex.

Macros are already stored client side anyway, so what's the issue with expansion?

@ cid, zerich and frank

you guys need to stop being trolls and start acting a bit more decently. Just because people do not agree with you, doesn't make them trolls. Just because people play differently then you, don't mean they suck.

Gear swap though helpful isn't really manditory. I solo some abby NM w/o gear swaping and one. I tanked some IT mobs solo and never died. (@ 75 cap) All gear swap does is just increase output making fights a tad easier.

But really all you guys are doing is hurting your suggestion by insulting anyone who disagrees. I pretty much did try to warn you this maybe the responce you will get. All macros are, are basic scripting.

If anyone played an MUD is the basic way people those. You do a series of slash commands and just type in the trigger for each command. But each aspect of the command needs to be on a seperate line unless its like a sub command much like <wait#>. And as far as I know gear coomands may not beable to be used through sub commands do to the nature it.

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Originally Posted by Jerbob

I can see your argument but I think it's necessary to be practical about this. A large number of people use FFXI on a platform that does not support third party applications. Another group of people do not use third party applications because they are in violation of the terms of service or because they object to there being differences in the level of gameplay provided by different platforms. This will not change. Of course I agree that people can swap to using a PC or ignore the terms of service, but they should not have to, nor should their choice be considered a bad one so that people can justify using these programs.

The concept of "fairness" is pretty nebulous at the best of times but I think that it's pretty hard to claim that a third party/non-third party comparison isn't objectively unfair. It may or may not be stubbornness that causes people to use consoles or refuse to use third party programs, but that's kind of irrelevant for as long as consoles are supported platforms and those programs remain in violation of the terms of service.

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It is breaking ToS, yes. That's all you've established. But you've yet to debunk the claim of "stubbornness"

Stubborn: Having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, esp. in spite of good arguments or reasons...

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Originally Posted by Zerich

how are they not fair? the average household in the countries that this game supports, generally has access to a personal computer. use half a brain cell with google, and you'll realize the notion of "unfair" boils down to "stubborn".

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Stubborn or not does not change the fact that using windower is against ToS(and by this time, admitted by SE that it's against design intention). You're basically telling everyone to cheat or else you're stubborn.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Stubborn or not does not change the fact that using windower is against ToS(and by this time, admitted by SE that it's against design intention). You're basically telling everyone to cheat or else you're stubborn.

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I am not telling anyone to "cheat" or break their ToS.
I am pointing out that crying about unfair advantages, because someone plays on a console, is nothing but being stubborn.

And Rosa, no one cares about your claims on soloing IT mobs and NMs in Abyssea, most WHMs can do the same.

I could have sworn that this thread was about getting some of the functionality that is widely used anyways into the game in a legitimate manner. Why are we debating whether third party apps are unfair? We all know they are unfair. If they were okay in general, no one would ask SE to change anything. They would all be over at the windower forums instead.

The point is that there are some much needed changes to the basic functionality of the game and other groups have already made major inroads to fixing them. This is much like prohibition. You make something that the vast majority of people want illegal, and you don't stop it. You just make a few people rich and a lot of people suffer.

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Originally Posted by Zerich

It is breaking ToS, yes. That's all you've established. But you've yet to debunk the claim of "stubbornness"

Stubborn: Having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, esp. in spite of good arguments or reasons...

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It's easy to make generalisations about people and their situations without being realistic. A mass transition away from platforms that do not support third party applications is simply not going to happen for a whole host of reasons that are often far more complex than stubbornness. It is not possible to generalise. It's only necessary to visit one of the PS2 discussion threads to see a few of these reasons, of varying validity. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with any of them, but they are there.

Once it is accepted that there will always be people with valid reasons not to migrate to platforms that support third party applications, the question of whether it's fair arises again. The very fact that things are unfair with respect to people who have no reasonable choice in terms of platform - reasonable here in the context of a game, meaning people aren't going to go out of their way to make platform changes - is one of your definition of stubbornness' "good arguments". Breaking the ToS, I would argue, is a second, though apparently not everyone agrees on this point.

[fake edit] Yes, this is getting kind of off topic so I will stop here.

Rosina you're the last person who should be calling any one a troll and i didn't realize whiteknight err onion was related to you.

There are methods to stream line macro execution but the methodology is still cumbersome and any mistakes made when pressing the macro's can find you in the wrong pallet and unable to execute other actions without re-executing one of the other macros in the chain.

The /set macro commands were a nice bone for consoles but still a farcry from a true equalizer. This ought to be a bigger concern for the Dev team vice many other minuscule and minute changes that they have planning. That or the whole gear design concept needs to be overhauled so that we have 1 do all be all sets and disable gear swapping all together (don't you f'n dare this is sarcasm)

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Originally Posted by Zerich

I am not telling anyone to "cheat" or break their ToS.
I am pointing out that crying about unfair advantages, because someone plays on a console, is nothing but being stubborn.

And Rosa, no one cares about your claims on soloing IT mobs and NMs in Abyssea, most WHMs can do the same.

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Huh? Um, what? So if someone bought this game for Xbox and is watching others exploit features which both violate the ToS and have now been announced in an explicit fashion by the Devs/Reps as not being something they will look to implement/change, what exactly does "being stubborn" have to do with this scenario? Expecting the game to operate evenly across supported platforms has nothing, at all, to do with being stubborn. It clearly offers a certain segment of the player base an advantage over others.

That is about fairness, and fair play. If the game is supported on platforms that do not allow access to these third party applications, that is a fairness issue. Its really none of your business what platform people choose to play on, and has nothing to do with the underlying issue.

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Originally Posted by Phogg

Huh? Um, what? So if someone bought this game for Xbox and is watching others exploit features which both violate the ToS and have now been announced in an explicit fashion by the Devs/Reps as not being something they will look to implement/change, what exactly does "being stubborn" have to do with this scenario? Expecting the game to operate evenly across supported platforms has nothing, at all, to do with being stubborn. It clearly offers a certain segment of the player base an advantage over others.

That is about fairness, and fair play. If the game is supported on platforms that do not allow access to these third party applications, that is a fairness issue. Its really none of your business what platform people choose to play on, and has nothing to do with the underlying issue.

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If it's about fairness of play then folks should be totally on board for lobbying for improvements to the vanilla client. The PC community already has access to a vastly superior experience via third party improvements. That's not going away. What we can do is encourage SE to step up its game and make improvements to the vanilla client that rival the improvements made by third party developers. It's the best of both worlds that way.

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Originally Posted by Phogg

Huh? Um, what? So if someone bought this game for Xbox and is watching others exploit features which both violate the ToS and have now been announced in an explicit fashion by the Devs/Reps as not being something they will look to implement/change, what exactly does "being stubborn" have to do with this scenario? Expecting the game to operate evenly across supported platforms has nothing, at all, to do with being stubborn. It clearly offers a certain segment of the player base an advantage over others.

That is about fairness, and fair play. If the game is supported on platforms that do not allow access to these third party applications, that is a fairness issue. Its really none of your business what platform people choose to play on, and has nothing to do with the underlying issue.

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it's not any of my business, that's right. however, this game can run on nearly any p.o.s. pc from walmart.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

If it's about fairness of play then folks should be totally on board for lobbying for improvements to the vanilla client. The PC community already has access to a vastly superior experience via third party improvements. That's not going away. What we can do is encourage SE to step up its game and make improvements to the vanilla client that rival the improvements made by third party developers. It's the best of both worlds that way.

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I'm not arguing the UI should not be improved. I am fully on board with that, things like displaying TP and distance, improved macros, etc., I'm all for it.

What I'm arguing is its completely irrelevant to suggest that because someone plays on an Xbox or PS2 that those end users are somehow responsible for their UI experience because they are "stubborn". Its just a stupid argument with no relevance. The fact is, two platforms which are officially supported do not have equal access to third party "improvements", which creates an issue regarding fairness.

I'm with you, the solution is to fix the UI, not act like a troll because some people choose to play on one of the other supported platforms rather than need to both repurchase the game and buy a "p.o.s. pc from walmart" when they already have a perfectly capable platform to play on.

BTW, I play on a PC so I don't even have a dog in the fight on that end, I just have an aversion to stupid arguments that do nothing to promote actually fixing the issues.

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Originally Posted by Phogg

I'm with you, the solution is to fix the UI, not act like a troll because some people choose to play on one of the other supported platforms rather than need to both repurchase the game and buy a "p.o.s. pc from walmart" when they already have a perfectly capable platform to play on.

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Fair enough. I'm not arguing that point one way or the other.

My beef is with people who are actively arguing against improving the game.

5156156151

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Originally Posted by Zerich

I am not telling anyone to "cheat" or break their ToS.
I am pointing out that crying about unfair advantages, because someone plays on a console, is nothing but being stubborn.

And Rosa, no one cares about your claims on soloing IT mobs and NMs in Abyssea, most WHMs can do the same.

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ya with gear swap...big deal.

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Originally Posted by Rosina

ya with gear swap...big deal.

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You really have no idea how big a deal, do you?

The biggest problem I have with all the people supporting SE's stance on this and SE's stance is this:

WE ALREADY GEAR SWAP AS MUCH AS WE WANT! All we are asking for is not to have to use 3 macros to put the gear on, then 3 macros to change it back. This is a QUALITY OF LIFE issue.

Please note again, you aren't enabling us to do something new - we ALREADY DO IT!!!!!! It's just a pain in the ass to have to use so many macros to do it.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I looked in the fridge today and saw that there was a carton of eggs, a pack of bacon and some bread. I decided that I was going to make scrambled eggs, bacon and toast for breakfast.

My girlfriend said "You can't have scrambled eggs toast and bacon. You can only have one of those things. I'm throwing the rest out. Sorry that you bought them. But look, I gave you a choice. Isn't that fun?"

I said "But why would you only want one thing for breakfast when you could have three?"

She said "it has always been my intention to never dirty more than one pan when making breakfast"

I said "fine,I will cook the bacon and the eggs and toast in the same pan."

She stared blankly and then threw my eggs and bacon in the trash, so I threw her out of my house. As she was walking to her car, some guy proceeded to tell me how mean I was and that being mean to her wouldn't make her change her mind. My neighbors all said in unison "Who the hell are you? Mind your own business."

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Final Fantasy XI is a game. One of the distinguishing features of a game is its limits. Roleplaying games in particular are known for being large scale games underpinned by core rules. Your real life analogies aren't equivalents.

My point is simple, I'm going to use White Mage as an example because it is the one job I've found people pressure you into using windower. If you can change every piece of gear then for HMP you just buy a load of MP healing equips, for Idle, you just stack a load of refreshes together, haste is self explanatory, PDT. Everyone has the same gearsets! The only thing that separates people is how much time they've devoted to getting every single good piece.

Now I'm going to limit you to changing six pieces, and keeping the rest static. Which six pieces would you choose? Would you make the static pieces all round pieces, or maybe you'd specialise in healing, or fast cast, or you just want a fat stack of MP. When you get Arka IV you may no longer have to switch in Facio Bliaut so you have the future to think about as well. If nobody was allowed to use these third party tools then the game could become more strategic and interesting.

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Originally Posted by Jackstin

My point is simple, I'm going to use White Mage as an example because it is the one job I've found people pressure you into using windower. If you can change every piece of gear then for HMP you just buy a load of MP healing equips, for Idle, you just stack a load of refreshes together, haste is self explanatory, PDT. Everyone has the same gearsets! The only thing that separates people is how much time they've devoted to getting every single good piece.

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And this would be different from any other game on the market...how exactly?

See there isnt a limit if you know what you're doing and how much BS you want to put up with to achieve it, with 3 in game macros set up properly i can press control 1 3x in rapid succession and change out 15 pieces of gear. why do i need to do it like that though? its beyond silly retarded or otherwise bad game design.

Further more as it stands third party programs allow a much more intuitive method of gear swapping then straight macros, you talk about every whm having the same sets, well WHM1 using 3rd party doesnt even have to worry about hitting macros to put on said sets meaning thier ability to react to the need of the situation is .5 seconds perhaps even a full 1.5 seconds faster then WHM2 who's using in game macros.

Considering SE has taken a blind eye approach to windower as it stands why would you be against them adding in features that level the playing field legally? your whole trip about limitations is BS basically because they don't truly exist, the only limit is how good you are at using the in game macros.

Also you talk about making the game more stratigic by gimping player performance? most of the NMs currently are developed around the fact that peeps can have full PDT/MDT, TP, WS, nuking, curing, refresh, haste, HMP sets depending on the job, not to mention nothing in this game can be considered stratigic when you have a BROKEN emity system and NM's that have i win buttons.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

And this would be different from any other game on the market...how exactly?

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Ah videogame enthusiasts. Aspiring to conventional mediocrity since the 80s.

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Originally Posted by Jackstin

Which six pieces would you choose?

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I choose to slowly develop chronic stress injuries in my hands and wrists as I hit six or more macros to perform every action and switch back to my idle set after each action.

As my hands contort into beast-like claws and my heart fills with vengeance, I become more like a plotting super-villain each day.

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Originally Posted by Nala

See there isnt a limit if you know what you're doing and how much BS you want to put up with to achieve it, with 3 in game macros set up properly i can press control 1 3x in rapid succession and change out 15 pieces of gear. why do i need to do it like that though? its beyond silly retarded or otherwise bad game design.

Further more as it stands third party programs allow a much more intuitive method of gear swapping then straight macros, you talk about every whm having the same sets, well WHM1 using 3rd party doesnt even have to worry about hitting macros to put on said sets meaning thier ability to react to the need of the situation is .5 seconds perhaps even a full 1.5 seconds faster then WHM2 who's using in game macros.

Considering SE has taken a blind eye approach to windower as it stands why would you be against them adding in features that level the playing field legally? your whole trip about limitations is BS basically because they don't truly exist, the only limit is how good you are at using the in game macros.

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As I said before I would be in favour of both allowing full gear swaps, and being way more strict with the banning of windower, for precisely that reason, because it isn't fair that some players have a huge advantage.

However of those two options I would EASILY prefer the ban hammer route, because it makes the game more of a game and less of an addiction.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

I choose to slowly develop chronic stress injuries in my hands and wrists as I hit six or more macros to perform every action and switch back to my idle set after each action.

As my hands contort into beast-like claws and my heart fills with vengeance, I become more like a plotting super-villain each day.

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Been there.
Done that.

Still waiting on the T-shirt...

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

I choose to slowly develop chronic stress injuries in my hands and wrists as I hit six or more macros to perform every action and switch back to my idle set after each action.

As my hands contort into beast-like claws and my heart fills with vengeance, I become more like a plotting super-villain each day.

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Or you could have one button press but only change 5 carefully chosen pieces.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

I choose to slowly develop chronic stress injuries in my hands and wrists as I hit six or more macros to perform every action and switch back to my idle set after each action.

As my hands contort into beast-like claws and my heart fills with vengeance, I become more like a plotting super-villain each day.

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Spank has formed the only logical argument against gearswapping

Let's take this moment in.

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Originally Posted by Jackstin

Ah videogame enthusiasts. Aspiring to conventional mediocrity since the 80s.

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Don't quite get it, cid was pointing out that 11 is unique in that it allows active battle gear swaps, by limiting swapping how would 11 differ from any other standard MMO on the market, furthermore aspiring to gear swap more pieces more often seems a far cry from aspiring to mediocrity.

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Originally Posted by Nala

Don't quite get it, cid was pointing out that 11 is unique in that it allows active battle gear swaps, by limiting swapping how would 11 differ from any other standard MMO on the market, furthermore aspiring to gear swap more pieces more often seems a far cry from aspiring to mediocrity.

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No he wasn't. He was saying that it is a good thing that like every other MMO an FF11 game with unlimited gear swaps encourages everyone to grind for the same best equipment. It was me who was hailing FF11s unique gear swap mechanic, and I truly believe that. Saying that you can swap 6 pieces is genius and opens up so much in terms of tactics and variety. Allowing unlimited gear swaps just encourages everyone to get the same uber gear, making it like every other unimaginative MMO out there.

Putting words in my mouth...Kids these days.

Junior here thinks that if we force everyone to gimp it up we'll somehow achieve "more tactical gameplay" and that everyone will get to be a unique snowflake. He complains that right now, and I quote:

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Originally Posted by Jackstin

Everyone has the same gearsets! The only thing that separates people is how much time they've devoted to getting every single good piece.

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While failing to realize that this is the exact same situation in every single game on the market. There is always a metagame and it always means everyone ends up wearing the same gear. If anything, FFXI's flexibility with so many different moving parts to the gear equation means that there are vastly more options for gear oneself in this game than in any other.

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Originally Posted by Jackstin

No he wasn't. He was saying that it is a good thing that like every other MMO an FF11 game with unlimited gear swaps encourages everyone to grind for the same best equipment. It was me who was hailing FF11s unique gear swap mechanic, and I truly believe that. Saying that you can swap 6 pieces is genius and opens up so much in terms of tactics and variety. Allowing unlimited gear swaps just encourages everyone to get the same uber gear, making it like every other unimaginative MMO out there.

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You show me the ultimate sets of gear for any job that can not be improved in any way and many players can get their hands on, wont happen. Even if people could pin it down to the absolute best possible sets for a job it wouldn't matter because I am 99% sure some gear is out of reach to most players like a Toci's or something with an absurdly low drop rate. The goal is to get them, and everyone has their own path, that path is different for alot of people.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

FFXI's flexibility with so many different moving parts to the gear equation means that there are vastly more options for gear oneself in this game than in any other.

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I like this.

Oh wow, resorting to calling me a child, that's very mature (see what I did there?)

You are wrong in saying that meta games always end up with everyone having identical characters. It is true in that obsessives always try to abuse the game to create uber template characters, but a well designed game will make this difficult. Pokemon has done this, precisely by placing restrictions.

Your idea that anyone who doesn't use full gear swaps is gimping it up is precisely what is wrong with this game. Full gear swaps do not give people more options. An option is a choice between this or that. Windower lets you have your cake and eat it.