New SMN JA "Possession" Empowering the "Melee SMN"

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

PLD can main heal OUTSIDE ABYSSEA, but it's inferior to anything with a bigger native MP pool, and the other jobs restricted to Cure IV have much better options for enhancing their cures as well as recovering their larger MP pools. Considering this is really only relevant outside abyssea (GL keeping up with cures inside...), the smaller MP and very limited innate MP recovery make it laughably inefficient compared to the other Cure IV options. And BLU is limited pretty badly by recast timers, usually every time I've tried having a BLU main heal even on easy stuff like Gnawtooth it hasn't ended well.

So uh... no, try again

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You missed the point. Because it can, that means to the melee SMNs that they should. Thats how they think.

Because PLD could main heal with their Cure spells and their MP, they should.

Because BLU could main heal with their learned healing spells and their MP, they should.

Like because SMN could whack stuff with their staffs, they should.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

You missed the point. Because it can, that means to the melee SMNs that they should. Thats how they think.

Because PLD could main heal with their Cure spells and their MP, they should.

Because BLU could main heal with their learned healing spells and their MP, they should.

Like because SMN could whack stuff with their staffs, they should.

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Oh okay, you're effectively agreeing with me.

My post was more saying "Well, it's remotely possible, but not feasible in the slightest" than actually saying "yes, it works".

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

Oh okay, you're effectively agreeing with me.

My post was more saying "Well, it's remotely possible, but not feasible in the slightest" than actually saying "yes, it works".

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I was telling you how they think.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

My post was more saying "Well, it's remotely possible, but not feasible in the slightest" than actually saying "yes, it works".

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Yes, it works. Hold on to your hat... here we go. SMN/SAM "melee" versus SMN/RDM "sitter."


100% TP is a guaranteed 360 MP outside of Abyssea, and 500+ MP inside. 1 TP regain = 3.6 MP refresh. Refresh spell = 2.2 MP net refresh. In other words, simply owning the regain earring from WotG is 50% better than subbing /RDM for the Refresh spell. I haven't started meleeing yet.

Convert, if you are smart about race and gear choices, give you 1200MP every 10 minutes. That then requires, I'll be generous, a full Cure Potency set to recover HP in 3 casts of Cure 3. Net MP gained = 1062 MP. This is equal to one 300% TP Myrkr outside of Abyssea.

10 minutes as melee SMN to generate 300% TP... First, that's 3.333 uses of Meditate, or 200% TP for free. That means I need 100% TP earned the hard way, by actually hitting something. /SAM generates 11.5% TP per hit, without gear or food. That's 9 hits to reach 100% TP. I need to connect with the mob once every 67 seconds. In terms of accuracy, I have 48% Haste on a 390 delay weapon. I attack every 3.38 seconds, not including any double attack. Let's round down and say I only attack 19 times every 67 seconds.

I need a hit rate of 5.2% or greater to generate more MP than /RDM. Using Hasso gives me an additional 5% hit rate. From SMN main job itself, any accuracy higher than 0.2% is better at MP recovery than SMN/RDM. I'll skip to the end: accuracy of 20% generates 2000MP more per 10 minutes, the same as wearing -10 perp in gear. 40% = -20 perp, and so on, up to cap 90% (don't forget Hasso) = -45 perp.

Yes, it works so well, I use it. It's hard to convince me otherwise, as my MP is always full.

Why did I hit view post lol...

You're such a pathetic troll. That post is so full of GIGANTIC STRAWMAN THE SIZE OF NEW JERSEY that my head's spinning.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

Why did I hit view post lol...

You're such a pathetic troll. That post is so full of GIGANTIC STRAWMAN THE SIZE OF NEW JERSEY that my head's spinning.

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He's not trolling, he honestly thinks he's the only person, with the only way to have unlimited MP. His argument always boils down to "I don't care if you have unlimited MP, I have more."

I know what the strawman is. The strawman is assuming that SMN/RDM and it's almighty Cure 3 is a competent playstyle which all SMN should strive to achieve.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I know what the strawman is. The strawman is assuming that SMN/RDM and it's almighty Cure 3 is a competent playstyle which all SMN should strive to achieve.

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But somehow lolworthy melee is?

Compared to you, the person competing for my party slot, yes.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Compared to you, the person competing for my party slot, yes.

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You're not even in my league little guy. As a skilled support/DD SMN, I'm competing against other SMNs and support roles. As a SMN/SAM, you think you're competing against other SMNs as well as real DDS, when in reality all you're competing for is the dry seat on the short bus.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

You're not even in my league little guy. As a skilled support/DD SMN, I'm competing against other SMNs and support roles. As a SMN/SAM, you think you're competing against other SMNs as well as real DDS, when in reality all you're competing for is the dry seat on the short bus.

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Someone just got told.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

But somehow lolworthy melee is?

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Actually the real funny thing is he has this idea that people actually use smn/rdm. Wat.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

Actually the real funny thing is he has this idea that people actually use smn/rdm. Wat.

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I told him SMN/RDM never run out of MP. That's where he got the idea.

Although I never personally use /RDM, it's either /SCH (AoE Stoneskin w/o blood pact? K.) or, and this is most common, /WHM. I can see the merits of /RDM though. Dispel is a proc that many people look over most of the time.

Ok, lets see. With 100% TP without meleeing outside of Abyssea, your avatar will have costed you...1400 mp to keep out. That is 14 mp per tick perp cost times 100. That 14 mp per tick perp cost is how much your avatar costs at 90 (16 perp) minus the 2 mp Refresh you get from traits. You have no Refresh gear, nor do you have any perp gear, because that stands in the way of your haste, accuracy, and attack. My gear, during that same time, would have netted me an extra 520 MP. Thats 6 MP per tick refresh from the spell, gear, and perp cost down to +1 back, and the +2 horn I use anyway, minus the cost of casting Refresh on myself twice. We are looking at a net difference of 1920 mp between the two. And we haven't even melee'd yet.

OMG guys, a 9 hit build! So average WAR melee can get TP in 9.5 hits, an average SMN melee outside of abyssea can get TP in 13 hits. Inside abyssea, 12 hits. Including Hasso. Got to love the "in terms of accuracy, I have haste, double attack and such." You still wiff a lot more than a WAR. So, lets say 12 swings per 100% TP, that is 36 swings for 300% TP, assuming the 3.38 seconds per swing, it takes you a little over 2 minutes (121.68) to get to 300% TP. But wait, lets add the Regain earring back on. 121.68/3 is 40.56, so lets give that TP for free to Dallas. He needs 259.44 TP to get to 300. 259.44/3.38 = 77 seconds. So, between 77 seconds to 122 seconds is what it takes to get to 300% TP, so lets go to the middle and say...wow, 100 seconds even.

100 seconds for Dallas to get to 300% TP. That is 33 ticks. That is 462 MP wasted on having an avatar out by itself.

Include 4 BPs (for simplicity sake, lets assume all BPs are Predator Claws and Whispering Wind and no Blood Boons) the cost increases by 566 MP. Including the MP cost to keep the avatar out, that is 1028 MP used up.

Now, lets include /RDM to the picture. In 100 seconds I get 158 MP back (6 * 33)-40. Assuming the usage of BPs, I use a total of 408 MP. Not bad. I haven't even used Elemental Siphon yet, haven't even needed it either. 408 MP is about 1/3 of my MP total, so that means I can hold out on using Convert alone for 7 minutes. Sure, I won't ride all the way to back-to-back Converts, but I don't need to use Elemental Siphon more than once between Converts. Which is basically unlimited MP for /RDM too. No Refresh atmas needed.

Dallas, on the other hand, has to melee to keep the avatar out. He uses up 1028 MP just to get 300% TP. Now, lets hope he doesn't get killed by AoE there, cause then he won't be able to keep up the pressure.

Plus, we have that new ability that increase cost to BP sooner. That would mean that Dallas will not be able to get to 300% TP before running out of MP, because that new ability hurts him twice: added cost and added number of BPs.

And I was very generous with giving Dallas 100% TP in 12 hits. Also, no refresh atmas needed to keep MP up.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

Actually the real funny thing is he has this idea that people actually use smn/rdm. Wat.

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I use /RDM for soloing purposes, which is basically the only time I bring out SMN anyway.

Why should I bring SMN to a party if we are not pet burning stuff, and only a few mobs (inside and outside abyssea) would need to be pet burned period (AoEs are too damaging or have really bad, undispelable effects, while the drops don't justify a brew). If something needs killing, I bring out my WAR to 95% of the stuff out there.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Ok, lets see. With 100% TP without meleeing outside of Abyssea, your avatar will have costed you...1400 mp to keep out. That is 14 mp per tick perp cost times 100.

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14 perp cost, less Nash hands, less evoker's ring, less Auto-Refresh 2 = 10 perp cost = 20% melee accuracy. That's why my post exists, to educate you. Since your first assumption was completely ignorant of SMN, I will assume the rest says something about WAR pwning BLM.

It should only take him 8 hits to get 100% actually. Assuming Goading+Rajas+Brutal+White Tathlum+/SAM. 10 w/o all that. Also, it should take him 3.48s per swing, assuming he's at least pulling off 22% Haste, which isn't 23 because of Goading instead of Ninurta's.

All that means, is that instead of 100 seconds to 300%, its 83.52.

*Assuming Hastega and Hasso

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

It should only take him 8 hits to get 100% actually. Assuming Goading+Rajas+Brutal+White Tathlum+/SAM. 10 w/o all that. Also, it should take him 3.48s per swing, assuming he's at least pulling off 22% Haste, which isn't 23 because of Goading instead of Ninurta's.

All that means, is that instead of 100 seconds to 300%, its 83.52.

*Assuming Hastega and Hasso

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I use Tern set instead of Goading for 23% Haste. 3.38 seconds per swing. If you convert Meditate and regain earring into store TP (it's messy if you don't), I think I am at 14.6 effective TP per hit (assuming 100% accuracy). 21 hits to 300% TP. Add in 7% DA, and I come up with 66.3 seconds to reach 300% TP. In perp costs terms, I spend 220 MP to get 1080 MP.

I think Arrabbiata is the new best food for SMN outside of Abyssea, and would knock another 3.1 seconds off.

Even less time needed in Abyssea. (Needless to say, this is overkill.)

BTW: Goading is faster to 300% by 1.3 seconds. Tern Set generates 2% more melee damage and doesn't have +enmity(bad). I wouldn't switch over to Goading until I need more MP... unlikely.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

And I was very generous with giving Dallas 100% TP in 12 hits.

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Maybe he meant "12 swings?"

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I use Tern set instead of Goading for 23% Haste. 3.38 seconds per swing. If you convert Meditate and regain earring into store TP (it's messy if you don't), I think I am at 14.6 effective TP per hit (assuming 100% accuracy). 21 hits to 300% TP. Add in 7% DA, and I come up with 66.3 seconds to reach 300% TP. In perp costs terms, I spend 220 MP to get 1080 MP.

I think Arrabbiata is the new best food for SMN outside of Abyssea, and would knock another 3.1 seconds off.

Even less time needed in Abyssea. (Needless to say, this is overkill.)

BTW: Goading is faster to 300% by 1.3 seconds. Tern Set generates 2% more melee damage and doesn't have +enmity(bad). I wouldn't switch over to Goading until I need more MP... unlikely.



Maybe he meant "12 swings?"

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With Goading you wouldn't have to gimp your food with Arrabbiata, as Red Curry Buns have a much higher attack cap, and you need all you can get.

You also lose out on 8 attack+ 1% DA(Aesir Mantle), and either 10 accuracy, or 5% Crit Rate (I think that the two best options for neck slot would be fully charged Rancor Collar or PCC)

If you had VV and used Rose Strap, since you are probably never, ever, ever going to melee outside abyssea, you could knock down 8 hits to 6 hits with regain moonshade, however, there is a large margin of error since you should be using VV+RR+Apoc, meaning TA and DA will make your 6 hit a 7 or 8 hit. Not that it matters, since your ws does 0 damage, and is only there for maintaining MP. Also, having March would ruin regain making it a for sure 7 hit.

However this is all assuming you keep 1 avatar out for the entire time you are engaged, SEVERELY reducing the utility of SMN. This option (melee SMN) only slightly adds melee DMG at the cost of higher risk, in which case the slot would be better filled by WAR DRG SAM MNK DNC THF (Basically any job meant to get up close) by a long shot.

That's why SMN melee will always be as much of a toy as a ridill is.

Expensive
"Fun"
Useless

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

With Goading you wouldn't have to gimp your food with Arrabbiata, as Red Curry Buns have a much higher attack cap, and you need all you can get.

You also lose out on 8 attack+ 1% DA(Aesir Mantle), and either 10 accuracy, or 5% Crit Rate (I think that the two best options for neck slot would be fully charged Rancor Collar or PCC)

If you had VV and used Rose Strap, since you are probably never, ever, ever going to melee outside abyssea, you could knock down 8 hits to 6 hits with regain moonshade, however, there is a large margin of error since you should be using VV+RR+Apoc, meaning TA and DA will make your 6 hit a 7 or 8 hit. Not that it matters, since your ws does 0 damage, and is only there for maintaining MP. Also, having March would ruin regain making it a for sure 7 hit.

However this is all assuming you keep 1 avatar out for the entire time you are engaged, SEVERELY reducing the utility of SMN. This option (melee SMN) only slightly adds melee DMG at the cost of higher risk, in which case the slot would be better filled by WAR DRG SAM MNK DNC THF (Basically any job meant to get up close) by a long shot.

That's why SMN melee will always be as much of a toy as a ridill is.

Expensive
"Fun"
Useless

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Funny, I've been meleeing for 6 years. Abyssea hasn't been around that long. I spent the last 2 weeks playing outside of Abyssea, meleeing the whole time. It's all safe, except for some event that no one wants gear from.

You are right, I could spend millions on the Rancor Collar. I'm cheap. I'll wait for it to come down in price. The choice is between accuracy (usually capped) and 1% DA, or 1% Haste. The latter wins.

Now then, here's the thing you are missing: there is no benefit to using Myrkr at 100% TP. In fact, tests were showing that L3 aftermath had a higher proc rate than L1 aftermath. Call me superstitious, but the test was convincing enough for me. 300% only. Always. 3*0 is no better than 1*0.

Forget the X-hit builds, I don't need them. Fewer WS means less delay anyway. As for food, SMN base attack isn't high enough to warrant Red Curry Buns. The HP is MUCH higher, and the 5 store TP is much more useful than the extra 0.5% attack (at most, 3 more attack).

As for damage dealt, you are approaching the dangerously deep end of the pool. The numbers are so high that they can't be measured solo. The job is broken without additional hate tools. Many anecdotes, no numbers.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

As for damage dealt, you are approaching the dangerously deep end of the pool. The numbers are so high that they can't be measured solo. The job is broken without additional hate tools. Many anecdotes, no numbers.

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If I knew a Melee SMN with your exact gear, I would parse him.

First on DRK
Then on DRG
Then on BLU
Then on MNK
Then on WAR

I'm certain that Melee SMN is a complete waste when the slot could be filled with one of those, and those are just the DDs I have (Not including SMN and BLM).

I have no idea what you're trying to say about hate tools and jobs being broken though...

Simple. The SMN is supposed to summon powerful beings. Because of the pace of the game, SMN is more powerful than those beings. SMN is broken.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Simple. The SMN is supposed to summon powerful beings. Because of the pace of the game, SMN is more powerful than those beings. SMN is broken.

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So you're saying the player is stronger than the avatars?

It won't happen strictly because of .dat modification.

I really like this idea though. It'd be like a stance; Light Arts/Dark Arts, Afflatus Solace/Afflatus Misery, and Inin/Yonin. Ah, Possession/Dissolution (what we currently do now with the summoner and the avatar in two separate bodies).

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I'm certain that Melee SMN is a complete waste when the slot could be filled with one of those, and those are just the DDs I have (Not including SMN and BLM).

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Melee SMNs are the same waste as CORs not subbing WHM. Do they really think their pitiful ranged attacks is going to help the party? It only feeds TP. If we wanted a party member shooting, we'd invite a RNG.

Case in point. You can't choose your arguments for what you want to say. Either COR/WHM and SMN/WHM are the only alternatives, or both can be played in a more damage oriented way.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

So you're saying the player is stronger than the avatars?

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Well yes, that was proven with number crunching. Currently the player is capable of a significantly higher damage output than the summon (largely because of the BP recast). If melee SMN has done anything especially good, it's further illustrated just how weak the avatars are. The very fact that even if the master melees the damage is still way too low says that SMN is just not strong enough (outside of some special, uncommonly used purposes)

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Do they really think their pitiful ranged attacks is going to help the party? It only feeds TP. If we wanted a party member shooting, we'd invite a RNG.

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Any decent COR shooting is not doing "pitiful ranged attacks" and their weapon skills are not far off a RNG. CORs do not have to sub WHM to be effective.

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Either COR/WHM and SMN/WHM are the only alternatives, or both can be played in a more damage oriented way.

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Both can be played in a more damage oriented way. Though one happens to be obviously better than the other.

Thanks Leon, I forgot about /SAM STP+15. Thanks for the corrected numbers.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

(largely because of the BP recast)

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The only reason why a summoner with an emp staff has higher numbers than an avatar meleeing next to them and using BPs also is because of the ODD on the staff. Shame that the avatar doesn't benefit from the ODD, then the numbers would be for the avatar, not the summoner swinger. Nirvana, however, is doing it right.

My point in my post was that the MP usage from a melee SMN is horrendous. Dallas, I saw your melee gear, and you didn't have Evoker's ring at all. Nash hands, I forgot to include in the perp cost, sorry. You saved yourself 33 MP from your 1k+ usage, so it puts you just at...1k usage. Didn't help much.

There is a huge difference between MP usage between the two of us. The time you get enough TP to use a WS without having to use any BPs or meleeing, you would have used all of your MP pool. I would have gained half mine in that time. And neither of us have used any BPs at all. Include BPs, and you have to swing your staff in order to keep your avatar out.

Even if you /SAM, you would still be out of MP before you get your vaunted 300% TP needed to get, what, 60% of your MP back?

Also, what have you melee soloed on to make swinging a staff worth it, like you claim you do all the time? I don't know what party would invite you to swing a staff, unless that party is full of perle SAMs and pink MNKs.

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There is a huge difference between MP usage between the two of us.

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No, there isn't, because I don't really use a lot of specialized DD gear. I still have a lot of perpetuation on. For me, meleeing is mainly speeding up solo play. The only reason you'll really see me meleeing in a party is for skill up; I still get to use the empy WS even when not meleeing, because I prefer using DD atmas for predator claws over using MAB atmas for a magic pact. You are highly overestimating the cost of keeping an avatar out for ~2 minutes.

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The time you get enough TP to use a WS without having to use any BPs or meleeing, you would have used all of your MP pool.

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No, you wouldn't. But again, it's not an issue because I don't go full on DD gear. I'm not Dallas, and I'm not trying to pretend I can compete with Ukon WARs. I also feel I still need WHM sub to ensure that I don't need to stop between fights. When you realize that you're only meleeing for your own benefit when it suits you and not to try to be the best DD in the world, you end up performing probably better than a guy like Dallas that probably doesn't even play the game.

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Also, what have you melee soloed on to make swinging a staff worth it, like you claim you do all the time? I don't know what party would invite you to swing a staff, unless that party is full of perle SAMs and pink MNKs.

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As I said, I don't usually use SMN in a group, except on a "for fun" basis, but when you're in a cruor/time/exp farm, no one really gives a rats behind what you do as long as you're not AFK or a WHM that isn't curing.

Sorry Al, most of that post was in response to Dallas.

I quoted you for reference.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

So you're saying the player is stronger than the avatars?

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Al covered most of it. SMN does more damage overall than the avatar. Yes, Myrkr damage is 0 DMG and SMN is still stronger. At any point the avatar does not land a solid BP on the enemy, the SMN is going to immediately get hate. With the BP, a good -enmity build will keep the SMN safe. -enmity is available in every non-haste slot.

This problem has existed for me for 4 years. I retired Carby back in 2007. I retired Fenrir (weak BPs) in 2008. Garuda became a problem with OA3 Yantok in 2010. Now with Hvergelmir, every hit pulls hate, even with /WHM and perp gear. We don't have a stronger avatar.

While everyone else sat around crying how weak the job is, I doubled in strength. Yet, here we are, in a thread asking for stronger melee SMN buffs. I'm the only one who keeps laughing.

I've always said the avatar needs a buff.

I don't agree with the idea, though it's cool.

Avatar fixes are the only solution that will do anything. I'm hoping SMN gets a passive adjustment to the timer:

Use a BP before timer is ready, counter increments by 1. 10 is highest counter value.
BP timer is ready, counter resets to 1.

BP cost = base cost * (100% * (counter)) * blood boon adj

Use BPs at will. Weaker physical BPs can be spammed, higher level ones are *very* expensive.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Al covered most of it. SMN does more damage overall than the avatar. Yes, Myrkr damage is 0 DMG and SMN is still stronger. At any point the avatar does not land a solid BP on the enemy, the SMN is going to immediately get hate. With the BP, a good -enmity build will keep the SMN safe. -enmity is available in every non-haste slot.

This problem has existed for me for 4 years. I retired Carby back in 2007. I retired Fenrir (weak BPs) in 2008. Garuda became a problem with OA3 Yantok in 2010. Now with Hvergelmir, every hit pulls hate, even with /WHM and perp gear. We don't have a stronger avatar.

While everyone else sat around crying how weak the job is, I doubled in strength. Yet, here we are, in a thread asking for stronger melee SMN buffs. I'm the only one who keeps laughing.

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If avatars are weaker than you, why summon them in the first place? Why not go full melee mage route and become somebody who completely depends on swinging a staff for damage?

Mind you, the only reason why you "can" do more damage than an avatar is ODD on your staff. Take that away, and the avatars WILL do more damage than you. Swinging a staff for 100~150 damage while your avatar does 100~125 damage per hit will make you do more damage, but when you start using BPs, the avatar will do more damage than you over time.

600 per hit damage is a lie. That is crit hit + ODD damage. If you consider that every time you swing a staff and hit for 600 each time, then I will consider that every time I swing a GA and hit for 4,500 each time. You do about 100 damage per hit as I do 600 damage per hit, without added help. That is the way things are.

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Mind you, the only reason why you "can" do more damage than an avatar is ODD on your staff. Take that away, and the avatars WILL do more damage than you.

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Not quite, actually; the avatar was found to be about 1/3 of the total damage IIRC (if using full out melee gear) Meaning removing the ODD would bring it to about even.

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That is crit hit + ODD damage.

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It might not be a lie against skeletons; I've had Double Damage crits near 1k without a melee set on skeletons. (of course any other job can do 1200+ DD crits with neutral damage types)

He's exaggerating as usual, but a little less ridiculously this time.

Regardless, any SMN who does melee gets the idea to because the avatars just aren't strong enough. the SUMMONs need a boost. BP faster, better melee damage, faster delay, they need a general power increase across the board.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Avatar fixes are the only solution that will do anything. I'm hoping SMN gets a passive adjustment to the timer:

Use a BP before timer is ready, counter increments by 1. 10 is highest counter value.
BP timer is ready, counter resets to 1.

BP cost = base cost * (100% * (counter)) * blood boon adj

Use BPs at will. Weaker physical BPs can be spammed, higher level ones are *very* expensive.

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That's not a bad idea. Even if it is from Dallas. WTF DID I JUST SAY

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

That's not a bad idea. Even if it is from Dallas. WTF DID I JUST SAY

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Yeah, but he thinks that his idea will be only beneficial for him, and that no other Summoner shall be able to benefit from his idea. WTF DID YOU JUST SAY????

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Yeah, but he thinks that his idea will be only beneficial for him, and that no other Summoner shall be able to benefit from his idea. WTF DID YOU JUST SAY????

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Honestly if that get's implemented. BRD+RDM+SMN+SMN+SMN+SMN would be... pretty damn decent.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Honestly if that get's implemented. BRD+RDM+SMN+SMN+SMN+SMN would be... pretty damn decent.

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That's already decent as is. Most people don't realize, but take away procs, and a party of SMNs can take down most everything.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

That's already decent as is. Most people don't realize, but take away procs, and a party of SMNs can take down most everything.

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DPS in comparison to BRD COR(Assuming we have 5 hittable WARs) WAR WAR WAR SMN(ALEXANDER I CHOOSE YOU!) is... utterly pale.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

DPS in comparison to BRD COR(Assuming we have 5 hittable WARs) WAR WAR WAR SMN(ALEXANDER I CHOOSE YOU!) is... utterly pale.

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True. I'm not saying that SMN only setups will always prevail over other setups, but SMN only setups are generally the most safe routes to take, although now, the risk is very limited, so if anything, SMNs should be complaining that the one thing in a party setup that they excel at has been taken away. Oddly enough, not one SMN has said a word....