Kill the PS2 limitations end of the Dark Ages Era

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Originally Posted by rog

Sure sounded like sarcasm to me. If not, then you are wrong, because of the statement "'PS2 Limitations' was never used as an excuse by the Dev team to not add something in the past".

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No Sarcasm here. Though i can understand your skepticism. I just had to really look at the argument.

You've made it quite clear, with rational argument, that the PS2 has never been, and will never be, a problem when it comes to this game, and the game will likely close before we ever reach a point where any PS2 Limitations would stop or hinder our content.

I am not saying the ps2 does not hinder the game. It does. Just not in any meaningful way. Would i kill for >80 inventory space? Hell yes. Unfortunately that is currently impossible, without either dropping the ps2, or major, major rehaul of the ps2 code to save some memory (and even then, would probably only get us a few extra spaces). The auto translate is another obvious example. There are many small things that the ps2 prevents us from having. However, it absolutely does not ever prevent us from getting new content (ie zones, mobs, gear, quests, etc). Ever.

The game will not suddenly having 100x better graphics, or fully optimized code just because SE dropped support for the ps2. In fact, we would get neither of those. Both would take far too much effort, and would not be done. How do i know they would not be done? Because they could be done right now, while still supporting the ps2. But it has not been done. Because it is not worth doing. If ps2 support was dropped, we would have more inventory, more AT phrases, and some other small things the next update. There would never be a major change.

I know, Which is exactly why I'm now agreeing with you. After attempting to find anything meaningfully left out i could not.

You're preaching to the choir right now.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

Thought just hit me....wonder if the 360 puts games on the drive like a PS2 does (an image file and not the actual files). If so...it could run into a similar space issue there too.

At this point, their only option may very well be a whole new game that is only on PC, maybe PS3 (Blu-Ray support, it should be able to handle up to 25GB partitions). Guess that's what they were hoping 14 was going to be as they made the effort to tie in the familiar faces and such. What they should have done though is just a continuation of Vanadiel, incorporating new story lines exploring more of the left out lore like the Mithra and Galka's and such. Allow you to import your toons somehow--maybe a lot of the gear wouldn't translate, maybe just specific sets (AF's, Relics, etc.--RE stuff) and your gil. That would have been a good way to take us past 75 instead of the abyssea route they took.

But anyway... what's done is done.

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I've opened the files myself on the 360. They are in about about 10-13 files including the playonline stuff.
However, they aren't image files they are just basic files for 360 format and if you have the right program you can easily export all there data and it's similar to the PC.

PC users have been having to upgrade their hardware to play games since the beginning of gaming. There is no reason SE couldn't team up with sony and just make a true PS3 version of FFXI then basically say "we need all you PS2 users to upgrade to PS3"(which you can actually upgrade the harddrive) That way they can still play the way they are used to.

We don't need FFXIV graphics to enjoy this game, I just want more content that isn't some lame addon. If the Jps love the game they'll do it without a problem, PC users have been having to get new hard drives, video cards, RAM, sometimes totally new systems which cost a lot more then a PS3.

So i think SE should just make it playable on PS3 that would probably help a lot to start off with.

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PC users have been having to upgrade their hardware to play games since the beginning of gaming. There is no reason SE couldn't team up with sony and just make a true PS3 version of FFXI then basically say "we need all you PS2 users to upgrade to PS3"(which you can actually upgrade the harddrive) That way they can still play the way they are used to.

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Money. Sony will not allow them to simply port it to the ps3, and even if they did, once they drop ps2 support, many would not be able to upgrade to the ps3 (or would not), and they would lose more money.

Anyone notice how fast an official reply was posted about future expansions (not this year).

They haven't said anything about not dropping PS2 support, makes you wonder...

They haven't said anything about dropping it either. Meaningless speculation.

It's not just PS2. It's mostly the fact that this thing was coded ages ago. I don't know if anyone else has noticed but there's been alot of "we've asked the dev, but due to the coding..." In short, FFXI would need to be completely remade from the ground up to be able to do a massive upgrade. That would require alot more people than they have and alot more money.

I have no idea what ps2 limitations are, and how people are freaking out about it. (can someone please explain it to me, i've been gone for 4 years)

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Originally Posted by Miiyo

It's not just PS2. It's mostly the fact that this thing was coded ages ago. I don't know if anyone else has noticed but there's been alot of "we've asked the dev, but due to the coding..." In short, FFXI would need to be completely remade from the ground up to be able to do a massive upgrade. That would require alot more people than they have and alot more money.

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I think they would of been a head if they cut the support very early on FFXIV and recode ffxi.

It wouldn't really take more money to recode ffxi, it would take time and lots of it. It's not like their staff would increase or they would work more time than they do now. They would however have to devote a large portion of the dev team to reworking the engine over new content. The only real cost to it would be the players who would quit due to the game being stale. Since we'd probably see half a year to a year's worth of gameplay with a lack of major updates.

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Originally Posted by Miiyo

It's not just PS2. It's mostly the fact that this thing was coded ages ago. I don't know if anyone else has noticed but there's been alot of "we've asked the dev, but due to the coding..." In short, FFXI would need to be completely remade from the ground up to be able to do a massive upgrade. That would require alot more people than they have and alot more money.

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They moved most of the people on XI's dev. team to XIV, which made me really upset that they did so. I was thinking that they instead should've hired more hands and scouted for more people experienced in next-gen technology, but it seems as though SE is reusing personnel within the company all of the time. I'm pretty sure this was true in XIII and Versus XIII, as well, though someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, when you're running an online MMO, I don't know about anyone else, but "dev system resources" should never be an issue, anywhere, anytime. People pay the company that hosts the game to play it and for newer advanced features. To pay for a game and ask the developers on a forum dedicated for SUGGESTIONS for future content and fixes and such and have the dev. team say it's not possible really makes me wonder why I continue to play XI and XIV, even. IMO, there's not much to expand on XI other than reusing old existing areas and equipment, because, as along as the dev. team is as restricted and apparently small as it is, XI won't ever evolve past what it is, currently.

In the end, I think that XIV failed where XI succeeded, and they want to save their precious numbered title in the series and not have it go to waste. They rely on XI's staff that made the game what it is and leave XI with a minimal amount of manpower.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

Thought just hit me....wonder if the 360 puts games on the drive like a PS2 does (an image file and not the actual files). If so...it could run into a similar space issue there too.

At this point, their only option may very well be a whole new game that is only on PC, maybe PS3 (Blu-Ray support, it should be able to handle up to 25GB partitions). Guess that's what they were hoping 14 was going to be as they made the effort to tie in the familiar faces and such. What they should have done though is just a continuation of Vanadiel, incorporating new story lines exploring more of the left out lore like the Mithra and Galka's and such. Allow you to import your toons somehow--maybe a lot of the gear wouldn't translate, maybe just specific sets (AF's, Relics, etc.--RE stuff) and your gil. That would have been a good way to take us past 75 instead of the abyssea route they took.

But anyway... what's done is done.

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PS2 doesn't put games on as a disc image, they are actually files. It's just that the file system wasn't readable by homebrew until last year. It's the home brew hard drive loaders that copy games as images, and even then it's still the files from the discs.

Problems with the PS2 file system are that partitions must be a multiple of 128 MB in size, and don't seem to be able to be larger than 8 GB or so per partition (the hard drive loaders can install dual-layer 8.5 GB DVDs to a partition, so the limit is likely a little higher), and the system can't see more than 137 GB of drive space (the rest just goes to waste on a larger drive) without homebrew modification. They don't make hard drives that small anymore, and IDE drives are now rare and only in 320, 500, and 750 GB sizes that I can find.

Games on PS2 with official HDD support for installation installed at least partial files to the drive to reduce load times. PSBBN has a bunch of directories, and can store music and picture files for playback in the interface. It even had an option to change the interface language, though the Japanese language pack was all that was ever released for it.

One of the reasons FFXI was developed for PS2 first, it was the first true MMORPG to ever be released for a console (it beat out EQOA's release date when you look at the JP release date of May 16th 2002). The PC version was created to handle the large number of Americans that play such games on PC, Japanese gamers tend to game more on consoles than PC, and thier PC games tend to be visual novels or such. They were actually attempting to have a simultaneous NA and JP release on PS2 before releasing a PC version, but SCEA withheld the HDD required for the release, so they just went on with the JP version. We got a delayed PC version because they wanted PS2 to be the primary platform in both countries, and so they held out for an NA PS2 release until financial incentives required an NA PC release.

There were other console-only MMORPGs, one of which I can think of is Nobunaga's Ambition Online, which is still running last I checked. I wonder if they're running into PS2 limitations. SE also has to account for JP PS2 users playing both, and how much hard drive space each game must take has to leave room for offline HDD-capable games too. Japan had more than 40 GB worth of HDD support, while NA didn't hit that much. PSBBN also takes up 2-3 GB if that is what is running on the system.

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Originally Posted by CrystalWeapon

It wouldn't really take more money to recode ffxi, it would take time and lots of it. It's not like their staff would increase or they would work more time than they do now. They would however have to devote a large portion of the dev team to reworking the engine over new content. The only real cost to it would be the players who would quit due to the game being stale. Since we'd probably see half a year to a year's worth of gameplay with a lack of major updates.

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sorry for cliche quote ( and made it self to wow at that)

time is money, friend.

cant they make the game work on PS3 wont that remove the limitations?

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Originally Posted by Rambus

sorry for cliche quote ( and made it self to wow at that)

time is money, friend.

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I said it wouldn't take more money than what they're already paying their staff on a daily basis. It wouldn't be a matter of hiring more workers or paying overtime to recode XI. It would be, as I said in my post, a matter of not pissing off current players. To recode XI would mean they would have to halt a majority of their work on developing new content for XI.

They stated that they cannot move the game to the PS3 because of the architecture of the PS3. Simply porting over the game from the Xbox 360 will not do either, as most games that do so require more work that developers simply do not have the time nor patience for, hence the PS3 version of certain games lacking features/quality when compared to the 360 version.

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Originally Posted by hordecore

cant they make the game work on PS3 wont that remove the limitations?

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No, it won't, because it would be emulated PS2 code. There is zero chance of totally rebuilding the game to utilize the PS3's capabilities. That's what FFXIV was supposed to be for.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, it won't, because it would be emulated PS2 code. There is zero chance of totally rebuilding the game to utilize the PS3's capabilities. That's what FFXIV was supposed to be for.

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They do not need to totally rebuild it, a quick port would work.

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Originally Posted by rog

They do not need to totally rebuild it, a quick port would work.

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This. Unfortuneatley, they are too bogged down in trying to fix XIV and trying to keep XI alive to pay for it. Taking people off of these tasks to build a new wrapper for PS3 and then assigning resources to support it would delay other projects, which would eventually cost them more money in the long run (delayed revenues = lost profits). IF this were to happen, it would be after things settle down and they have resources available to throw at it.

Se should just do what they always do with flops like FFVI. Eat it, pretend it doesn't exist and move on.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Se should just do what they always do with flops like FFVI. Eat it, pretend it doesn't exist and move on.

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Did you mean to say FFXIV or really meant FFVI.. I'm confused..

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Originally Posted by Joslyn

Did you mean to say FFXIV or really meant FFVI.. I'm confused..

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Lisdexic fingers. ^^;
Can't have a 16 until PS4. lol

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Originally Posted by Luso

They stated that they cannot move the game to the PS3 because of the architecture of the PS3.

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Well that's what they said but the real reason is probably Sony's policy regarding PS2 to PS3 ports. Sony requires that PS2 games ported to the PS3 must receive a graphics update. It doesn't have to be state of the art in regards to PS3 games but it has to have increased resolution, improved textures and improved model geometry. Sony judges the requirements on a case by case basis but at the very least it has to have improved resolution and textures. Ico and Shadow of the Collusus have scraped by only with improved textures, shaders and resolution due to the graphics quality of the original games for example. Judging from the PC version Sony would probably want improved zone and model geometry on FFXI.

SE probably didn't want to publicly say they they are unwilling to make an improved PS3 version of FFXI because it would look bad so they said "it would be too hard" instead.

Remember when SE said that they had talked to someone at Sony about porting FFXI but that that person quit (and they didn't talk to anyone else?) I bet what was really going on is that they were trying to negotiate a direct port and Sony wouldn't budge on the issue so talks broke down.

I like how my 3k$ PC show 29 period FPS ;)
Btw did you saw how FFXI look on a PS2 ?!
I'm sure the " I like to play it with PS2 instead of PC/Xbox/Ps3, you cheater" community cannot be so big

Problem is.....about 30-40% of the FFXI community plays on PS2s so by dropping that they potentially lose 30-40% of their profits....and sadly....money speaks louder than players.....

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Well that's what they said but the real reason is probably Sony's policy regarding PS2 to PS3 ports. Sony requires that PS2 games ported to the PS3 must receive a graphics update. It doesn't have to be state of the art in regards to PS3 games but it has to have increased resolution, improved textures and improved model geometry. Sony judges the requirements on a case by case basis but at the very least it has to have improved resolution and textures. Ico and Shadow of the Collusus have scraped by only with improved textures, shaders and resolution due to the graphics quality of the original games for example. Judging from the PC version Sony would probably want improved zone and model geometry on FFXI.

SE probably didn't want to publicly say they they are unwilling to make an improved PS3 version of FFXI because it would look bad so they said "it would be too hard" instead.

Remember when SE said that they had talked to someone at Sony about porting FFXI but that that person quit (and they didn't talk to anyone else?) I bet what was really going on is that they were trying to negotiate a direct port and Sony wouldn't budge on the issue so talks broke down.

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Yeah, I only stated that they said they couldn't due to the way the PS3 is. But, I don't think it's impossible or, for that matter, even that hard when it comes to ports.

I'm sure SE stated it because they believe XI is really on its last laurels and don't want to waste development time and money on XI. However, I still think XI is doing better than XIV in terms of player base; sure, XI has had many a year to grow, but it's been getting fewer and fewer players joining and the amount of players leaving is probably more than the influx of players coming in. XIV had its chance, and yet, XI was actually not that bad when it launched, IIRC.

Actually if you really had to compare, XI was just as bad as XIV at launch. The thing is though, we halfway expected them to have something decent to sink our teeth into with the previous experience they built up off of FFXI the past 8 years.

yeah remember we got ffxi refined, it was a year old and on first expansion for NA comp. FFXI before that had a lot of issues (a stack of arrows was 12, whms was OP in nuking lol).

the thing with ffxiv though is simply this, you have the experience and technology not to make a game worse than your first one. ( i drought ffxi even at start had all the huge lag issues ffxiv has with commands.) Like all the stupid excessive menu selection. They took that from FFXI and made it worse, why I have no clue. Saying “we learned from the problems of FFXI” and turn around and not hold that up is a big let down < biggest problem for FFXIV lanuch. that is something they cannot take back or fix, it is also very hard to recover from a bad rep, really should of cut the losses when they could. ( open beta is when i would drop the game)

i wonder if im not the only that wouldn't mind them delaying some updates/patches to redo the code and upgrade it for ps3 standards, and then allow people who play it on ps3 via emulation download a ps3 version on pol (since we do that on a clean install anyway) and then have a batch update for pc and xbox 360, the only thing i can think of is have a questionnaire on log in or somewhere that everyone can find for a few months and see who plays on ps2 and has a ps3 or has a ps2 and wouldn't mind just switching to xbox or pc and them giving them a voucher or something to change console (a save 10$ goes a long way especially since i think i can buy a new copy on pc for 20 or so dollars already)

while a survey is going on they can develop updates still though, but first focus on what the different structures would be and then implement them as the new structure when they change over...

that fixes some of the issues, and you wouldn't be hiring or paying employees extra and the people who'd be willing to convert and the people already playing on other consoles i'm sure would easily agree with the update delay

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Originally Posted by Swords

Actually if you really had to compare, XI was just as bad as XIV at launch. The thing is though, we halfway expected them to have something decent to sink our teeth into with the previous experience they built up off of FFXI the past 8 years.

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True but the MMO market its alot different now, many fantasy MMO already failed shortly after launch ( some still open but
with no more support and with just 1-2 servers ). FFXI got lot's of " improvements" along the way.. remember when WoW came out ? first impression, rewiews, adv, community are needed to support more then a year of a "beta-released" game.
FFXI where lucky, but the MMO market was still young, i dont think that can be repeated considering titles like AoC Rift Vanguard and many more already failed :\

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Originally Posted by Dreimar

FFXI where lucky, but the MMO market was still young

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Not to mention brand recognition.

I am sure i am not the only one who bought it for no reason other than the final fantasy label.

I will buy a version of FFXI for PC once SE says there gonna destroy PS2 users or start not bringing content to PS2 users anymore. Make new expation pack with 360,ps3,pc only in mind. If you don like it you can ask sony to make a larger drive for the ps2 users lol... goodluck.

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Originally Posted by rog

Not to mention brand recognition.

I am sure i am not the only one who bought it for no reason other than the final fantasy label.

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yes i bought ffxi because it was FF name, I had no clue about MNOs back then or how they worked.

FFXI was pretty refind for NA release too, it was out for like a year in japan where it had a lot of basic issues.

FFXI at NA release was WAY more refined then FFXIV was for it's time. this age you cannot release games with basic issues (command lag and so on)

even back when ffxi was new it was more tolerated because the market was newer and less competition ( to my knowledge like I said I had no clue on MNOs back then, in my word FFXI was the first MNO out there). So FFXI was a real second life when it came out, and I thought it was normal for a MNO be like that (being my only one so I do not know better)
but now you have more games on the market you have to really show "buy my game over xxx" WoW for example showed NMO can be made for people with less time.SE then steps up and says “we are making a more casual, more action oreanted game in FFXIV. FFXIV failed HARD to live up what SE said. The action is slow, the grind fest is way slower then FFXI. So after failing to live up to it’s word people became a lot less forgiving this time around. SEs only hope in turning that around if people give it a second chance to do so at PS3 release. I think SEs rep is on the line with this so called ps3 release. I would not risk that; I would have scraped the game at beta and failing to fix basic things. Too big issue to risk, should of hold off making it official release. SE rep in how they hold games, like me I am disliking the customer support so i am less willing to buy SE titles. (I only bought ffxiv to meet up with frineds, nothing else, had to do nothing with the game. people do not play it so i have no reason to play it)

sry ill never play on any other console, i've invested too much money into the current setup of my entertainment center to go buy an extra few computers to play this game on. My vote is no. This game started with the idea of putting it on the PS2, thats the way it shall stay. I cant think of a single online game that ever dropped support for a particular console due to its limitations. all mmo's die eventually, its just a matter of deal with it or get the hell out.

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Originally Posted by MercenaryX

all mmo's die eventually, its just a matter of deal with it or get the hell out.

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EVE Online has gradually *increased* it's subscribers over the years due to CCP periodically updating the game's technology to prevent stagnation.

i say port the game to PSP version even PSP got better graphics than PS2

PS2 support will be dropped in a few years - simply because the only available PS2s be slims or the PS2 HDD will become unavailable when people need to replace hardware.

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Originally Posted by Xellith

PS2 support will be dropped in a few years - simply because the only available PS2s be slims or the PS2 HDD will become unavailable when people need to replace hardware.

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Unfortunately, I think they are still stamping out the fat bodies for JP only sales......