The importance of job points

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Originally Posted by Camiie

I'm not ignoring what he said above it, but that deals with current content. What I'm looking at is the future, and unless they make CP far more available, then the future looks bleak. If you don't believe me then the fact that someone like Byrth has a similar notion should tell you something.

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If I understand Byrth's opinion correctly(feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), he was saying "The gap between hardcore and casual player's performance shouldn't be huge". Basically he was against the fact that JP makes such a huge difference in terms of performance. He didn't say a thing about "we should be able to cap JP faster" unless I missed something.

If I understand your opinion correctly(again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), you were asking SE to lower JP cost, making every category faster to cap, thus shortening the game's lifespan.

If that's the case then your opinion is not the same as Byrth's opinion at all. Byrth's opinion still keeps hardcore busy with stuff to grind, it's just that hardcore player's performance isn't that much ahead. Your opinion is to ask every hardcore to sit in town and have nothing to do because everything is faster to cap.

My opinion is compatible with Camiie's. They're just two approaches to solving the same problem

My view is that if something is important for performance, it should be equally accessible to hardcore and casual players. The more SE puts in to the job point system, the more important they are for performance. Back when JPs were just an extra 30 INT for your Avatar during Astral Flow, I didn't really care that they were hard to get. However, now JPs are an extra ~20 MAcc, gear access, and 30 INT for your Avatar during AF. They become more important every update and SE is clearly not planning to stop.

Thus they need to either make it easier for casuals to get job points or keep job point boosts trivial.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Thus they need to either make it easier for casuals to get job points or keep job point boosts trivial.

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If that's the case then your opinion isn't the same as Camiie's.

What I wanted to say was, those 2 approaches can solve the same problem, but it would lead to very different results. The former approach shortens the game's lifespan, because hardcore would sit in town with nothing to do if JP are too fast to cap. The latter retains the game's life span, hardcore gets the option to spend their time, and casual won't be too far behind them. I'm against the idea of 10k CP per JP, but I don't mind if hardcore has 1% better performance than casuals, as long as they have something to spend their time on if they want to.

How the hell do you play 30mins a day and get 100s of JP?

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Originally Posted by Tidis

How the hell do you play 30mins a day and get 100s of JP?

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Version-Update

Job point was out since march 2014, now it's almost 2015. ATM I can solo over 90k CP/hr without double CP campaign bonus, add double campaign bonus, do the math?

I also said "around 30 min a day", so that's avg number, sometimes I play less than 30 min, sometimes I play more than 30 min. If I play less than 30 min I just solo, if I have more than 30 min of playtime I save them for double CP campaign or join CP pt.

I solo for CP 98% of time so I don't have to spend time on /shout nor camp for /shout, when I log on I went straight to camp instead of afk in town doing nothing, then I log off near camp and log back on the right spot so I save time walking to the camp. If someone else occupied my camp I just log off, do rl stuff then come back later.

265 days / 2 = 132.5 hours at 3 JP/hr = ~400 job points

Assuming that "hundreds" means >200, tossing in a few double campaigns, and assuming the other things you're saying are true, then you've spent about half your FFXI playtime since the patch soloing job points. That sounds miserable. Just set up a good CP party a few times during the double CP campaign and get >10 JP/hr.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

265 days / 2 = 132.5 hours at 3 JP/hr = ~400 job points

Assuming that "hundreds" means >200, tossing in a few double campaigns, and assuming the other things you're saying are true, then you've spent about half your FFXI playtime since the patch soloing job points. That sounds miserable. Just set up a good CP party a few times during the double CP campaign and get >10 JP/hr.

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Lol you think I haven't try CP pt?

Most of the time I actually get around the same CP/hr in pt as solo, sometimes less CP/hr in a pt. I need to look for ppl and DD that won't have acc issue, I need to wait for ppl afk/disband mid run and so on. I also don't play on NA prime time, that makes the process of making a pt takes much longer. More than half of the DD from PUG parse terribly low as well. In the long run a CP pt is actually not more efficient than solo, for my timezone at least. In reality CP pt is often not >10 JP/hr because the time it takes to deal with /shout counts. Not to mention the risk of competition......in a pt if the camp was occupied we'd have to change camp, the time it takes to find/move to another camp counts. If I solo I can just log off, do rl stuff and come back later. IMO it's just a more efficient way to use my time.

I don't mind spending half of my time solo for CP anyways, I have pretty much every gear I want in this game except 1 unity NM drop, afterglow and better augment on JSE cap.

If I don't spend half of my playtime solo for CP, I'd spend half of my playtime on building an afterglow or do incursion and get nothing...in that case I'd rather grind for CP instead. There are simply not much else to do in this game besides CP grind anyways.

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Originally Posted by Afania

If that's the case then your opinion isn't the same as Camiie's.

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I'm completely on board with him.

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What I wanted to say was, those 2 approaches can solve the same problem, but it would lead to very different results. The former approach shortens the game's lifespan, because hardcore would sit in town with nothing to do if JP are too fast to cap.

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Some people are always going to consume content faster than the norm. You can't design an integral aspect of character development with them in mind. That ruins the game for everyone who isn't like them. What you do for the rapid consumers is produce prestige items that they can put all their excess game time toward. That gives them something to do without putting something simple like leveling up out of the reach of the common man.

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The latter retains the game's life span, hardcore gets the option to spend their time, and casual won't be too far behind them. I'm against the idea of 10k CP per JP, but I don't mind if hardcore has 1% better performance than casuals, as long as they have something to spend their time on if they want to.

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And that would be fine, and that's the direction that SE seemed to be going in at the outset. Now they're throwing in more and more bonuses and even access to certain armor and soon spells as well. I'd like to let them know how terrible an idea that is before things get out of hand.

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Originally Posted by Kensagaku

Bwuh? They need to ask the community for better camps then. Just recently I've been shown a camp in the Woh subgates that is quite handy; using two Capacity ring charges (one right as I was logging off to maintain the buff but tick down the cooldown, one after the first wore), on my DRG/RDM I had gotten two JPs in about 50 minutes, give or take.

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OK so where exactly is this Woh Gates camp then? The thing with the community is that many of its members are extremely loathe to share their camps with others. You can ask but you'll generally get silence, ridicule, or lectured on how the secret of the camp must be kept to maintain its integrity.

JP are not as hard to get as the naysayers here are making out; job point bonuses are not as great as they're making out either. You can farm JPs in your spare time if you're not a hardcore player.

The funny part is merit points weren't that easy when they were new and i never saw people complain about it like this (for these reasons at least).

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

JP are not as hard to get as the naysayers here are making out; job point bonuses are not as great as they're making out either. You can farm JPs in your spare time if you're not a hardcore player.

The funny part is merit points weren't that easy when they were new and i never saw people complain about it like this (for these reasons at least).

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You could go on an optimal job and get merit points for any job, there was only ever a limited scope of jobs that got invited to merit point parties back in the day but because the merit points you got carried across jobs, it didn't matter.

Which only perpetuated bad job balance, since it wasn't critical that they make the less popular jobs able to compete in parties. Now that we have job points job balance is more important and they are, to some degree, taking steps to improve it.

Also you're forgetting that merit points aren't all job specific, the bulk of your merit points are spent on boosts that apply regardless of job.

Job points, in combination with ilvl gear, are intended as "leveling up past 99". You couldn't earn EXP on one job to level up another now, could you? How did those jobs you say can't get job points level up? If you can get to level 99 on the job, you can earn job points on the job. I see no problem here.

@Camiie
more than likely he is talking about one of the 3 butterfly camps, but unless your a drg or a thf with a really boss acc set and nearly full 119 gear you should not go there, but for where it is, just enter woh gates from bev 4 in Marjami, head ummm i think north past the frog camp(which is actually a great camp if you can sleep them) tell you run into a big room full of acrux(great blm and smn camp) and wide scan one of the rooms joined to that one should be full of efts and butterflys, stretched over 3 rooms, that is the camp you would be looking for. Now if you have a party tho, there is a great camp in woh gates basement near the highwing helm nms spawn point, room full of big bats that have oddly low evasion for there level a bit of def tho, and its kinda funny there cp chain duration is waaaay longer than exp chain duration, and it can build quite high i can rember but i think it was double cp at the time, and was getting 2.5k a kill once the chain got a rolling so i guess normal they would be 1.2k, throw a cor in there and wait for another double cp tho, and yea....

On the issues of gaining cp tho, i would prefer more events like incursion were you get alot of CP simply doing the event, i do think nms in incursion and any new events should probably give half a point at least, and the megaboss like a full point.

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Originally Posted by Tidis

You could go on an optimal job and get merit points for any job, there was only ever a limited scope of jobs that got invited to merit point parties back in the day but because the merit points you got carried across jobs, it didn't matter.

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How many jobs are we honestly left with anymore that aren't capable of performing suitably well on essentially trash mobs? I've found myself surprised by most jobs as of late really. They don't all have to perform at a Sam-SC-machine level, if anything, having such a perfected setup hurts you as you end up clearing rooms before respawns roll around, killing your CP chain.

Even club and staff wielding jobs can put on a 119 weapon, and use their merit or other good WS and do sufficient damage to chain mobs that any average person would consider soloing. offensive trusts may not be great but they can still help.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

JP are not as hard to get as the naysayers here are making out; job point bonuses are not as great as they're making out either. You can farm JPs in your spare time if you're not a hardcore player.

The funny part is merit points weren't that easy when they were new and i never saw people complain about it like this (for these reasons at least).

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So you really don't see any differences in the way the two systems work that would cause people to not mind merits while despising JPs?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Even club and staff wielding jobs can put on a 119 weapon, and use their merit or other good WS and do sufficient damage to chain mobs that any average person would consider soloing. offensive trusts may not be great but they can still help.

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Where would you recommend a SMN go solo for safe max JP/hr?

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Where would you recommend a SMN go solo for safe max JP/hr?

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Woh Gates western side where the Umbrils are. I'd be surprised if Flaming Crush from a geared Smn didn't one shot them.

Summoners get resisted to shit in Woh Gates without a god tier MAcc build. Either way, it's certainly not a safe place for them to solo.

Go to Outer Ra' South quadrant on the first floor. There's a mix of DC Leeches and Acuex. Sub Scholar (with a nuking build) and nuke things to death with Fire and Ice. It's not as good as other magic DDs there, but it's the best easy camp I've found for SMN.

Focus + Malaise spoils me on soloing Umbrils, tend to forget the issues with MAcc besides in BCs. :( MAcc really that harsh without a strict build, to the point you'd be forfeiting to much damage to kill? Agree with that Acuex room in Outer though, it's very nice and casual. No aggro from any of the mobs, but still gotta watch for links.

I appreciate the advice. That sure doesn't sound like the smooth and easy JP some people on here are describing though. I mean it's not like the average SMN probably has a nuking set even if they should. Not an attack on you Byrth. I'm not hating the player, just the game.

Well, Flaming Crush is hybrid damage so it's going to do crap damage to Umbrils even if it hits because Avatar Ratio will be really low.

I did try to do Shiva/Ifrit on Acuex in Woh Gates, though, and typically I couldn't one-shot them even if I didn't resist. IIRC Acuex are weaker to Fire than Ice, and I think I could land Meteor Strike pretty regularly for full damage but not Heavenly Strike. Also, they sound link so they're kind of a pain in the ass. I know that parties of summoners do the Acuex camps there, but if Camiie is looking for easy then that's really not the way to go.

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Without nuking, SMN is left going /SAM and trying to melee + BP things to death. They would probably be best off targeting some low tier camp (like Stryx south of Waypoint #4 in Marjami), because Flaming Crush damage drops off pretty fast against higher level monsters. Summoner's damage output has always been horrible, but I bet they can still get 1 JP/hr with meleeing, which isn't that unusual for a melee job. In comparison, I can get 2-3 JPs/hr with nuking without bonuses, but I do have a full set of Hagondes +1 with pretty good MAB augments.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

OK so where exactly is this Woh Gates camp then? The thing with the community is that many of its members are extremely loathe to share their camps with others. You can ask but you'll generally get silence, ridicule, or lectured on how the secret of the camp must be kept to maintain its integrity.

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People can be dumb like that, but I do understand that crowded camps get annoying. >.> I have to deal with a PLD occasionally Ochain/AE burning all the bats in my spot, and it annoys me, but I just steal some of his mobs; if he's gathering them all up, then he can spare a few. If I had a little more confidence I'd just Sonic Thrust the lot of 'em for killshots... but I'd prolly find myself dead. xD

Anyway, I mentioned it but as it was a little snippet, I'll say it again. If you go to the Woh Gates subzone (by subzone, I refer to the secondary Gates zone that you use a crystal to teleport to rather than walking), and then go to the southwest corner, there is a large room filled with bats that con VT-IT. You'll have to use some acc gear and prolly food (I use pizza myself; long duration, atk/acc), but there's tons of mobs. They don't link, but they do sound aggro, so you have to be careful. Oh, and watch out for the true sight hippogryphs on the way, they're nasty.

As a note, despite the claim that people are so hush-hush with their camps, I found this up on the ffxiah forums. >_> Someone asked for good CP camps for THF, and someone brought up that it was a good piercing camp. So asking on various forums is prolly a good way to go. I know there was one person around here who was like "omg my bat camp" but most people don't seem to get all secretive, from what I've seen.

Guess I'll bump this topic now that we have confirmation that next update will include high tier elemental magic from Gifts.

I'm of two minds about this:
1) We really do need upgraded elemental magic. - I really feel that they either should have directly adjusted elemental magic (like last time), or made a more permanent change that causes it to scale based on iLevel or haste level or main weapon base damage or something, so that we don't have to abandon all the lower tier spells if the new ones are good (or ignore the new ones if they aren't better than the lower tier spells).
2) They shouldn't lock advancement behind Job Points. - If you think about it, our rate of gaining JPs now is about the same as merits at 75. It only cost 18 merits to unlock all the AMIIs or Tier 2 debuffs, though, and it will almost certainly cost more than 50JPs to unlock these Gift spells. It's more grindy than it used to be and the playerbase is less dedicated than we were.

So I'm kind of half-hoping the spells are good and half hoping they're bad. Ideal for me would be if the spells are strategically useful, but not overpowered (like AMIII for BLM), which would allow the update to be followed by another update that actually fixes the elemental magic damage issue.

Merits and JPs should be about adding to what's already a completely functional job, not trying to fix what's broken about it. If a job is attack starved you don't fix that through JPs and Gifts, you give it Attack Bonus traits beginning at whatever level range it starts falling behind. If a job needs stronger spells just to compete with other forms of DPS, you put the scrolls on vendors and make them super cheap.

I feel like I shouldn't even have to say this. It should just be common sense. As a contractor you don't fix someone's house by telling the owner to go out himself and add on a garage to prop the rest of the house up. You and your employees work to repair the structure and foundation.

I would think the easiest way to fix spell damage is to increase the amount of magic attack and damage on their ilvl stuff.

about the only way i see magic damage from nukes being viable again is if SE makes NMs that take reduced physical damage, but high magic damage. however, that magic damage will only be from spell magic damage, not from things like formless strikes or skill chains. would be rather nostalgic to bring back the magic burst days. So I suppose they would make it so the magic damage is only high when magic bursting.

Or could take away spell lock... which should be done anyways. Kinda unfair that players effectively are stunned everytime something is cast on them/they cast something but mobs nope. Just the other day had a mob chainspell nuke me and I couldn't do anything until it was done. And not being able to cast something for a couple of seconds after casting another spell even when you are chainspelling is really killing nuking dps. I mean players can melee for no mp cost or button pressing needed several hits a second

As far as spells I hope blm gets an AM III that is basically has stats more like T1-2 nukes in terms of dmg, costs, cast/recast times but with the -resists (maybe bump that up) and the low fixed enmity

just wanna say i farm for 4 hours 2 nights a week with my ls people coming w/e (im cping my pld lol) we have a good time and normally end up with 20 per run its not to terrible

I agree wholeheartedly with much feedback here, though they said they were going to now treat JPs basically as lvling your character pass 99. With that in mind new things like spells should reflect that idea. If they keep there original mind set in mind where JPs were suppose to be extra benefits to your character that weren't necessary, then things like new spells shouldn't require JPs.

I feel as though some of the most recent feedback is directly related that people should be able to have everything without committing more time towards "lvling" your job, IE BLM for new spells, and it is completely warranted since there original ideas were to not make JPs so necessary.

I personally enjoy the idea of it and would further like to see it enhanced to potentially benefit those people who spend more time on X job. People spending more time getting things like JPs on something like BLM should have potentially more power than joe on the corner that just hit 99. Mind you, again, this is all purely off them recently mentioning JPs/Gifts being similar to advancing past lvl 99.

It would have been nice if they'd been honest with us up front about their intentions for the system. I highly doubt that they changed their minds and 180'd their design philosophy out of the blue. Even if they did do something so irresponsible they should at least have said so and apologized for it.

It's pretty rotten to send players down one path by telling them JPs are something they shouldn't be worried about, to then send them down the opposite path that this is the new primary means of advancement. Some, I guess, saw the writing on the wall and maxed everything out right away. Others took SE's comments at face value and focused on what they thought were more important things. Now the latter group is behind the advancement curve because of their (misplaced?) faith in the dev team.

At the very least I think this drastic swerve in philosophy should net us an extended Double CP Campaign so that people who believed the initial hype can try to get caught up. I truly believe the CP rate needs to be permanently nudged upward since the importance of JPs will soon greatly increase, but I'm not holding my breath for that.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

It would have been nice if they'd been honest with us up front about their intentions for the system. I highly doubt that they changed their minds and 180'd their design philosophy out of the blue. Even if they did do something so irresponsible they should at least have said so and apologized for it.

It's pretty rotten to send players down one path by telling them JPs are something they shouldn't be worried about, to then send them down the opposite path that this is the new primary means of advancement. Some, I guess, saw the writing on the wall and maxed everything out right away. Others took SE's comments at face value and focused on what they thought were more important things. Now the latter group is behind the advancement curve because of their (misplaced?) faith in the dev team.

At the very least I think this drastic swerve in philosophy should net us an extended Double CP Campaign so that people who believed the initial hype can try to get caught up. I truly believe the CP rate needs to be permanently nudged upward since the importance of JPs will soon greatly increase, but I'm not holding my breath for that.

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wow, think you are entitled much? Doesn't matter that they changed the purpose of JP, things change all the time, just deal with it. Since SE has shown that they take the suggestions on the forums and do make changes I can't let things like this slide, because instant gratification people like you are ruining the game. We are at extremely high level and as such it should take a ridiculous amount of effort to go up even a slight nudge. So SE, please stop these double CP campaigns. Make these people work for their gains, don't just hand it to them. CP is already way to easy to get as is without any campaigns. The people who say otherwise are just lazy. If they really wanted the JPs, they'd go work for them. Watch the abyssea burned noobs cry and say "this is a game it shouldn't be work" lol. Like they have never leveled a job before. They just paid someone to do it for them.

I'm actually confused on the philosphy that if people knew they were going to be important they would of been grinding CPs over what exactly? Sitting in town afk? I am astonished on the idea that people would frown so negatively upon the idea of bring jobs to a new level. Shall we just sit at 99 and have all new designs revolved around progression of your character via lvls thrown at us? I would also like to be able to talk to an NPC that gives me free RMEs every day.

What people are saying is that when Job Points were announced, they were stated to be bring small improvements to jobs and wouldn't be required, as a result many people, myself included have rarely actively farmed CP, my most job pointed job is THF with 22 job points. The gripe we have now, and something many of us predicted, is that SE are going back on what they initially said job points would be and giving them increasing importance for each job, hell look at BLU, they were pretty useful from the get-go.

This one is directed at PlumbGame, you have a very bad example, it's not a case of farm job points or afk in town, it's a case of farm job points or farm dynamis or farm salvage or do delve or do high tier battlefields etc. There is so much content available right now that gives better reward for time spent than farming job points.

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What people are saying is that when Job Points were announced, they were stated to be bring small improvements to jobs and wouldn't be required, as a result many people, myself included have rarely actively farmed CP

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"required" or not, why wouldn't you want them? and even new spells and abilities aren't "required" if you can already beat the content without them. A new tier of black magic isnt really needed to be added in the first place since all black magic was rebalanced to make lower tiers more DPS efficient. Abilities, it will depend on what they offer mechanically. Regardless it's silly for you to avoid working on an obviously-intended-as-character-advancement system just because you thought it might not be "required." Shouldn't you be wanting them anyway, required or not?

I'm really sick of people fussing over this, its like if they never specifically said that, nobody would be complaining. I have only about as many job points on my main as you and you don't see me complaining about it.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

A new tier of black magic isnt really needed to be added in the first place since all black magic was rebalanced to make lower tiers more DPS efficient.

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Kind of off topic, but this isn't true. If you have a good fast cast set and can withstand the MP cost of nuking, higher tier spells are much better. People that spam Tier 1s either don't know what they're doing or don't have any kind of fast cast set (or, most likely, both).

Erm Just no

T1 nuke does 1.6k (ish), instant cast (0.1 with FC), near instant recast, 4 mp cost (stone)-- 400dmg/mp
T4 nuke does 3.5k (ish), 6 sec cast (1.2s with FC), 30s recast (cant spam it), 112 mp cost (stone) 31dmg/mp

Explain to me how chain casting a t1 nuke to infinity at over 10x the dmg/mp efficiency is worse than doing a few t4 every 15 seconds? Yes you can get more total dmg out in a minute, but you will also be out of mp all the time, while spaming t1 you will never run out of mp, and can always use the nuke the target is weak to.

well Roja

a) Most important content is zerg content so the necessity of constantly having MP is lower - you don't need to maintain MP for hours - just for the duration of the content
b) Most important content includes buffers - no one is bringing nukers anywhere without a BRD or some other kind of refresher - it's easy to have more than 10 MP a tick without gear included

It's actually incredibly easy to cap job points on any given job and get all the gifts. I did it on all 7 of my level 99 jobs in a few minutes. All I had to do was lie. Since there is literally no way at all for anybody to see the small stat increases that job points and gifts give you, this is just as good as actually getting the job points from the perspective of other players. This relentless squawking of "job points are too hard to get and now it's not fair because I'm required to get them" is all hogwash.

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a) Most important content is zerg content so the necessity of constantly having MP is lower - you don't need to maintain MP for hours - just for the duration of the content

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T1 nuke does 1.6k (ish), instant cast (0.1 with FC), near instant recast, 4 mp cost (stone)-- 400dmg/mp
T4 nuke does 3.5k (ish), 6 sec cast (1.2s with FC), 30s recast (cant spam it), 112 mp cost (stone) 31dmg/mp

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If this is even remotely close to believeable, the low tier nuke is doing more damgae per second than the high tier nuke; making the higher tier nuke more for when you suddenly need to do a lot of damage (e.g. due to a sudden damage vulnerability, weakness proc, etc).

They specifically made lower tier nukes scale better with magic damage +, this is what causes them to be more efficient. Prior to ilvl and magic damge+ gear, high tier was always the way to go. But things have changed, as far as I can see.

It is worth noting that yes, you only need to be just efficient enough to last through the content; but the lower tier spell isn't merely more efficient, it is more effective over time.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

It's actually incredibly easy to cap job points on any given job and get all the gifts. I did it on all 7 of my level 99 jobs in a few minutes. All I had to do was lie. Since there is literally no way at all for anybody to see the small stat increases that job points and gifts give you, this is just as good as actually getting the job points from the perspective of other players. This relentless squawking of "job points are too hard to get and now it's not fair because I'm required to get them" is all hogwash.

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The reason people are bringing this up again is becuase they plan to offer new spells/abilities with gifts. I'm still not bothered though. It's a post lvl cap progression system, just like merit points were at 75, therefore it was almost a certainty they would do something like this.

I really dont see the reason for the fuss about speed though. You can get a job point today faster than you could get a merit point when they were brand new.

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Originally Posted by Roja323

Erm Just no

T1 nuke does 1.6k (ish), instant cast (0.1 with FC), near instant recast, 4 mp cost (stone)-- 400dmg/mp
T4 nuke does 3.5k (ish), 6 sec cast (1.2s with FC), 30s recast (cant spam it), 112 mp cost (stone) 31dmg/mp

Explain to me how chain casting a t1 nuke to infinity at over 10x the dmg/mp efficiency is worse than doing a few t4 every 15 seconds? Yes you can get more total dmg out in a minute, but you will also be out of mp all the time, while spaming t1 you will never run out of mp, and can always use the nuke the target is weak to.

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The issue here is that you haven't accounted for the forced delay that accompanies any magic action (3 seconds) and seem to care about MP cost and recast. In reality, using mostly your numbers and ignoring MP cost and damage/MP (both irrelevant stats if you can support the MP expenditure, which is what I stipulated):

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T1 nuke does 1.6k (ish), 0.5*.2 = 0.1
T4 nuke does 3.5k (ish), 6*.2 = 1.2s

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So you've set up:
T1: 1600/3.1 = 516 DPS
T4: 3500/4.2 = 833 DPS

Therefore we seem to agree that T4 spells have higher DPS than Tier 1 spells, which is all that I stated.


If for some reason you want to exclusively spam one tier of spell, Tier 4s start out at 30 second recast. 25% gear Haste, which you probably have accidentally in your iLevel nuking gear, and Haste spell bring it down to 18 seconds, which means that you need to cycle between ~4 of them to never leave the tier.

If you want to talk about MP costs, Spaekona's Coat +1 or Seidr Cotehardie give 2% elemental damage back as MP. 1600*.02 = 32, so Stone is free in your case. 3500*.02 = 70, so Stone IV costs 42 MP per cast and will be free on many conserve MP procs ~20% of your casts). Therefore, 5 casts will take 168 MP and will take 21 seconds (7 ticks). 168/21 = 8 MP/tick. I don't know if your refresh set is good enough to hit that solo, but it's possible and you have to admit it's not unreasonable.

If you want to argue that we're talking exclusively about single-element fights, you're still best off casting high tier nukes and then going down to lower tiers only when your recast isn't up or MP doesn't permit.

The only time Tier 1s are the best is if you want to just sit there and brainlessly cast the same single spell over and over. (and even then they might lose to Tier 2s.)